Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

[LmL]

You keep insisting on denying the two moon thing, but you never address any of the evidence that shows two moons. You're usually a stickler for details.. I just can't understand why you refuse to see this, but don't have another explanation for all this stuff. What about ALL the arguments I made in the last post?

I am following the text... you are sticking to an idea you have despite what the text says. I don't understand. It's all right there.

[LmL]

Remember the worm-applesplitting scene in Oldtown with Alleras the sphinx? How if you split a worm in half, you get two worms? Lest there be ANY doubt that this is a reference to a comet splitting:

She could not believe they would inform on her … but that left only Darkstar, and if he was the betrayer, why had he turned his sword on poor Myrcella? He wanted to kill her instead of crowning her, he said as much at Shandystone. He said that was how I’d get the war I wanted . But it made no sense for Dayne to be the traitor. If Ser Gerold had been the worm in the apple, why would he have turned his sword upon Myrcella? (AFFC, Arianne)

The worm in the apple is a dark star. ;) And wouldn’t you know it – this dark star turned it’s sword on a fair maiden. What's all this about crowning a maiden being the same as killing her?

“Princess.” Ser Gerold Dayne stood behind her, half in starlight and half in shadow.

“How was your piss?” Arianne inquired archly.

“The sands were duly grateful.” Dayne put a foot upon the head of a statue that might have been the Maiden till the sands had scoured her face away. “It occurred to me as I was pissing that this plan of yours may not yield you what you want.”

“And what is it I want, ser?”

“The Sand Snakes freed. Vengeance for Oberyn and Elia. Do I know the song? You want a little taste of lion blood.”

That, and my birthright. I want Sunspear, and my father’s seat. I want Dorne. “I want justice.”

“Call it what you will. Crowning the Lannister girl is a hollow gesture. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Nor will you get the war you want. The lion is not so easily provoked.” Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. “This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel.”

I am no murderer of children. “Put that away. Myrcella is under my protection. And Ser Arys will permit no harm to come to his precious princess, you know that.” (AFFC, Arianne)

And then, right after that, we see the point of all this talk of crowning maidens being the same as killing them:

The moon had crowned the Moonmaid as they set out from the dust- dry ruins of Shandystone, striking south and west. Arianne and Ser Arys took the lead, with Myrcella on a frisky mare between them. (AFFC, Arianne)

A dark star wyrm, half starlight and half shadow, treacherously tried to kill the moon maiden with his glimmering sword. Blood betrayal, comets, luminescent swords, and moon death.

Moon death, everywhere. Shattering moons, bloody moons, swollen, fevered moons, moons that die giving birth to dragons, moons that drown, moons that give birth to krackens. None of this sounds like an eclipse. Something bad happened to the moon.

[Voice]

Right, but he is telling us the moon was destroyed. It's not a matter of needing anything - it's just about following the text.

Khal Drogo looked down at her. His face was a copper mask, (Drogo is the sun) yet under the long black mustache, drooping beneath the weight of its gold rings, she thought she glimpsed the shadow of a smile. “Is good name, Dan Ares wife, moon of my life,” he said. They rode to the lake the Dothraki called the Womb of the World, surrounded by a fringe of reeds, its water still and calm. A thousand thousand years ago, Jhiqui told her, the first man had emerged from its depths, riding upon the back of the first horse. The procession waited on the grassy shore as Dany stripped and let her soiled clothing fall to the ground. Naked, she (the moon) stepped gingerly into the water. Irri said the lake had no bottom, but Dany felt soft mud squishing between her toes as she pushed through the tall reeds. The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re- forming as her ripples washed over it. Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. The stallion’s blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth. Dany cupped her fingers and lifted the sacred waters over her head, cleansing herself and the child inside her while the khal and the others looked on. She heard the old women of the dosh khaleen muttering to each other as they watched, and wondered what they were saying. (AGOT, Daenerys)

Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps.

[...]

The tent grew dimmer, and sleep took her again. This time she did not dream. She floated, serene and at peace, on a black sea that knew no shore.

(AGOT, Daenerys)

Seek the hill of Nagga and the bones of the Grey King’s Hall, for in that holy place when the moon has drowned and come again we shall make ourselves a worthy king, a godly king.” He raised his bony hands on high again. “ Listen! Listen to the waves! Listen to the god! He is speaking to us, and he says, We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot! ”

(AFFC, THE PROPHET)

The point of Ser Gregor’s lance had snapped off in his neck, and his life’s blood flowed out in slow pulses, each weaker than the one before. His armor was shiny new; a bright streak of fire ran down his outstretched arm, as the steel caught the light. Then the sun went behind a cloud, and it was gone. His cloak was blue, the color of the sky on a clear summer’s day, trimmed with a border of crescent moons, but as his blood seeped into it, the cloth darkened and the moons turned red, one by one.

(AGOT, SANSA)

Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. (ADwD, Tyrion)

Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. (AGoT, Eddard)

“Hagen, blow your horn and make the forest shake. Tris, don some mail, it’s time you tried out that sweet sword of yours.” When she saw how pale he was, she pinched his cheek. “Splash some blood upon the moon with me, and I promise you a kiss for every kill.”

Asha took Tris Botley by the ears and kissed him full upon the lips. He was red and breathless by the time she let him go. “What was that?” he said. “A kiss, it’s called. Drown me for a fool, Tris..

The room was cold. Asha rose from Galbart Glover’s bed and took off her torn clothes. The jerkin would need fresh laces, but her tunic was ruined. I never liked it anyway . She tossed it on the flames. The rest she left in a puddle by the bed. Her breasts were sore, and Qarl’s seed was trickling down her thigh. She would need to brew some moon tea or risk bringing another kraken into the world.

"When you speak to King Stannis (Azor Ahai), mention if you would that he will owe me another thirty thousand dragons come the black of the moon."

“A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon,” blond Doreah said as she warmed a towel over the fire ….

Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. “The moon?”

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem … but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.

(ACOK, Bran)

Sure, I totally accept Moon's destruction. But I view this detail much differently.

The Moon, herself, is destroyed every month, then returns. That is her cosmic role, her mythological role, across countless ancient societies. For me, that is enough.

There are countless moons. Each dies. Then is replaced by a new one.

She's like a flower. She blooms, dies, then is replaced with a new blossom.

You keep insisting on denying the two moon thing, but you never address any of the evidence that shows two moons. You're usually a stickler for details.. I just can't understand why you refuse to see this, but don't have another explanation for all this stuff. What about ALL the arguments I made in the last post?

I am following the text... you are sticking to an idea you have despite what the text says. I don't understand. It's all right there.

No, I see the imagery. I appreciate the same details as you my friend, we simply view them in a different light.

You see two moons. The Qartheen Legend. The destruction of the Egg as it was fertilized by the Sun.

I see one moon. One moon that is ever fertilized and destroyed, only to be born again. This, in turn, has spawned a tale of multiple moons.

Just as the drowned moon rises again, her twin reflected in the water is really herself, and how she bleeds (flowers) every month, there is but one moon.

The moon, herself, is a constant reminder of duality. She grows and wanes. Lights the darkness, then Vanishes. She grows old, dies and is consumed, then returns fresh and new and young.

So while you interpret the dualities in the text as referring to two different moons, I interpret them as being part of the duality that comes with being the moon, or, for that matter, a woman.

Remember the worm-applesplitting scene in Oldtown with Alleras the sphinx? How if you split a worm in half, you get two worms? Lest there be ANY doubt that this is a reference to a comet splitting:

The worm in the apple is a dark star. ;) And wouldn’t you know it – this dark star turned it’s sword on a fair maiden. What's all this about crowning a maiden being the same as killing her?

And then, right after that, we see the point of all this talk of crowning maidens being the same as killing them:

We agree about all of this. I even agree that these particular passages do not signify an eclipse (though I think you'd agree there are others that do).

All of this, to me, sounds indicative of the dualistic nature of the moon. She looms eternal, yet appears to grow and die every month.

When the moon is crowned, and becomes the completed circle, she begins to wane and die. Clear reference to Lyanna.

A dark star wyrm, half starlight and half shadow, treacherously tried to kill the moon maiden with his glimmering sword. Blood betrayal, comets, luminescent swords, and moon death.

Moon death, everywhere. Shattering moons, bloody moons, swollen, fevered moons, moons that die giving birth to dragons, moons that drown, moons that give birth to krackens. None of this sounds like an eclipse. Something bad happened to the moon.

This latter paragraph describes what all women go through in their lifetime. And the prior sounds like us men poking them with our pointy ends. It's a tale as old as time.

Something bad did happen. But it happens to all women. And the moon represents them.

[Voice]

Oh, and before I forget, again! ..here's my analysis of your chapter analysis. It wouldn't let me post because of too many emoticons! I've never seen that before. So I apologize if some of my humor doesn't come thru... the site blocked my winks and smiles!

Voice of the First Men (my very good buddy) andI have some disagreements about certain things. Namely, he doesn't yet accept that there were two moons. It's okay, gives me something to work towards. Anyway, I went back over this chapter with Jon on the mountain. The language is ambiguous, we've got ice and fire language all jumbled in together. I'm going to go through and pull all the quotes about the mountain in this section and we can take a look and see if we can sort it out.

I want to jump into your chapter analysis LmL, so we'll have to agree to disagree on the Moonlight being Other-light for now. In reference to the mountain and fissure, though, I see the mountain lit by moonlight alluding to milkglass, and the fissure as a reference to the cold forge... but anyway... onward to the chapter analysis.

That's cool, but how do we know to associate these maps, which lead the way through the forest, to red comets and magic swords? Well, besides the fact that we already saw Lightbringer laying across the map where the Wall is... we want more proof!

The morning sky was streaked by thin grey clouds, but the pale red line was there behind them. The black brothers had dubbed the wanderer Mormont’s Torch, saying (only half in jest) that the gods must have sent it to light the old man’s way through the haunted forest. “The comet’s so bright you can see it by day now,” Sam said, shading his eyes with a fistful of books. “Never mind about comets, it’s maps the Old Bear wants.”

The Last Hero's dragon steel was the red comet sword, Lightbringer. Now that that is settled (LOL), back to the Jon chapter.

LOL indeed! haha

As a member of the mono-lunastic society, I much prefer the Old Nan's notion of the Red Comet. Rather than striking the one true moon, or being the last hero's sword, I see the Red Comet as simply being a harbinger of "Dragons."

Starting at the beginning, let's look at the language about the mountain and see what it tells us. I am going to highlight fire language in red, and icy things in blue. References to darkness will be in dark red, as I associate LB with sunset, nightfall, and shadow. White and silver and pale things, which are mostly Ice / Dawn associated, will be in light blue (but remember not all moonlight is automatically ice-associated). Ambiguous references to knives, blades, etc, and anything else worthy of note but not tied to ice or fire will be in black bold. References to greenseers or earth will be in green, just for kicks.

I have a feeling you really don't have to justify your use of color coding with this particular circle of friends, LmL haha

My analysis is included, below yours. Most I've tagged with footnotes. Your comments/analysis are in Georgia-Font...

They could see the fire in the night,¹ glimmering against the side² of the mountain like a fallen star.³ It burned redder than the other stars,⁴ and did not twinkle⁵, though sometimes it flared up bright and sometimes dwindled down to no more than a distant spark, dull and faint.⁶

“If he knew they’d lit a fire, he’d flay the poor bastards,” said Ebben⁷, a squat bald man muscled like a bag of rocks. “Fire is life up here,⁸” said Qhorin Halfhand, “but it can be death as well.⁹” By his command, they’d risked no open flames since entering the mountains.¹⁰

It made Jon remember cold nights long¹¹ ago at Winterfell,¹² when he’d shared a bed with his brothers. These men were brothers too, though the bed they shared was stone and earth.¹³

“That’s a long cruel climb by night,” Ebben said as he eyed the distant spark through a cleft in the rocks that sheltered them.¹⁴ The sky was cloudless, the jagged mountains rising black on black until the very top,¹⁵ where their cold crowns of snow and ice¹⁶ shone palely in the moonlight.¹⁷

“And a longer fall,¹⁸” said Qhorin Halfhand.¹⁹ “Two men, I think.²⁰ There are like to be two up there, sharing the watch.²¹”

1. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn

2. Sword imagery

3. Sword of the Morning imagery

4. Were the other stars red? In any case, I think we can tie this "extra redness" to Jon's wolf's eyes and the eyes of weirwoods.

5. like the light from a glass candle.

6. circle of life, death, reincarnation

7. Ebben. Interesting name. Homophone of 'Ebon'?

8. So is Ice... "up here" anyway...

9. So is Ice...

10. Same mistake Ser Waymar made... and it ended poorly for both commanding rangers.

11. Metathesis of "Long Night's cold." It made Jon remember Long Night's cold...

12. Shouldn't this be colored blue?

13. I wonder if Jon is homosexual. Unlikely, I know, but I think it would be an intriguing way to play with the trope. This isn't the only such passage for Jon.

14. Fascinating sentence. If you study it carefully, you see that Mr. Black Rock (Ebon, muscled like a bag of rocks) is literally talking about climbing, and ascending towards the fire (comet?). The "cleft in the rocks" evokes a V-shape, and, maybe my mind's in the gutter, but I'm seeing a Vagina kissed by fire (maybe even some "lord's kiss" imagery LOL).

15. Once were black (like Ebon? NW?).

16. Now are white (like Others?), and crowned (Night's King?). This isn't the only such passage. The true "King in the North" lives, and he is calling his banners, folks (devil emoji lol) Tyrion II AGOT:

Three days ride from Winterfell, however, the farmland gave way to dense wood, and the kingsroad grew lonely. The flint hills rose higher and wilder with each passing mile, until by the fifth day they had turned into mountains, cold blue-grey giants with jagged promontories and snow on their shoulders. When the wind blew from the north, long plumes of ice crystals flew from the high peaks like banners.

17. Night's King's moon-colored woman. Bran IV ASOS:

"No. This is the castle. There is a gate here."

Yes, thought Bran, but it's blocked by stone and ice.

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

18. "A woman was his downfall"

19. This fella with less fingers than a normal sized Man sure does have a lot of wisdom... hmm....

20. Why is this red, LmL? I also numbered it because it goes with my next point:

21. Might Jon be "sharing the watch" with a special someone? Two men, I think.

Two shadow men are headed to collide with the 'falling star' fire. As Jon represents AA in some cases, I'm tempted to see Stonesnake ( a comet name) and Jon (AA) as the two halves of the comet that split. One will die soon at the hands of the wildlings, and Jon lives on. Quorin's throat is cut, like a sacrifice, while Jon always keeps his oaths. Besides representing his "father," Azor Ahai (the red comet), he also represents the offspring of the comet fertilizing the ICE MOON, as his mother Lyanna was Rhaegar's ice bride. Thus, Jon's identification as the Oathkeeper half of the comet makes sense. The Oathkeepeer half is the one we see in the sky, and I predict it will hit the ice moon, symbolizing Jon's birth. When we get to the top, Jon is the one to take a hostage (life association with Oathkeeper comet, ice moon, death associated with fire moon, widow's wail).When they get to the top, we will see that the fallen star fire actually has THREE watchers, not two. Those are the three dragons born of the fire moon, the fallen star, the three moon meteors.

Very cool. It looks like we were thinking similarly with the comet imagery, and the need to ascend towards it.

No need for an Ice Moon though, I see the fertilization imagery there even without it (the cleft in the Mountain – aka "Jon’s Mother”).

One of the garrons whickered and pawed at the thin stony soil of the hollow¹ where they had taken shelter.² “The wolf will remain with us,³” Qhorin said. “White fur is seen too easily by moonlight.”⁴ He turned to Stonesnake⁵. “When it’s done, throw down a burning brand⁶. We’ll come when we see it fall.⁷”

I think this is an allusion to the slaying of Mithras' white bull. Jon, the comet, is on a path to collide with that star fire - and he must leave the white spirit animal behind to do this. I think Ghost will be sacrificed to resurrect Jon, though part of Ghost (his ghost, get it) will remain with Jon. The white bull Mithras slays becomes the moon after death. Thus, I identify the ice moon with the Last Hero, and the zodiac as his twelve companions. Throwing down a burning brand mirrors the Drowned God's burning brand he brought from the sea (after the moon meteor drowned in the sea).

1. Shouldn't this be green?

2. Shelter in the Hollow. I'm reminded of BR's cave.

3. What a peculiar line. So if the wolf remains, what part of Jon climbed that mountain?

4. This line makes no sense whatsoever. I think it's meaningful, but why would Ghost be seen more easily, by moonlight, than a normal-colored wolf? Does Ghost sparkle in the moonlight like new-fallen snow? Strange line...

5. Stone Dragon.

6. Burning Tree. The burning of weirwoods. Blood sacrifice. Dipping a bloody sword into the pool in the godswood.

7. Starfall. And more SotM imagery.

I'm with you on 12+1. Last Hero = the Sun = messianic figure. Still not sold on the Ice Moon and Fire Moon. There's just "the Sun" and "the Moon."

They each took a long coil of rope. Stonesnake¹ carried a bag of iron spikes as well, and a small hammer with its head wrapped in thick felt. Their garrons they left behind, along with their helms, mail, and Ghost. Jon knelt and let the direwolf nuzzle him before they set off. “Stay,” he commanded. “I’ll be back for you.” Stonesnake took the lead. He was a short wiry man, near fifty and grey of beard but stronger than he seemed, and he had the best night eyes of anyone Jon had ever known. He needed them tonight. By day the mountains were blue- grey, brushed with frost, but once the sun vanished² behind the jagged peaks they turned black. Now the rising moon had limned them in white and silver. The black brothers moved through black shadows amidst black rocks, working their way up a steep, twisting trail as their breath frosted in the black air.

​Stone + snake (dragonglass) + iron = magic sword. I've told Voice about this before, but that is the recipe for a magic sword - stone, glass, and steel. This pattern is found many places in the book - I won't bog this long comment down with them, that's a future essay. But this is the formula, take my word for it (for now). A stone snake made of iron is a damn meteor, it should be clear. He's hammering the mountain, which suggest the mountain is a sword, to be hammered into shape. Not sure if you can hammer milkglass or obsidian, but you can hammer steel. This is all sword forging stuff here. It ambiguous which sword though, as both contain steel and both need hammering. The stone and steel of Dawn comes from the comet itself, while the stone (and maybe iron /steel) for Lightbringer came from the black stone, a moon meteor. Both are stone snakes. Either could fit.

I take "twisting" to refer to snakes... but both a comet and a meteor are snakes.

Not much to add regarding this portion. You know I'm in agreement on the stone, glass, and ore idea. Though, I see Dawn as the original ancestral sword of House Stark. The original "Ice." Rather than a comet and steel mixture, I tend to view Dawn/Ice as a cold-fusion forged milkglass blade, like that of an Other. I believe Night's King was the first man to ever wield this sword, and that he was disarmed by a Dayne. Thus, the man who disarmed him kept the blade, and became the hero who ended the long night, and the Sword of the Morning.

I do not see magic swords as being "hammered." Obsidian is called a word (that we do not yet have) in Valyrian that means "frozen fire." If they called it "frozen fire" that means it can melt. Dragonfire would be the way, and the forge. I have an equal and opposite forging method in mind for milkglass, but that's likely related more to LmL's future thread, as well as one I'm working on regarding the Origin of the Others.

Footnotes for this passage:

1. coil of rope...Stonesnake... This sounds like dragon imagery.

2. "sun vanished" ... eclipse imagery. We may disagree as to the 'nature' of the long night, but I think we'd agree these last few lines contain a lot of long night imagery.

The Skirling Pass¹ was really a series of passes, a long twisting course that went up around a succession of icy wind- carved peaks² and down through hidden valleys that seldom saw the sun³. Apart from his companions⁴, Jon had glimpsed no living man since they’d left the wood behind⁴ and begun to make their way upward. The Frostfangs⁵ were as cruel as any place the gods had made⁶, and as inimical to men⁶. The wind cut like a knife up here,⁷ and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children⁸. What few trees they saw were stunted, grotesque things⁹ growing sideways out of cracks and fissures¹⁰. Tumbled shelves of rock ¹¹often overhung the trail, fringed with hanging icicles that looked like long white teeth¹² from a distance. Yet even so, Jon Snow was not sorry he had come. There were wonders here as well. He had seen sunlight flashing¹³ on icy thin¹⁴ waterfalls as they plunged over the lips¹⁵ of sheer stone cliffs, and a mountain meadow full of autumn wildflowers, blue coldsnaps¹⁶ and bright scarlet frostfires¹⁷ and stands of piper’s grass in russet and gold¹⁸. He had peered down ravines so deep and black they seemed certain to end in some hell¹⁹, and he had ridden his garron over a wind- eaten²⁰ bridge of natural stone with nothing but sky to either side.²¹

Hidden valleys that seldom see the sun is very reminiscent of the Worldbooks description of the Shadow beyond Asshai, a valley to steep that the sun only shines into it at high noon, and briefly.

They left behind the trees and then saw no living man, while stunted trees grew from the cracks and fissures - the same place we saw the jagged icy sword. Greenseers and Others are interconnected. It cannot be denied at this point. "The White Walkers of the woods." Indeed.

Long white teeth - sounds like someone is entering the dragon's gullet. This usually denotes the collision part of the metaphor is about to happen. Do Ice dragons have white teeth? Hard to say. The emphasis may simply be on the teeth - since this is a chapter in the tundra, it's hard to know if George is encoding a metaphor about fire things in icy language (he does that, in both directions) or if we are supposed to think of a white-toothed dragon (which can only be an ice dragon, dragon's teeth are black diamond). This problem plagues the entire metaphor. George definitely does hide metaphors about fire dragons in an ice ascend and vise versa, so... it's tricky.

Once he had watched a shadowcat stalk a ram, flowing down the mountainside like liquid smoke²² until it was ready to pounce. Now it is our turn to pounce. He wished he could move as sure and silent as that shadowcat, and kill as quickly²³. Longclaw was sheathed across his back, but he might not have room to use it.²³ He carried dirk and dagger for closer work. They will have weapons as well, and I am not armored.²³ He wondered who would prove the shadowcat by night’s end, and who the ram.²³

The ram is a sacrificial animal, while the shadow cat is basically another way of saying "Lion of Night." The constellation shadow cat probably represents Leo, the Lion. And flowing like liquid smoke sounds a bit like a shadow sword, which is associated with Azor Ahai's sword, as I have shown above. The shadow cat consumes the dead, very Lion of Night. The shadow cat is a blade which kills the sacrificial animal. Jon wonders who will be the sacrifice. Well, it's going to be the fallen star fire moon at the top who gets sacrificed - Jon is the shadow blade, the lion of night embodiment, Azor Ahai, prince of darkness.

On the other hand, the shadow cat is a shadow that moves silently. Like an Other. And Jonof course is associated with Others as well as Azor Ahai. This makes me wonder - is there anything to connect Azor Ahai to the Others?

1. The Screaming, Wailing Pass

2. icy wind-carved... this is the Cold Forging of Others

3. Long Night imagery

4a. Last Hero imagery

4b. more LH imagery... setting out into cold "dead lands"

5. Fangs made of Frost. Fangs made of Ice. Stick them with the pointy end. Ice Swords, the Cold Forge, and Ghost's fangs have been left behind...which is...even more LH imagery (he even lost his dog!)

6a. There are no gods, but there is something cruel that made, shaped this place: the winds of winter. 1st Prologue:

Until tonight. Something was different tonight. There was an edge to this darkness that made his hackles rise. Nine days they had been riding, north and northwest and then north again, farther and farther from the Wall, hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders. Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not. Gared had felt it too. Will wanted nothing so much as to ride hellbent for the safety of the Wall, but that was not a feeling to share with your commander.

6b. "inimical to men" reminds me of:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

7. Hmm, sounds like "cold butchery."

8. The skirling of mothers:

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

9. Is this a crack at Tyrion? Nah. That would be f'ked up. But it might allude to their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

10. Cold Forge. And "cracking" like the words (are wind... winds of winter) of the Others in the prologue.

11. Tumbled rock sounds like a typical forge. Hammering, folding metal, hammering again. Luckily, all precipitous ground, such as this, will be covered in snow soon for the Others to tread lightly upon. (insert devil emoji here haha)

12. "long white teeth" = the milkglass Longswords of Others. (and "Dawn"... aka the original "Ice"). Hints of Longclaw, and Ghost's own frostfangs again as well.

13. Glittering. Like sunlight on new-fallen snow. Oh wait... Not snow:

14. rather, the icy thin swords of Others, once again...

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

That's Jon's direwolf's, Ghost's light, ghost light, Moonlight...

Moonlight = Other-light, my friend.

15. icy thinwaterfalls ...plunged over the lips = The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking...

And Linguists = Cool4 LOL

16. Blue flowers, growing north of the chinks of ice...

17. scarlet frostfires... need I say more? I will. Scarlet needs no introduction, it's Fire and Blood. Frostfire is "Frozen Fire" and frozen fire happens to be what Valyrians call obsidian. Here, it's red (or bloody), and growing with "Blue Coldsnaps" ...once again, the devil is in the details. Red and Blue. And Jon.

18. No silver? C'mon George! I guess the frosted dew of morning, on this very grass, will take care of the Targaryen phenotypical references...

19. Only one? not seven?! Oh well... Yet, it's a hell on earth. Or is it merely a dark crypt?

20. Wind-eaten. Winds eat in Westeros. You heard it here first.

21. Nothing but sky to either side might be how the red comet feels. Or, if it was dark, it could've been "nothing but black sky to either (the Other?) side."

22. That's smoke from the Cold Forge.

23a-d. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR JON! There's only one creature I know of that moves silent as a shadowcat, kills as quickly, never sheathes its longsword, wears armor, and stalks prey...

And Jonof course is associated with Others as well as Azor Ahai. This makes me wonder - is there anything to connect Azor Ahai to the Others?

Catelyn studied the faces. The Father was bearded, as ever. The Mother smiled, loving and protective. The Warrior had his sword sketched in beneath his face, the Smith his hammer. The Maid was beautiful, the Crone wizened and wise. And the seventh face … the Stranger was neither male nor female (like a dragon), yet both, ever the outcast, the wanderer from far places (the ninth wanderer from outside the solar system), less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes. It made Catelyn uneasy. She would get scant comfort there.

Egads.

Cheers! I can only agree. Jon is "ever the outcast." Jon becomes a "wanderer from far places." Then, of course, these things are true of the Others as well.

We better just move on.

Sometimes the mountain folded back on itself and they lost sight of the fire, but soon or late it would always reappear. The path Stonesnake chose would never have served for the horses. In places Jon had to put his back to the cold stone and shuffle along sideways like a crab, inch by inch. Even where the track widened it was treacherous; there were cracks big enough to swallow a man’s leg, rubble to stumble over, hollow places where the water pooled by day and froze hard by night. One step and then another, Jon told himself. One step and then another, and I will not fall.

This is the strongest evidence that the mountain is Lightbringer. Folded steel is associated only with Valyrian steel. The fire going out and re-appearing I think refers to Lightbringer being broken, and then reforged, as I have repeatedly suggested. Here we also see a connection between water and ice (gee, what an insight) which may allude to DeepOnes as allies of the Others - the cracks where the water pools and freezes can swallow your leg.

Here, the mountain and the fire are not exactly being merged together. The mountain is cold, and hides the fire. Just as the sun hid it's face for a generation during the long night. Jon must imitate an Ice Spider to traverse it. Cracks big enough to swallow a man's leg, again sounds like the cracking voices of Others mounted on their Ice Spiders. Except, these hallows pool water and freeze by night. Jon takes one step, then another. He must tell himself, will himself to take one more step, then another... he's sliding forward on silent feet... reminiscent of our traumatized Samwell leaving the massacre at the Fist of the First Men.

It all sounds quite Other-ish still LmL, rather than Lightbringer-ish, as far as forging goes. Water is literally freezing inside of the "cold stone."

There was nothing below but yawning blackness, nothing above but moon and stars. “The mountain is your mother,” Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days past. “Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won’t drop you.” Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he’d always wondered who his mother was, but never thought to find her in the Frostfangs. It did not seem nearly so amusing now. One step and then another, he thought, clinging tight.

Of course the best evidence for the mountain as LB is followed by the opposite - the mountain is Jon's mother. Jon's mother is the ice moon, Lyanna. Jon seems to be in space right now - above the darkness of the LN, below the moon and stars - sounds like he a comet, flying through the air. The wind is whipping at him right now; I didn't include the quote.

[FTFY: colored the first colored phrase blue instead of red...]

Absolutely everything about this paragraph evokes the Others, and comets don't hug mountains...

The narrow track ended abruptly where a massive shoulder of black granite thrust out from the side of the mountain. After the bright moonlight, its shadow was so black that it felt like stepping into a cave. “Straight up here,” the ranger said in a quiet voice. “We want to get above them.”

Stonesnake had passed the rope around the smooth spike of rock he was waiting on, but as soon as Jon reached him he shook it loose and was off again. This time there was no convenient cleft when he reached the end of their tether, so he took out his felt- headed hammer and drove a spike deep into a crack in the stone with a series of gentle taps. Soft as the sounds were, they echoed off the stone so loudly that Jon winced with every blow, certain that the wildlings must hear them too. When the spike was secure, Stonesnake secured the rope to it, and Jon started after him. Suck on the mountain’s teat, he reminded himself.

Jon is hammering his mother? And it makes him wince.. I think Jon is playing the dual role of Azor Ahai, comet that hit the ice moon, and the offspring of said union, AA reborn in an icy sheath, as I refer to Jon with his fire sword and ice armor. His driving iron into the ice moon makes sense with Jon as comet and mountain as ice moon. But if the mountain is the fire moon / fire sword (the sword is made from the moon rock), Jon as Azor Ahai is hammering it, folding it into shape, making a sword. :dunno: Smooth spike of rock is another stone sword motif. It's black rock, it should be noted.

The rock is black, but only because darkness has fallen, imo. Granite is typically grey, particularly natural mountain outcroppings. And we can't forget that earlier, these mountains were described as "cold blue-grey giants with jagged promontories and snow on their shoulders."

Once his foot slipped as he put his weight on it and his heart stopped in his chest¹, but the gods were good and he did not fall². He could feel the cold seeping off the rock into his fingers³, but he dared not don his gloves; gloves would slip, no matter how tight they seemed, cloth and fur moving between skin and stone, and up here that could kill him. His burned hand was stiffening up on him⁴, and soon it began to ache. Then he ripped open his thumbnail somehow, and after that he left smears of blood wherever he put his hand⁴. He hoped he still had all his fingers by the end of the climb.

Is that the fiery hand of R'hllor??⁵ Here's a nice foreshadowing of his "cold hands" that he will get one day, when his heart stops. Heh. JON IS DEAD⁶. But he's coming back, as a Coldhands⁷. Now that that is settled...

1. colored this line blue again... a stopping heart sounds bluer to me than red... personal preference, and it fits with the following

2. Sounds like Jon was just praying to some cold gods

3. literal "cold hands"

4a-b. Fire (burned) and Blood (smears). But Fire and Blood are proving weaker than this cold rock. Thus far, Ice is winning.

5. Idk...that is one cold hand to belong to R'hllor. Although, Gared does say nothing burns like the cold.

6. I disagree.

7. Entirely possible, but for all this Other-imagery, I don't see it happening. Coldhands isn't half dragon after all, right? And Coldhands seems loyal to his vows, while that same argument gets a little tricky with Jon.

Up they went, and up, and up, black shadows¹. creeping across the moonlit wall of rock². Anyone down on the floor of the pass could have seen them easily, but the mountain hid them from the view of the wildlings by their fire.³ They were close now, though. Jon could sense it⁴. Even so, he did not think of the foes who were waiting for him, all unknowing⁵, but of his brother at Winterfell. Bran used to love to climb. I wish I had a tenth part of his courage.

Here's the funky part. The wall of rock is black granite, but lit by moonlight. What to make of that? It still looks black, but lit up... so grey? I dunno.

I do know that the mountain is blocking the light - eclipsing it. This fits with the mountain as ONE of our moons (but which one)?⁵ I am pretty sure the fire moon was in front of the sun when it was hit, but the ice moon was very close, possibly blocking the sun in a double eclipse (although the story of Serwyn makes me think it must have been right next to the eclipsed sun, not in front, but I am not sure or that.)

1. The Fire-side does not have a monopoly on shadows, nor even blackness.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

2. The "cold blue-grey giants with jagged promontories and snow on their shoulders" are now moonlit.

3. The mountain here is serving as a barrier between them, and fire.

4. Jon and his heightened senses...

5. It is almost as if Jon is playing the part of Ser Crackles.

6. The sun hides its face = eclipse, as Jon plays the part of 'an other' coming for the first time in the (long) night. This imagery again points towards an eclipse being the cause of the Long Night, rather than atmospheric debris.

Stonesnake reached down a hand to help him up¹. He had donned his gloves again, so Jon did the same. The ranger moved his head to the left, and the two of them crawled along the shelf three hundred yards or more²., until they could see the dull orange glow beyond the lip of the cliff³.

Dull glow beyond the lip of the black cliff - sounds like an eclipse all right⁴. And we see Jon has his black hands now.. say.. nice moleskin gloves, those remind me of the gloves of a man who broke his sword against an Others' sword... Ser Waymar = Jon = Last Hero = Azor Ahai?⁵

One was asleep, curled up tight and buried beneath a great mound of skins⁶. Jon could see nothing of him but his hair, bright red in the firelight⁷. The second sat close to the flames, feeding them twigs and branches⁸ and complaining of the wind in a querulous tone⁹. The third watched the pass, though there was little to see, only a vast bowl of darkness¹⁰ ringed by the snowy shoulders of the mountains¹¹. It was the watcher who wore the horn.¹² Three¹³. For a moment Jon was uncertain. There was only supposed to be two.

Two of these three are fire associated - red hair, and feeding the fire. Notice we are burning trees up here. The third "dragon spawn" of the fallen star fire is the "watcher." This term has been applied to both Others and NW, and anything that evokes an eye reminds me of the god's eye and the thousand eyes of scarlet flame of the meteor shower. So it's easy for me to say "two dragon meteors and a meteor shower," but who knows. But we do have a watcher with a horn, worthy of note of course.

1. I'd say, this, is also fire related. The dragon reached down and helped Jon up...

2. Scuttling up the ice like spiders....

3. We agree on the eclipse, but it seems far away from the pointy end, if this mountain is indeed a sword.

4. Glad we agree: the long night was actually an eclipse... So, now that that's settled (*wink wink*)

5. Yes. But again, this demonstrates the inefficacy of normal metal against the Others, rather than prove the Last Hero's magic sword was broken. Armed with ordinary blades, the Others picked off LH's companions one by one, including his own horse and dog. Just before they killed him, the cotf rescued him. Then, later, once armed with dragonsteel, the Others could not stand against him - according to the annals.

6. Reminds me of the wights outside of BR's cave.

7. GRRM really likes to hit us over the head with Ygritte's hair. Why? I can't help but wonder if bearing hair that is kissed by fire is somehow important.

8. This sounds like R'hllorism. Those crazy cult members take a basic human trait, then exploit it, and extrapolate all sorts of dogma. Fools.

9. I'm reminded of Bran's querulous-correction of Old Nan...

"Oh, my sweet summer child," Old Nan said quietly, "what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods."

Nope, wrong Old Nan. The lordling has no time for your senior moments... the "white walkers" weren't around yet...

"You mean the Others," Bran said querulously.

"The Others," Old Nan agreed. "Thousands and thousands of years ago, a winter fell that was cold and hard and endless beyond all memory of man. There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels. Women smothered their children rather than see them starve, and cried, and felt their tears freeze on their cheeks." Her voice and her needles fell silent, and she glanced up at Bran with pale, filmy eyes and asked, "So, child. This is the sort of story you like?"

No need to argue the connections between the Others and these 'winds' out of the North, I assume.

10. Long Night, WF Crypts.

11. Stony shoulders can be found in the crypts, too...

12. The Watcher wore The Horn...that wakes the sleepers. And there just happen to be sleepers beside him to drive the point home. I think we've just seen what an ambush from the Others might look like for the Watchers on the Walls. How many times do they blow the horn for Others again?

13. Three... how can this not be blue LmL!?

Stonesnake touched his arm, pointed at the wildling with the horn. Jon nodded toward the one by the fire. It felt queer, picking a man to kill.

Stonesnake moved as fast as his namesake, leaping down on the wildlings in a rain of pebbles. Jon slid Longclaw from its sheath and followed.

Stonesnake, one half of the comet, leaps down first in a rain of pebbles, almost like a comet rail of debris. Jon draws his Longclaw, making him a true dragon comet (dragons having the longest claws out there).

It all seemed to happen in a heartbeat. Afterward Jon could admire the courage of the wildling who reached first for his horn instead of his blade. He got it to his lips, but before he could sound it Stonesnake knocked the horn aside with a swipe of his shortsword. Jon’s man leapt to his feet, thrusting at his face with a burning brand. He could feel the heat of the flames as he flinched back. Out of the corner of his eye, he saw the sleeper stirring, and knew he must finish his man quick. When the brand swung again, he bulled into it, swinging the bastard sword with both hands. The Valyrian steel sheared through leather, fur, wool, and flesh, but when the wildling fell he twisted, ripping the sword from Jon’s grasp.

Azor Ahai loses his sword. This is a metaphor I see a lot. A LOT. This is what creates doubt about the Last Hero's identity. I am SURE that the dragon steel of the LH is AA's Lightbringer, but the LH may not be AA. AA seems to have lost his sword at some point.

Jon attacking a man with a torch reminds me a little bit of the Others chopping through Grenn's torch.

This scene reminds me of Grenn's torch as well. And even Jon's "long claw" could be seen as an Other's "long sword."

On the ground the sleeper sat up beneath his furs¹. Jon slid his dirk free, grabbing the man by the hair and jamming the point of the knife up under his chin as he reached for his— no, her². His hand froze. “A girl.”³

“A watcher,” said Stonesnake.⁴ “A wildling. Finish her.” Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes.⁵ Blood ran down her white throat⁶ from where the point of his dirk had pricked her.⁷ One thrust and it’s done,⁸ he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya,⁹ though they looked nothing at all alike¹⁰. “Will you yield?” he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn’t? “I yield.” Her words steamed in the cold air¹¹ .

Arya is a moon child - but I do not yet know which moon. It seems like in various scenes, she or Sansa may play the role of one or the other. Still working on this.

1. Jon wakes the sleepers, but not as a Watcher... as an other.

2. Dude looks like a lady lol

3. A pale woman glimpsed in the (long) night... gotta love NK imagery.

4. The Stone Dragon names her a Watcher, and wishes for Jon to finish her.

5. Fear is for the long night, according to Old Nan. Yet here, I can't help but think of Viserys, and Dany's fear of waking the dragon in him. Here, Jon shows us his softer side. Unlike Viserys (his uncle?), Jon's dragon does not wake. In fact, he completely ignores the words of his own stone dragon. Interesting... Might his father have done the same?

6. Red blood, white throat...Weirwood colors. Ghost's colors. Jon is the weir-wolf. Thankfully, unlike NK, Jon has found himself a hot-blooded pale woman, instead of a cold corpse bride. This woman bleeds normal blood, not steamy black tar like Mel, nor blue-white vapor like an Other. Wild though she may be, Jon's "bride" is human. And unless LH=NK, the last hero never took a bride. And make no mistake, Jon has just stolen Ygritte. What's another word for stealing a woman? How about 'abduct'...hmm...

7. Must...Not...Make...Crude...Japes.... He stuck her with his pointy end!

8. Oh c'mon!?

9. Arya=Lyanna. Why, pray tell, would Jon think of his little sister at this very moment? Makes no sense really, unless we replace Arya with Lyanna, and remember that Jon's mother experienced a very similar event. Whether it was willingly or forcefully, Lyanna was stolen too. In fact, I'd be willing to bet Jon is experiencing a blood memory of his mother's fear... "Fear" with "Fire" in her eyes....

10. Indeed. Ygritte looks nothing like Arya. But, Arya=Lyanna, and they are willful women, as is this one beneath Jon. Sigmund Freud would have a field day with Jon at this moment.

11. And what words steam? "I yield." Lyanna likely yielded her maidenhead. I'm thinking of flowering winter roses for some reason.

“I’m Jon Snow.” She flinched. “An evil name.”

"Hey there cutie... I'm Azor Ahai." She flinched. "An evil name."

LOL, mayhaps Ser. But I see this more as Ygritte's aversion to the inhuman Sidhe made of Ice.

The ranger thrust a long branch into the fire. “Not that she will. I’ve known wildlings to bite off their own tongues before they’d answer a question.” When the end of the branch was blazing merrily, he took two steps and flung it out over the pass. It fell through the night spinning until it was lost to sight.

Say goodbye to the fire moon! There she goes... falling to earth. The falling meter is a lot like a burning brand, or a burning tree. Grey King much? The burning tree, the lightning, the fiery moon meteors - they are all the same thing.

I see this more like flaming arrows, descending from the Wall.... The red comet overhead... like my avi LOL. But you may well be right. Time will tell.

“You ought to burn them you killed,” said Ygritte. “Need a bigger fire for that, and big fires burn bright.” Stonesnake turned, his eyes scanning the black distance for any spark of light. “Are there more wildlings close by, is that it?” “Burn them,” the girl repeated stubbornly, “or it might be you’ll need them swords again.” Jon remembered dead Othor and his cold black hands. “Maybe we should do as she says.”

Remember that time last paragraph when Azor Ahai lost his sword? Well, it might be needed again when the Others come!! Again, Azor Ahai was defeated, his sword take and probably reforged, and then used against the Others by the Last Hero. Case closed.

What's interesting to me, in this passage, is how quick Jon is to heed (his mother's?) advice from a willful, wild woman, just after ignoring the stone dragon's advice. It would seem, regardless of his parentage, Jon continually chooses the North over other influences. In short, he's a momma's boy LOL

A low rumbling growl echoed off the rock. Shadowcat, Jon knew at once. As he rose he heard another, closer at hand. He pulled his sword and turned, listening. “They won’t trouble us,” Ygritte said. “It’s the dead they’ve come for. Cats can smell blood six miles off. They’ll stay near the bodies till they’ve eaten every last stringy shred o’ meat, and cracked the bones for the marrow.”

Shadowcat, in addition to being the lion of night and a shadowsword which is infused with the power of shadow fire, sounds like a dragon. Anything that roars is probably a metaphor for a dragon - that's what I have found. Interestingly, we have two shadow cat / shadow swords, and thenJon (Azor Ahai) draws his sword - three shadowswords. Given that I think the ToJ is a reversed reenactment of the Battle at Battle Isle... this is perfect.

At the ToJ, the wielder of LB (an ice warrior) came with 6 wraiths with shadowswords. They were met by three in white, their leader (Dayne, a fire warrior) wielding an ice sword. But this is backwards - the ice warrior should be wielding Ice and be dressed in white (like Others), while the fire warrior should have Dark LB and the wraiths with shadow swords. Here, we see the switch - Jon, as AA, leading the party of three, all with shadowswords. Follow?

I agree with the spirit of this analysis. Jin and Jan. Dayne would have been armored in white ice (as a member of the KG), wielding the original Ice. I have long held that the reason Ned returned Dawn to Starfall is because he knew no Stark would ever be worthy of the blade, due to NK's disgrace.

Where I disagree is in the idea that the new version of Ice=LB. I'm familiar with the argument, and the points in favor have been made in Heresy many times as well. But I am not convinced. The main reason for my skepticism is that I don't think a specific sword is required to be Lightbringer. I think any sword can become LB. It is the wielder, and his/her sacrifice that imbues the blade with power -- and fire.

Just look at Beric Dondarrion. If anyone fit the description of AAR, it was he. And his blade had both fire and heat.

Now, do I believe Beric was AAR? Nah. But that's not because he doesn't fit the description. Rather, I think the Holy R'hllors are hell bent on resurrecting a messiah that may not exist. I think we will (and do) see many characters fit AA's job description. Rather than a single savior, there will be many who come and go in their respective niches. Jon seems to be on that path in the North, and I tend to think he will never step foot south of the Neck.

The black stones had turned to grey and the eastern sky had gone indigo when Stonesnake spied the rangers below, wending their way upward. Jon woke his captive and held her by the arm as they descended to meet them.

The black stone (that the BSE worshipped) turned to a grey steel sword - Ned's sword - as Dawn broke after the LN. This is the reforging of LB with dragon glass. Remember the description of Ned's sword - very dark, smoky grey. This color transformation could also fit with the idea that Azor Ahai founded the Starks - black to grey - but I don't like this idea. If Azor was theLH, it's possible, because the LH is likely the founder of house stark, right?

Ygritte is named as a "Sleeper." Then a "Watcher." Now, she is the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn... incarnate. Jon descends the Wall with his stone (sleeping) dragon, and Ygritte, whom Fire kisses, and who at this moment is the only light source, save the coming Dawn.

To your analysis, I think it is all but certain LH=BtB and that he did indeed found House Stark. But I'm one of the nuts who's been spreading LH=BtB=NK for a long time :devil:

But when he glanced up, he saw Ygritte watching with eyes as wide and white as hen’s eggs.

Ebben drew his dagger. “A steel kiss will keep her quiet.”

Compare to:

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.”

Clearly, this party of three by the fallen star fire represent the moon... BUT WHICH ONE? All the fire imagery at the top of the mountain suggests the fire moon, but we have seen lots of icy imagery too.

So Ygritte, "She whom Fire Kisses" ...now has eyes like eggs - which bring life. Ygritte is LB (the good version) in this passage. Jon literally just descended the cold, frozen mountains of the long night, with Her in his hand, and brought the dawn. The Eastern Sky has gone from Black to Indigo. Jon is returning light to the realms of men where his brethren had been cloaked in darkness.

One possibility here is that George is telling us things about both the fire and ice swords and moons at the same time, because they are identical but opposite reflections of one another. The Bones mountains section of TWOAIF is all sword metaphor, and it too seems to have clues about the icy sword and the fire sword. One thing is certain: a comet struck a moon and dragon came forth. But we are trying to press on to the next level of detail, and that can be tricky.

Now you see it, my friend. The cold forge is the equal and opposite process of the hot forge. Jin and Jan. The Wall is like a mirror. Or better still, a lense. Through this (milkglass) lens made of Ice, armed with fire and dragonglass, we glimpse equal and opposite (negative) reflections.

On one side, there is "the Self."

On the other side, there is "the Other."

On one side there is "life."

On the other side there is "anti-life."

Bodies and Anti-Bodies.

Hot Red Blood, and, Cold Blue Ice.

On one side, there is an Iron Throne, the seat of generations of dragonlords, Valyrian Kings, forged in the Black Dread's Fire.

On the other side, Winter is Coming... the greatest danger of all. Half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

Hopefully some of you can take a look at this chapter analysis here and have some insight.

How'd I do?

[LmL]

You did great - tons of terrific stuff. I do understand the difference in your view - I am perceiving two moons which reflect a dual nature, while you're seeing one moon that re-forms and reflects the dual nature.It's almost a semantic difference, but a big one. I will respond in more detail later, but first, thanks so much for taking the time. I agree with a ton of stuff in here, and you've given me some new ideas, which I'll discuss. But just real quick, while I have a minute - Ygritte is NOT lightbringer. She has eggs eyes, and fire kisses her. The moon was kissed by the sun's fire, and the moon is an egg. She is a moon. All three of these peole burning weirwoods at the fallen star fire are fire-aspected. That is a fire moon. When it's busted up by the stone snake (def agree on this as well as Ebben's name), a burning brand descends. All that bloody sword and tip and thrust stuff is Ygritte being impregnated - she can only be the moon. the fire moon, which GAVE BIRTH to dragons, one of which was made into Lightbringer. She is not Lightbringer. She is Lightbringer's mommy. Just like Daenerys is.

Moonlight is other light NOW because the moon which is left is an ice moon. But sometimes, when george needs to depict a flame sword vs. and cold sword, the moonlight shines on the steel, to imply a fire sword. That's all I am saying.

Here's the eclipse thing. The fire moon is smaller and farther away. When the comet struck the fire moon, there was either a double eclipse happening, with the ice moon in between earth and the fire moon over sun = god's eye, to there was about to be a 2x eclipse, so the fire moon was in God's Eye formation but the ice moon was right next to it. Serwyn, a KG armored in white, is the ice moon, his mirror shield (heliotrope = sun mirror) was the fire moon, implying they were right next to each other, or one if front of the other - depends on the viewing angle. The dragon was right in front of the mirror shield, with Serwyn behind the shield. Then the spear (comet) hits the dragons's eye (god's eye, meaning the fire moon in front of the sun) and we get death of the sun (it goes dark) and the fire moon. Serwyn is haunted by the ghosts of those he had slain, because the debris from the fire moon (the fire moon being part of the dragon / God's eye, which was slain by Serwyn) obscured the moon from sight. The ice moon is the last hero, and he was cut off from his 12 companions just like the 12 constellations were obscured from view.

So, when the cold stone giant mountain obscured the view of the fire people sitting at a red star fire, that is the ice moon coming in between earth and the fire moon. Remember, Jon's mother is Lyanna, the ice moon, and the mountain is Jon's mother. Mountains are swords and moons both. Because we have two swords, sunset and dawn, and two moons, and two hearts, winter and summer, on and on... The ice moon mountain is obscuring the view of the fire moon, until the shadow dragon pair break it up and send down a burning brand.

It's tricky because this is like a triple metaphor, at minimum. We are hearing about the astronomical events - comets impacting moons and such - and also the physical human events of the LN - the LH, AA, NQ, etc. Love all your NQ finds in there btw. The point is, this is really complex. It's easy to cross up what is referring to what.

At the least, it's this kind of back and forth analysis that shows what I always say about Martin - everything is intentional, down to the detail and sentence and choice of words. There are soooo many passages like this in the book, where each line is telling you something hidden. People really haven't even BEGUN to really analyze these books in the detail they warrant.

:cheers: GreatJon VotFM and I'll get back to you later while I'm watching basketball. :devil: :devil: :devil:

[LmL]

The three fire aspected watchers broken up by the stone snake mirrors Daenerys, the moon queen, being IMMOLATED in Drogo's pyre. That is not an eclipse either. That is a moon burning, ritual sacrifice, and three dragons waking from stone eggs. The stone eggs which gave off a thousand scarlet flames. The dragons stones with hundreds of fires like fallen stars. An eclipse was part of it, but there cannot be any doubt that the moon was burned. A least, I don't see how there can be any... Even if your idea of one moon that is broken and reformed, or perhaps burnt and then eventually frozen over is true, it was still burnt, and struck by a comet / sword / penis. That's the central part of the story, the stabbing of impregnation. That is no eclipse. That's fucking and fighting, fighting and fuking, as TV show Bron would say.

[vuk]

That penis is kind of Lightbringer came to my mind, also :-)

[LmL]

Voice, someone on Reddit mentioned (in response to a theory about an eclipse being the cause of the LN) that a moon could not eclipse more than a small area of a planet at a time. To cover even an entire hemisphere, it would have to be almost as big as the planet. What say you to this? It seems obvious, but I had thought of it. You're basically getting into binary planet territory, which is an idea thrown out early on, but the symbolism really doesn't suggest that.

I really think that all your thinking about dual aspects of female nature is totally spot on, and I think the two moons are meant to reflect that. But one of them was a "Dark Sister." Aegon had two wives, one associated with icy things and one with fire, as I have shown you in PMs, as did Rhaegar. Rhaegar took the second wife, his ice bride, after filling his head with prophecy. He thought he had birthed two heads already from his fire bride (Elia of Dorne, Sunspear in particular) and needed an ice bride. You could say, in a roundabout way, that Rhaegar's "son" from his fire bride, Aegon, turned out to be fAegon, a blackfyre. Black fire is what I think we got from the sun's impregnation of the fire moon. But the point is - fire bride, ice bride for the solar king.

The exception is Drogo. Not sure what's up with that, admittedly. Every other solar King has two wives. Stannis, for example, has the red woman - fire, of course - and his cold, frigid wife. It's hard to say what Stannis is a symbol of - he's like part Nights King and Part AA.

[Voice]

You did great - tons of terrific stuff. I do understand the difference in your view - I am perceiving two moons which reflect a dual nature, while you're seeing one moon that re-forms and reflects the dual nature.It's almost a semantic difference, but a big one. I will respond in more detail later, but first, thanks so much for taking the time. I agree with a ton of stuff in here, and you've given me some new ideas, which I'll discuss. But just real quick, while I have a minute - Ygritte is NOT lightbringer. She has eggs eyes, and fire kisses her. The moon was kissed by the sun's fire, and the moon is an egg. She is a moon. All three of these peole burning weirwoods at the fallen star fire are fire-aspected. That is a fire moon. When it's busted up by the stone snake (def agree on this as well as Ebben's name), a burning brand descends. All that bloody sword and tip and thrust stuff is Ygritte being impregnated - she can only be the moon. the fire moon, which GAVE BIRTH to dragons, one of which was made into Lightbringer. She is not Lightbringer. She is Lightbringer's mommy. Just like Daenerys is.

:cheers:

I've rethought this, and I don't think Ygritte is LB either in this chapter. Even when I wrote it, I was thinking of her more as a light source. Fire in the Darkness. The Hope of Life that follows Death.

So even in my interpretation, now that I think about it more, Jon would be LB, as he "brings the light," which is Ygritte, at first, then is dawn.

The three fire aspected watchers broken up by the stone snake mirrors Daenerys, the moon queen, being IMMOLATED in Drogo's pyre. That is not an eclipse either. That is a moon burning, ritual sacrifice, and three dragons waking from stone eggs. The stone eggs which gave off a thousand scarlet flames. The dragons stones with hundreds of fires like fallen stars. An eclipse was part of it, but there cannot be any doubt that the moon was burned. A least, I don't see how there can be any... Even if your idea of one moon that is broken and reformed, or perhaps burnt and then eventually frozen over is true, it was still burnt, and struck by a comet / sword / penis. That's the central part of the story, the stabbing of impregnation. That is no eclipse. That's fucking and fighting, fighting and fuking, as TV show Bron would say.

Tale as old as time. But I see the stabbing/conception as one event, and the long night as another. The moon begins small. Then grows to maturity. That would be the time to impregnate the bitch, I'd think ;) then, slowly, she fades. Only to be reborn, as beautiful as ever.

That penis is kind of Lightbringer came to my mind, also :-)

I think it's intended, really. I mean GRRM included the stick with the pointy end reference in every book, save ACOK.

Voice, someone on Reddit mentioned (in response to a theory about an eclipse being the cause of the LN) that a moon could not eclipse more than a small area of a planet at a time. To cover even an entire hemisphere, it would have to be almost as big as the planet. What say you to this? It seems obvious, but I had thought of it. You're basically getting into binary planet territory, which is an idea thrown out early on, but the symbolism really doesn't suggest that.

I really think that all your thinking about dual aspects of female nature is totally spot on, and I think the two moons are meant to reflect that. But one of them was a "Dark Sister." Aegon had two wives, one associated with icy things and one with fire, as I have shown you in PMs, as did Rhaegar. Rhaegar took the second wife, his ice bride, after filling his head with prophecy. He thought he had birthed two heads already from his fire bride (Elia of Dorne, Sunspear in particular) and needed an ice bride. You could say, in a roundabout way, that Rhaegar's "son" from his fire bride, Aegon, turned out to be fAegon, a blackfyre. Black fire is what I think we got from the sun's impregnation of the fire moon. But the point is - fire bride, ice bride for the solar king.

The exception is Drogo. Not sure what's up with that, admittedly. Every other solar King has two wives. Stannis, for example, has the red woman - fire, of course - and his cold, frigid wife. It's hard to say what Stannis is a symbol of - he's like part Nights King and Part AA.

I'll comment on this when I have more time...

[Voice]

Voice, someone on Reddit mentioned (in response to a theory about an eclipse being the cause of the LN) that a moon could not eclipse more than a small area of a planet at a time. To cover even an entire hemisphere, it would have to be almost as big as the planet. What say you to this? It seems obvious, but I had thought of it. You're basically getting into binary planet territory, which is an idea thrown out early on, but the symbolism really doesn't suggest that.

Indeed. While on Earth eclipses are caused by the Moon, I believe that the Moon, and all phases of it, were still visible during the Long Night, so it couldn't have caused the Long Night.

As we discussed in your first thread, the lunar cycle on Planetos doesn't really make sense. But that's okay, it's fantasy. And binary planetary models are precisely the sorts of "scientific thinking" the author has warned us about. I think that's barking up the wrong tree.

In regards to the cause of the long night, "when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness" there can be but one cause, in my opinion, and you're not gonna like it. Just as the seasons on Planetos are governed by magical forces, rather than physical, so too is the Long Night.

On our own planet, there are ice ages and warming trends. In Alaska, the darkness can last for months, without an eclipse. Martin has combined these features into a single, magical one. So I know it isn't a very satisfying answer to analytical brains, such as ours, but I think magic alone caused the Long Night.

I really think that all your thinking about dual aspects of female nature is totally spot on, and I think the two moons are meant to reflect that. But one of them was a "Dark Sister." Aegon had two wives, one associated with icy things and one with fire, as I have shown you in PMs, as did Rhaegar. Rhaegar took the second wife, his ice bride, after filling his head with prophecy. He thought he had birthed two heads already from his fire bride (Elia of Dorne, Sunspear in particular) and needed an ice bride. You could say, in a roundabout way, that Rhaegar's "son" from his fire bride, Aegon, turned out to be fAegon, a blackfyre. Black fire is what I think we got from the sun's impregnation of the fire moon. But the point is - fire bride, ice bride for the solar king.

:cheers: I think we mostly agree on this stuff, despite our different perspectives on Moon vs Moons. For me the duality is enough to account for it all, even the fiery conception. And really, I think GRRM is far too Earth-centric in his writing to give Planetos two moons. I don't want to bog down your thread with this stuff, but that is my thinking. I guess in my mind, all three of Dany's handmaidens are correct:

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."

"It is known," Jhiqui agreed.

All one need do to account for the "strawhead version" is remember the dualistic nature of the moon, and women. They wander too close to Suns, become Wives, and hatch Children. Dany wandered close to Khal Drogo, conceived a child, then entered a literal fire with her husband and child to bring forth actual Dragons.

The Lysene girl wasn't wrong, and neither were the Dothraki girls.

After all, if any celestial body can be both an egg and a god... crack open and remain whole... it is her.

The exception is Drogo. Not sure what's up with that, admittedly. Every other solar King has two wives. Stannis, for example, has the red woman - fire, of course - and his cold, frigid wife. It's hard to say what Stannis is a symbol of - he's like part Nights King and Part AA.

Stannis is the Fool and King for a Day. Ever see the movie the Wicker Man?

Fret not, my friend, Drogo is no exception. His and Dany's marriage truly epitomizes this concept. The Khal had two wives.

"My brother Rhaegar was a fierce warrior, my sun-and-stars¹," she told him. "He died before I was born. Ser Jorah says that he was the last of the dragons."

Khal Drogo looked down at her. His face was a copper mask², yet under the long black³ mustache, drooping beneath the weight of its gold rings, she thought she glimpsed the shadow⁴of a smile. "Is good name, Dan Ares wife, moon of my life⁵," he said.

They rode to the lake the Dothraki called the Womb of the World, surrounded by a fringe of reeds, its water still and calm. A thousand thousand years ago, Jhiqui told her, the first man had emerged from its depths, riding upon the back of the first horse.

Remember the duality of the Moon and Womanhood. Dany is Fire (and Blood) because she is the Targaryen dragonlord of ancient Valyria, yet, she is also the Moon of Drogo's Life (Moon: Wife of Sun). Rather than requiring an Ice Moon and Fire Moon, Daenerys fills the role of each. As all women do, imo.

Footnotes:

1. Sun and Stars: Husband of Moon. During the long night, they can't get it on, hence the frozen dead lands and the long period of famine and infertility, and, extremely high infant mortality rates. During normal seasons, famine is as rare as infertility, and life follows normal (menstrual) cycles.

2. Drogo=Sun: Husband of Moon, but this Moon is also Fire.

3. Long Night.

4. the Others.

5. Dan Ares: Moon Wife of Sun and Stars. She's fertile, then she's not, then is again... She's fearful, then wakes dragons... She dreams of Fire and dreams of Stars.

Lastly, if anything is evidence that the Moon can be overcome by flame, then emerge again, renewed, it is the "Unburnt" Mother of Dragons. Mother of Death. Mother of Life. I don't think people realize how much GRRM rips off American Indian stories LOL, but the entire last chapter of AGOT is straight out of the Changing Woman (Moon Maiden) stories from the southwest (GRRM's neck of the woods):

"You will be my khalasar," she told them. "I see the faces of slaves. I free you. Take off your collars. Go if you wish, no one shall harm you. If you stay, it will be as brothers and sisters, husbands and wives." The black eyes watched her, wary, expressionless. "I see the children, women, the wrinkled faces of the aged. I was a child yesterday. Today I am a woman. Tomorrow I will be old. To each of you I say, give me your hands and your hearts, and there will always be a place for you."

These words are straight from the Moon's mouth. Who else sees all as her khalasar, children, women, the wrinkled faces of the aged? Who else do we give our hearts to so freely? Who else welcomes us like the Moon? There is but one, but her faces are many.

[LmL]

I had trouble following a lot of that last one, Voice. I didn't get what you're seeing here:

5. Dan Ares: Moon Wife of Sun and Stars. She's fertile, then she's not, then is again... She's fearful, then wakes dragons... She dreams of Fire and dreams of Stars.

And shadows definitely don't necessarily refer to others, nor does the long black mustache. I mean it could, but these are sun shadows, not Others.

Remember the duality of the Moon and Womanhood. Dany is Fire (and Blood) because she is the Targaryen dragonlord of ancient Valyria, yet, she is also the Moon of Drogo's Life (Moon: Wife of Sun). Rather than requiring an Ice Moon and Fire Moon, Daenerys fills the role of each. As all women do, imo.

Moon wife of sun is fire moon. Each moon is a wife of the sun - just as Rhagar and Aegon had two wives. The role of "moon wife of sun" does not belong to the ice moon.

Also, the eclipse thing does not work here, because the watchfire is a red fallen star fire, not a sun. The cold stone mountain obscures the red fallen star fire. Until the comet streak by at the last minute. hitting the fire moon instead, which consists of three fiery things. Then a burning brand falls to earth. The ice moon cold stone mountain remains unharmed. Serwyn was haunted by the ghosts of those he slew, but he was not killed.

And yes, your explanation for the Long Night is a bowl of warm jello. Meaning no offense... but every other piece of magic is tied to astronomy, nature, or blood. For the long night to have no coherent physical corollary would be unprecedented and inconsistent with the series. Moreover, you kept referring to the cold giant mountains as the thing obstructing the fire, implying a physical eclipse... but now you're saying the sun just... went dark? How does that fit any of the text? Af if that's so, then where does the comet fertilizing the moon come in?

The other massive, massive problem with only one moon: the eighth and ninth wanderer pattern. The Bloodstone E was the ninth Emperor who killed the eighth... I mean, I think we've talked about this one. This pattern pops up a lot. And then there's that short story he wrote in the eighties, with the seven gods, the 8th outcast god, and the wanderer between worlds. Have you seen that one? It's crazy. Shadow fire, the 7 vs the 1 outcast, hell, the ninth wanderer is named "Sharra" (sound familiar?) and she has red and black hair. Shit is crazy - Martin has brainstormed this long ag.o.. it's called the Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr, and you should check it out. It's a really ice short story with tons of implications for ASOIAF. I am telling you brother. Eight wanderers, the ninth takes out the eighth and leaves seven. It is known.

The eight wanderer is the sphinx, which is associated with Ishtar and the moon (that's amethyst-eyed Ishtar, btw)

[LmL]

A thought on Storrhold's Point / Hardhome: I suspect this is the heart of the shadow in the north of Westeros. Like Asshai, Storrholds Point is a peninsula, Stygai and Hardhome are located near or at the tip of their respective peninsulas. In spite of it's far north location, Hardhome's climate is mild and can support a good sized population. Hardhome itself kind of mirrors Stygai. After the mysterious conflagration that took place 600 years ago, ash rained on the Haunted forest for half a year (we can imagine diffuse light and even darkeness during this time because of the ash). Ash. The poisoned river flowing through Asshai is of that name. Unspeakable things seem to be going on at Hardhome, including talk of demons and ghouls, all those horrible screaming noises etc. Ghouls are not necessarily ghosts but are thought of as evil spirits or phantoms,that rob graves and feed on dead bodies.

This brings me to Mother Mole: I find the name very suspicious - could she be living up to her name? A mole - an undercover agent in the guise of a woods witch with a prophecy designed to lure the wildlings to their doom at Hardhome? This certainly appears to be happening. Dead things in the water....

Also interesting in this regard is the Lysene ship, the Elephant, which together with the Goodheart takes women and children on board, only to enslave them. The Elephant seems to reach its destination while the Goodheart is intercepted by Braavosi ships. The name Elephant brings the Volanteen rulers to mind, the so called passive, unwarlike faction of that City. Who knows what they are really up to?

And another thing which may or may not be related: the underground river/stream in Bloodraven's cave is home to white blind fish. So is the Ash in Asshai. The blind fish of the Ash are described as blind, twisted and hideous to look upon. I don't really know where the cave is in relation to Hardhome and the fish appear to be pleasing enough to the eye to eat. But there seems to be some connection there.

Great connections Evolett, I've noticed some of those too. The blind fish, and certainly the screaming caves and their demons. I expect there may be firewyrms up there. I really think that Maester who went up there, came back to the Citadel and told everything he knew and came back had something to do with this. The Citadel is like the damn illuminati.

Mother Mole take is interesting. Hadn't thought of that. I guess we shall see.

There is also defiles and canyons which never or hardly ever see the sun in Jon's chapter that Voice and I discussed a few comments up. I thought that reminded me of Stygai.

[LmL]

Ice Moon Prophecy

The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

“Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees.

Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

“Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!” His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face.

“I hear you.” The room was dim, his pallet hard. Grey light leaked through the shutters, promising another bleak cold day. “Is this how you woke Mormont? Get your feathers out of my face.” Jon wriggled an arm out from under his blankets to shoo the raven off. It was a big bird, old and bold and scruffy, utterly without fear. “Snow,” it cried, flapping to his bedpost. “Snow, snow.” Jon filled his fist with a pillow and let fly, but the bird took to the air. The pillow struck the wall and burst, scattering stuffing everywhere just as Dolorous Edd Tollett poked his head through the door. “Beg pardon,” he said, ignoring the flurry of feathers, “shall I fetch m’lord some breakfast?”

“Corn,” cried the raven. “Corn, corn.”

“Roast raven,” Jon suggested. “And half a pint of ale.” Having a steward fetch and serve for him still felt strange; not long ago, it would have been him fetching breakfast for Lord Commander Mormont.

“Three corns and one roast raven,” said Dolorous Edd. “Very good, m’lord, only Hobb’s made boiled eggs, black sausage, and apples stewed with prunes. The apples stewed with prunes are excellent, except for the prunes. I won’t eat prunes myself. Well, there was one time when Hobb chopped them up with chestnuts and carrots and hid them in a hen. Never trust a cook, my lord. They’ll prune you when you least expect it.”

“Later.” Breakfast could wait; Stannis could not. “Any trouble from the stockades last night?”

“Not since you put guards on the guards, m’lord.”

“Good.” A thousand wildlings had been penned up beyond the Wall, the captives Stannis Baratheon had taken when his knights had smashed Mance Rayder’s patchwork host.

The white wolf is being chased by the moon here. The moon’s shape is not described, but sometimes it can be as fat as a snowball or a slender as the blade of a knife. These moon phases are all about sacrifice - the full moon is about to give birth, and the sickle moon denotes the sickle of sacrificial killings as well as the horns of the sacrificial animal, usually a bull. Ghost is fleeing the moon - and the moon promises snow. He’s running towards the cave of night where the sun is hidden - its almost like Ghost is looking for the sun here.

I tend to thin that Ghosts’s sacrifice will be needed to wake Jon, just as Mithras had to slay his white bull. The bull then became the moon. I definitely see Ghost as Jon’s white bull, so the moon chasing him and promising snow seems like kind of a threat to me.

This theme of antagonism carries through to the waking dream. The raven, who was playing the role of snow moon, was screaming in Jon’s face and landing on him with a thump, almost like a pice of the moon is falling from the sky and hitting Jon. Then Jon attacks the raven - is Jon playing the role of Azor Ahai, attacking the moon? He throws something at the raven, which explodes in a “flurry” of feathers. We aren’t given the color of the feathers, but when you think of pillow feathers, you think of white feathers, and they burst in a flurry which filled the room, scattering stuffing everywhere.

That sounds like a snowstorm, doesn’t it?

But why is the snow moon role played by a black raven?

Now, we have white ravens and black ravens, and the two do not like each other. As the white ravens only send one message: winter is coming, I think it's fair to say they represent winter, and ice. The black ravens are the messenger ravens - messengers, like the comet. Hermes, or Mercury, was the messenger of the gods and actually wore a winged helmet and was associated with ravens, because of the messenger / herald connotations. Mance Raydar wears a winged helm and has raven iconography. He also plays music, just like Hermes. He’s a crow that flew down from the wall. In the dream, the Wall appears pale and icy in the moonlight, then a black raven fled down from the moon.

Both Mercury and Venus have orbits inside of earth’s orbit, and therefore exhibit the “morningstar” behavior (Venus is much brighter of course). Thus, just as George has transplanted Venus / Morningstar mythos on to the comet, I think he’s borrowing from Hermes as well. In fact I think the crows and ravens are sometimes used as meteor / comet metaphors. Stormcrows and second sons both serve Daenerys, the dragon queen.

A clue connecting black messenger ravens and meteors:

Bran thought for a moment, trying to remember. “A maester forges his chain in the Citadel of Oldtown. It’s a chain because you swear to serve, and it’s made of different metals because you serve the realm and the realm has different sorts of people. Every time you learn something you get another link. Black iron is for ravenry, silver for healing, gold for sums and numbers. I don’t remember them all.”

The ravens lands on Jon’s chest, scrabbling, like a dragon meteor (is this the black stone that fell from the sky that was worshipped by the BSE /AA?), and then Jon, who may be acting as AA here, throws a pillow against the wall and scatters (presumably) white feathers everywhere. It’s almost like the pillow is the white raven here, who burst apart to make a snow storm, while Jon suggests "roast raven” for the black one. The black raven should burn - thats the fire moon - while the ice moon should be more of a bursting, not an incineration, just like the pillow. You could also view Jon throwing the pillow as the sun throwing his sun spear comet, and the wall against which the pillow burst represents the ice moon (the icy Wall of Westeros seems to parallel the ice moon). Thus, Jon is throwing a comet at an icy thing and the result is a snowstorm.

Meanwhile, Edd offers to serve roast raven with three corns, which are seeds. If the roast raven is the burned fire moon, those three corn seeds must be the dragon seeds born of the fire moon. The dragon does indeed “eat” flaming meteors - one, at least. It then produced more flaming meteors. I don’t want to make a bad joke about corn looking the same on the way out as on the way in, but I think I just did. The raven which usually eats corn (meteors) will be served up, burnt, with three corns (meteors). In this way, it makes sense for the black raven to be both the fire moon and the meteors which came from it’s body.

We get another visual of three things hiding inside one thing:

Well, there was one time when Hobb chopped them up with chestnuts and carrots and hid them in a hen. Never trust a cook, my lord. They’ll prune you when you least expect it.”

But right before this, there’ the breakfast menu:

“Very good, m’lord, only Hobb’s made boiled eggs, black sausage, and apples stewed with prunes. The apples stewed with prunes are excellent, except for the prunes. I won’t eat prunes myself.

This breakfast consists of boiled eggs (white, and moon=egg), black sausages (black, and sausages = penis)(sorry), and then we have a stew, containing apples (red) and prunes. Apples are associated with comets, at least in the Alleras the Sphinx apple-archery scene. The apples represented the head of the comet, specifically. The prunes are the really bad thing, it seems. The arrows were transfixing the apples in the Alleras scene, and here we hear about the prunes being “sliced” up to be hidden in the hen. Now I’m not experienced at decoding food porn, but are these dreaded sliced prunes the meteor shower which gave us the black stone worshipped by the BSE? Each time, the prunes appear with three other things: once with two things, inside the hen (the third thing), the other it was in the stew with the apples. When Hobb offers us the breakfast with 2 items and a stew (with 2 ingredients), it is replacing the hypothetical breakfast of three seeds and on roast raven. The roast hen with three things inside it matches nicely; the stew thing is not as good of a match, although it seems Ed eats the apples but not the prunes. Any ideas here?

Then we see that Azor Ahai (Stannis, the "Stranger come to judge us,” the “wanderer from far off places,”) has smashed Mance Raydar’s host and now there are a thousand captives (meteor shower). So here again we a raven (Mance) playing the role of "moon which creates meteors.” Sometimes something which appears to be one big thing is actually many small things:

The city had seemed like one big island from where the Titan stood. But as Yorko rode them closer, she saw that it was many small islands close together, linked by arched stone bridges that spanned innumerable canals. Beyond the harbor, she glimpsed streets of grey stone houses built so close they leaned one upon the other. To Arya's eyes, they were queer looking, four and five stories tall, and very skinny, with sharp peaked tile roofs like pointed hats. She saw no thatch, and only a few timber houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. "They have no trees," she realized. "Bravos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea." Yorko swung them north of the docks and down the gullet of a great canal, a broad, green waterway that ran straight into the heart of the city. They passed under the arches of a carved stone bridge, decorated with half a hundred kinds of fish and crabs and squids. A second bridge appeared ahead, this one carved in lacey, leafy vines, and beyond that a third, gazing down on them from a thousand painted eyes.

(AFFC, Arya)

These three bridges are (I think) the three meter impacts on earth - one landed in the water, associated with fish and squids and crabs; one landed on land (need to work out the details here) and one created a meteor shower of a thousand eyes. Arya sees these bridge as she goes down the “gullet” (dragon alert) of the canal which leads to the “heart of the city.” The city which appears to be one unified thing but is actually a bunch of small things. That’s when she sees the three forging representations.

So coming on the heels of the snow pillow bursting with a flurry of (white?) feathers, we have this idea of one things being smashed and becoming a thousand. And then, two more wildlings turn up:

“Two more wildlings turned up to surrender,” Edd went on. “A mother with a girl clinging to her skirts. She had a boy babe too, all swaddled up in fur, but he was dead.” “Dead,” said the raven. It was one of the bird’s favorite words. “Dead, dead, dead.”

I’m not sure of the significance of the dead boy, probably something else entirely, but the “wildling host” moon should give us a thousand somethings and two other somethings, which we have here. It was broken by someone playing the role of AA, which fits.

So, in summation, am I seeing two different moon explosions here - one leading to a meter shower and two meteors, and one leading to a snow storm? Or are those feathers from the pillow also a meteor shower, and the fact that the raven-moon promised snow has to do with the fact that snow came during the long night, after the meteors?

I tend to see that Azor Ahai reborn (the red comet returned in the story, which represents Jon) cracks the ice moon and causes a snowstorm.

[Voice]

I had trouble following a lot of that last one, Voice. I didn't get what you're seeing here:

5. Dan Ares: Moon Wife of Sun and Stars. She's fertile, then she's not, then is again... She's fearful, then wakes dragons... She dreams of Fire and dreams of Stars.

Sure, let me explain. If we put Dany under the microscope, we see that she represents duality as well. So, the Khal had two wives.

"My brother Rhaegar was a fierce warrior, my sun-and-stars¹," she told him. "He died before I was born. Ser Jorah says that he was the last of the dragons."

Khal Drogo looked down at her. His face was a copper mask², yet under the long black³ mustache, drooping beneath the weight of its gold rings, she thought she glimpsed the shadow⁴of a smile. "Is good name, Dan Ares wife, moon of my life⁵," he said.

They rode to the lake the Dothraki called the Womb of the World, surrounded by a fringe of reeds, its water still and calm. A thousand thousand years ago, Jhiqui told her, the first man had emerged from its depths, riding upon the back of the first horse.

Clearly, Dany is Fire. GRRM often equates Fire with fertility and virility. And we know that genetically-speaking, she is a Targaryen dragonlord of ancient Valyria. I see fire-light and moon-light as being two different (and sometimes opposed) light sources. Dany is Fire, because of her ancestry (and in this passage, fertility). Yet, she is also the Moon of Drogo's Life (Moon: Wife of Sun). Rather than requiring a separate Ice Moon and Fire Moon, Daenerys fills the role of each.

So in my fifth footnote, I was picturing:

Dan Ares: Moon Wife of Sun and Stars. This is simply what Drogo calls Dany, combined with what Dany calls Drogo.

I'm reminded of this: A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

Rather than be cold, Dany is Fire, and Fertile, as is Drogo. But the Moon is not hot, the moon is cold, barren. As an egg, she possesses the potential to be fertile, before her eventual destruction.

Dany epitomizes this concept of duality.

She's fertile, - conceives Rhaego

then she's not, - according to MMD

then is again... - hatches dragons

She's fearful, - afraid to wake Viserys' dragon

then wakes dragons... - wakes the dragon within her. I see this as being two-fold. First she wakes dragons with her Womb (last chapter of AGOT), then feels the call to "wake the dragon" again at the end of ADWD.

She dreams of Fire - her dragons, Viserys, Rhaego, Khal Drogo

and dreams of Stars. - Quaithe, Khal Drogo

I didn't talk about the last paragraph in this passage, but it only highlights this idea. The Womb of the World is calm (like the Moon, or Barren Dany), but gave birth to the first "Stallion that Mounts the World." So we have the calm before the storm, then the chaos of the bloody bed.

And shadows definitely don't necessarily refer to others, nor does the long black mustache. I mean it could, but these are sun shadows, not Others.

I think we are viewing Drogo differently. In this chapter, his face is the Sun. His face (the Sun) is obscured by something described as "long black". When I hear of any long blackness obscuring the Sun, my mind goes straight to the Long Night.

Dany takes this idea even further, when she notices that this Long Black (Night) is hiding shadows.

The imagery works for other interpretations of course. I'm not one to claim my way is the right way, but this is what the passage conjures in my mind. Though, admittedly, I tend to see Long Night imagery everywhere... LOL

Remember the duality of the Moon and Womanhood. Dany is Fire (and Blood) because she is the Targaryen dragonlord of ancient Valyria, yet, she is also the Moon of Drogo's Life (Moon: Wife of Sun). Rather than requiring an Ice Moon and Fire Moon, Daenerys fills the role of each. As all women do, imo.

Moon wife of sun is fire moon. Each moon is a wife of the sun - just as Rhagar and Aegon had two wives. The role of "moon wife of sun" does not belong to the ice moon.

Yet, Drogo becomes a shell (empty egg) of himself at the end of AGOT. His Fire, gone. Dany is made barren by Drogo's transformation as well...barren as the Lands of Always Winter.

Also, the eclipse thing does not work here, because the watchfire is a red fallen star fire, not a sun. The cold stone mountain obscures the red fallen star fire. Until the comet streak by at the last minute. hitting the fire moon instead, which consists of three fiery things. Then a burning brand falls to earth. The ice moon cold stone mountain remains unharmed. Serwyn was haunted by the ghosts of those he slew, but he was not killed.

Actually, I think this passage in the chapter analysis is quite open to interpretation, and supports both of our points.

Cold Jon and his stone-snake make the ascent as Jon sheds his blood. The Fire (Sun) is obscured, then not, then is again as Jon ascends with his stone-snake. Jon uses the cover of darkness to surprise and abduct his own sleeping (dormant), pale woman (egg, moon), who just so happens to be "kissed by fire" (dragon).

Stonesnake (aka "Dragonstone," "sleeping stone dragon") takes a stick, drinks the fire of the Sun (watchfire) with it, then casts it down like the Red Comet that Old Nan can smell... and she says it means "Dragons." In fact, one could make the argument that this falling red flame leads Qhorin Half-Hand to a Dragon.

And yes, your explanation for the Long Night is a bowl of warm jello. Meaning no offense... but every other piece of magic is tied to astronomy, nature, or blood. For the long night to have no coherent physical corollary would be unprecedented and inconsistent with the series. Moreover, you kept referring to the cold giant mountains as the thing obstructing the fire, implying a physical eclipse... but now you're saying the sun just... went dark? How does that fit any of the text? Af if that's so, then where does the comet fertilizing the moon come in?

LOL, I warned you that you wouldn't like it. I see the Long Night as being tied to nature, and astronomy as well, but in a much different way.

Rather than the destruction of the Moon, I see the Long Night being caused by actions of the First Men. And I do see there being a physical corollary, I just don't see it as being the destruction of a Moon.

I was referring to the cold giant mountains as the Others, actually :cool4: ...who have the ability to not only bring Cold, but Darkness. We've already seen a few nightfires shiver and quail beneath their cold winds. Already, the days have grown shorter. As winter descends from the North, they will become shorter still.

How does one block out the Heat and Fire that is the Sun? Well, as I pointed out earlier, this happens regularly in Arctic climes, of which, Westeros bears far more of than any other continent. The Sun regularly hides its face for months at a time in Alaska. All Martin had to do was draw out that process for years instead of months, and toss in some cold creatures that come in the darkness.

The other massive, massive problem with only one moon: the eighth and ninth wanderer pattern. The Bloodstone E was the ninth Emperor who killed the eighth... I mean, I think we've talked about this one. This pattern pops up a lot. And then there's that short story he wrote in the eighties, with the seven gods, the 8th outcast god, and the wanderer between worlds. Have you seen that one? It's crazy. Shadow fire, the 7 vs the 1 outcast, hell, the ninth wanderer is named "Sharra" (sound familiar?) and she has red and black hair. Shit is crazy - Martin has brainstormed this long ag.o.. it's called the Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr, and you should check it out. It's a really ice short story with tons of implications for ASOIAF. I am telling you brother. Eight wanderers, the ninth takes out the eighth and leaves seven. It is known.

The eight wanderer is the sphinx, which is associated with Ishtar and the moon (that's amethyst-eyed Ishtar, btw)

I'll definitely check it out, but in Westeros, those "wanderers" seem to be Planets, not Moons.

[LmL]

How does one block out the Heat and Fire that is the Sun? Well, as I pointed out earlier, this happens regularly in Arctic climes, of which, Westeros bears far more of than any other continent. The Sun regularly hides its face for months at a time in Alaska. All Martin had to do was draw out that process for years instead of months, and toss in some cold creatures that come in the darkness.

The whole word was dark - not just the poles. Asshai, at the equator, and Yi Ti, felt the Long Night. It was planet-wide, therefore could not have been an eclipse. "Drawing out the process" of the polar days and nights is more soft mush. What does that even mean? No offense. You're just talking in mush right here.

Stonesnake (aka "Dragonstone," "sleeping stone dragon") takes a stick, drinks the fire of the Sun (watchfire) with it, then casts it down like the Red Comet that Old Nan can smell... and she says it means "Dragons." In fact, one could make the argument that this falling red flame leads Qhorin Half-Hand to a Dragon.

No, the watchfire is not the sun. They even say, to burn the bodies, we'd need a bigger fire - there is no bigger fire than the sun. This is a small fire, compared to a red fallen star right at the begining. You're really forcing it here. This is not the sun. It is a fire which breaks apart into three fire people and gives off the burning brand... the burning brand is identified with the drowned god. The drowned god is the god that fell from heaven (lightning from the storm god) and drowned. This act stole fire from the gods and burned trees, just as the twigs were being burnt by the fallen star fire, and just as the burning brand is a burning tree. The lighting from heaven burned the Grey King's tee, and the fallen star fire lit the burning brand here.

​You cannot look at ice chapters and turn a bunch of obvious fire things, like a mountain folding back in on itself, into ice things, if you are going to look at dany and Drogo chapters and then also see ice things there. It seems likely that George is either doing ice metaphors in fire chapters and vise versa (my opinion),or he does ice metaphors only in ice chapters and vise versa (not my opinion). Fair is fair. :)

The long black mustaches his the shadow of a smile, not his whole face... still, you could be right about this. We do have a long black thing obscuring a sun face, at least a little bit. But drogo is happy here, full of love for his moon wife. Not very Long Nightish.

I also think you're really stretching it with your Daenerys interpretation. She is an Ares moon - a red fire moon. She burns, gives birth to dragons. She's a fire moon. You are trying to see two separate roles, but she is not icy, at all. There is nothing icy about her. The only icy things you are reading into her is the fact the she is a moon, which doesn't mean ice if I am right about two moons, and the idea of her being barren. Well, fire consumes, fire burns. She was burned all through this experience. Rhaego burns in the dream, just as Dany does. In fact, Dany is running from the cold dark in her wake the dragon dream. She is the bride of fire, just as Ygritte was kissed by fire. Both of these maidens are fire aspected, yet ALSO marry fire. Yes Ygritte has pale skin - so do Valyrians. The egg reference can apply to either moon. So there is really no ice imagery around either one, at least no definitive ice imagery.

​At no time does Daenerys fulfill the role of fire moon, that I can see. When she dips into the cold black pool, that is the fire meteor landing in the ocean. It's a bloody meteor, having just consumed a heart (heart-eater). The moon drowning is a reoccurring motif, as you saw in my post upthread. The moon drowns when a piece of it crashes into the sea. This happened when the moon shattered. Its reforming, I assume, was when someone made a sword out of the moon rock (lightbringer and the black stone).

​Even the color silver is identified with fire. The fire mage's fire ladder dissolves in a puff of silver smoke.

If Daenerys transforms into something other than the fire moon, it is the sun, not the ice moon. She is burned at every transformation - no ice involved. But she does act like a comet and a sun king. She acts like the ninth wanderer when she burns the eighth slave master with dragon fire, leaving seven. She marries Hizdahr of the cold kisses and frozen cock (ice bride) and then fucks Daario (who seems fiery enough, but I haven't looked for specific fire imagery to confirm this). In this sense, and of Azor Ahai's "offspring" is AA born again. According to my theory, Jon is the child of sun / comet and ice moon, but he is also AA reborn (in an icy sheath, armored in ice). Dany is the fire moon, but also AA reborn as well as the Am Em reborn. Jon is also his mother reborn - a blue rise growing in a chink in the ice. He's a blue rose as well as a dragon.

​The seven celestial wanderers are the 5 planets visible from earth, plus the sun and the moon. It has always been so. There is nothing to assume the seven wanders of the Faith of the Seven are any different. The eighth wanderer would therefore have been the second moon, and the ninth is the comet, the bloodstone emperor.

Also, two kinds of raven: white and black. The two do not love each other. Walrus men and antler men, hate each other. Drowned God and Storm God, in opposition. R'hllor and the Great Other. Even dualities like the maiden of light and the lion of night, the two faces of the sun, are personified by George as two different deities. But when you think about it, the "lion of night" really represents the absence of the sun, the sun "wherever it is when it's not here." The maiden hid, and the Lion of Night roamed free. Sounds pretty separate. Same for the Sea and Wind god and goddess of the Stormlands. They surely reflect duality - but they manifest as separate entities. Two swans, black and white. Two mermaids, black and white. Dragon people and ice people. A song of ice and fire - not a song of icefire.

The sun is the bright fire; space is the cold dark; the ice moon is the bright cold; where is the dark fire? The dark fire we see all over the books? It came from the fire moon. Everything is a duality. Which George has personified as two things. If the moon was actually one thing reflecting two, then it would be unique among all the other dualities personified by George as two separate things.

[LordImp]

Dont know if this has been brought up. The Maiden made of light and the lion of the night had a son. But for me it dosent make sense that God on Earth is the child of an actual Sun. So which persons represent the Maiden and the Lion?

[Daendrew]

Hey! That's no moon!

The Moon may have a completely different meaning for The First Men.

Like The Moon and Falcon.

[LmL]

Hey! That's no moon!

The Moon may have a completely different meaning for The First Men.

Like The Moon and Falcon.

I read it, but what is the "light of a thousand thousand dragons" that is going to come from the gates of the moon? You think it's a volcano or something?

[Daendrew]

I just updated it to answer your question

And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth

.

He looked for great swords ten feet long, but saw only clubs.

-A Storm of Swords - Jon II

The Vale was narrow

here, no more than a half day's ride across, and the northern mountains seemed so close that Catelyn could almost reach out and touch them.

Looming over them all was the jagged peak called the Giant's Lance, a mountain that even mountains looked up to, its head lost in icy mists three and a half miles above the valley floor.

Over its massive western shoulder flowed the ghost torrent of Alyssa's Tears. Even from this distance, Catelyn could make out the shining silver thread, bright against the dark stone.

The "Giant's lance" is mentioned 22 times in the series and waking "giants from" the earth is mentioned 8 times. plus twice more in the new Alayne Winds of Winter chapter. Where Littlefinger, who himself once had the sigil of the giant Titan of Braavos had this cake prepared:

cooks prepared a splendid subtlety,

a lemon cake in the shape of the Giant’s Lance, twelve feet tall and adorned with an Eyrie made of sugar... The cake had required every lemon in the Vale,

but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

Petyr Baelish is not the giant we were hoping for though. His association with it concerns me. See this post on the role of Braavos and The House of Black and White in the coming battle for the dawn. Making Sansa destroy the giant by consuming it, going to great lengths to get every lemon in The Vale is not a good sign at all.

unJon will take back the horn from Sam and sound The Horn of Jorumon three times. The Wall will come tumbling down.

As the Wall falls, Fire Giants of The Vale will awaken from stone to battle the Ice Giants. The Bloody Gate will be the only "Wall" standing against the Others...

Unless Petyr Baelish has different ideas.

The Vale is coming dangerously close to becoming the Veil of darkness.

[LordImp]

Dont know if this has been brought up. The Maiden made of light and the lion of the night had a son. But for me it dosent make sense that God on Earth is the child of an actual Sun. So which persons represent the Maiden and the Lion?

No one who can answer this ?