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Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

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I think we've had fire and ice mixes before, just not Starks and Targs specifically. Bloodraven, of course, springs to mind. But I think the Starks have Other blood, the Targs dragon blood (in some form - the specifics are up for debate, certainly), so mixing those two specifically seems to be important.

If the Starks have any kind of knowledge of their sword being Dark Lightbringer (and if I am right about Neds sword being dark Lb), then they may well have avoided Targ marriage for a specific reason - dragon blooded people must never be allowed to hold LB. Although, Torren was promised a Targ princess... Wonder what was going on there?

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Does this religion qualify for tax exempt status? Might want to look into the potential savings of registering this as an official cult.

If Jon is the first combo-blood entrant in this race for 1000 years, a good reason for that needs to be installed to explain why the two magic bloodlines never spotted each other before and got the idea in their heads to hook up and bang out a combo magic superbaby to inherit the universe. They should have had that idea independently of the maesters, who it seems were required to play matchmaker behind the scenes in the last generations as part of the agenda of hitching north and south couples to ensure the magic bloodlines crossed paths. History should include a strong cautionary tale that kept ice away from fire prior. Uh, maybe aligning themselves with elements did that all by itself, maybe Ice people naturally hiss at fire people and vice versa. But then why did Rheagar have such a strong compulsion to put his peanut butter in Lyanna's chocolate? In their case something sure overcame any natural repulsion they felt and replaced it with attraction. Maybe those blue flowers have magnetic inversion properties and flipped the elements' natural distrust over into lust. Yes. Something did. Or else we'd have to face the reality that the bloodlines themselves have no aversion to each other and would have always humped it up, given the opportunity------which would mean the entire world has been conspiring so as to prevent them from having that opportunity to hump, by way of isolating them as far from one another as possible. Until.... the pervy maesters had a cloistered meeting where they decided to buck the trend and make a fire and ice love match.

Har!

However, assuming we need an heir from he direct Targaryen royal line, like Rhaegar, and noting the tendency of such heirs to hook up with their sisters, there was actually pretty low probability of this, before Aegon tried to end this practice. With or without this qualification, this was only one of the requirements for producing the the PtwP. It all had to line up with the great cycle of the cosmos and junk. Comets were required.

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I think we've had fire and ice mixes before, just not Starks and Targs specifically. Bloodraven, of course, springs to mind. But I think the Starks have Other blood, the Targs dragon blood (in some form - the specifics are up for debate, certainly), so mixing those two specifically seems to be important.

If the Starks have any kind of knowledge of their sword being Dark Lightbringer (and if I am right about Neds sword being dark Lb), then they may well have avoided Targ marriage for a specific reason - dragon blooded people must never be allowed to hold LB. Although, Torren was promised a Targ princess... Wonder what was going on there?

Except that they tried to make this mix happen with the Pact of Ice and Fire during the Dance of Dragons.

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That's what I was referring to. Interesting that it almost happened, but didn't. We should look over the details of the text there and see what George may be implying.

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Earlier in this thread, we were looking at a Jon chapter in depth. The pale stone mountains had icy crowns, but their base was in shadow. Here we have a tower with a black crown from night fire soot... And the base is white:

The point of land on which the Greyjoys had raised their fortress had once thrust like a sword into the bowels of the ocean, but the waves had hammered at it day and night until the land broke and shattered, thousands of years past. All that remained were three bare and barren islands and a dozen towering stacks of rock that rose from the water like the pillars of some sea gods temple, while the angry waves foamed and crashed among them.

Drear, dark, forbidding, Pyke stood atop those islands and pillars, almost a part of them, its curtain wall closing off the headland around the foot of the great stone bridge that leapt from the clifftop to the largest islet, dominated by the massive bulk of the Great Keep. Farther out were the Kitchen Keep and the Bloody Keep, each on its own island. Towers and outbuildings clung to the stacks beyond, linked to each other by covered archways when the pillars stood close, by long swaying walks of wood and rope when they did not.

The Sea Tower rose from the outmost island at the point of the broken sword, the oldest part of the castle, round and tall, the sheer- sided pillar on which it stood half- eaten through by the endless battering of the waves. The base of the tower was white from centuries of salt spray, the upper stories green from the lichen that crawled over it like a thick blanket, the jagged crown black with soot from its nightly watchfire.

Broken swords I associate with the fire sword, and indeed, we have lightning involved here as well as the black night fire crown. I've noticed towers frequent have crowns, generally associated with fire, while mountains tend to have icy crowns. Could there be a consistency to these metaphors? Do towers, in general, represent the fire sword / fire moon, and mountains the ice moon? I don't think so, as I think I've seen mixed metaphors, but maybe when a crown is involved, that's when it is getting specific.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Here's the other quote:

Thats a long cruel climb by night, Ebben said as he eyed the distant spark through a cleft in the rocks that sheltered them. The sky was cloudless, thejagged mountains rising black on black until the very top, where their cold crowns of snow and ice shone palely in the moonlight.

And a longer fall, said Qhorin Halfhand. Two men, I think. There are like to be two up there, sharing the watch.

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So, as usual, I am running behind. This notion that the Faith of the Seven is a restoration of the faith over turned by BSE, but then corrupted by the Hightower's/CoSW is really fun. So both the Red Priests and the original FotS were reactions against the BSE. That and the bit in the other thread about Benerro describing the destruction of the Second Moon causing the Long Night, are some of the best material I have seen surface in a while.

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So, as usual, I am running behind. This notion that the Faith of the Seven is a restoration of the faith over turned by BSE, but then corrupted by the Hightower's/CoSW is really fun. So both the Red Priests and the original FotS were reactions against the BSE. That and the bit in the other thread about Benerro describing the destruction of the Second Moon causing the Long Night, are some of the best material I have seen surface in a while.

Happy to entertain good buddy. Mithras and I are all over that Church of Starry Wisdom shit. If you want to start on forum version of the CoSW, just put "pray to Urrax" under your forum name. The. someone will contact--

I've probably said too much.

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Happy to entertain good buddy. Mithras and I are all over that Church of Starry Wisdom shit. If you want to start on forum version of the CoSW, just put "pray to Urrax" under your forum name. The. someone will contact--

I've probably said too much.

I want to know more about the CoSW theories, but you fellas make it hard to keep up!

As soon as I read about it in the worldbook, all sorts of bells started going off about the Faith because of the connection with stars. The Faith felt really familiar because of the way GRRM wrote about it, but when you think about it, the Andals are a profoundly militaristic society, which seems to be grounded in their religion (conquest of Westeros in a fit of religious zeal; obsession with warriors and knights (who are just religiously-sanctioned fighters); even the existence of the Warrior as an aspect of the deity suggests a view that there is a religious aspect to war in general as well). Overall, it doesn't necessarily sound like they're good news for the world I guess.

So is the thinking that the Faith has been corrupted by a CotSW infiltration? I suppose that could be behind the abandonment of the axe symbol (which as we're told featured as prominently as the seven-pointed star symbol early in the invasion, like in the Vale). The CotSW exploited the Faith's own star imagery to ease itself into a position of influence?

Or was the Faith always a CotSW offshoot / front?

Either way would suggest there's a plan towards which the Faith is being used, which then invites an examination of the Faith's actions: historically, what has it done that's significant, but might not seem so strange to us at first glance? Pushing for the destruction of the weirwoods and general animosity to the "old gods" and the CotF might be hints - is that the Faith's own doing (this seems totally obvious to us), or does this reveal the hand of the CotSW?

Is there a specific post / blog / reddit that's good for existing CoSW theories??

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If I am understanding the theory. There was a Faith of the Eight, prior to the Long Night. The Eight correspond to what was then the Eight Wanderers, one sun two moons, five planets.The second moon was destroyed by the Lightbringer come and chunks of it fell to Planetos. The BSE demanded that his people worship one of these fallen moon chunks and cast down the Faith of the Eight (FotE). The Long Night ensues. Somethings happen. Their are multiple competing theories about whether the BSE becomes Azor Ahai and undoes part of the damage he has caused or whether he is AA or the Last Hero or what not. I think we are all familiar with the ambiguities here. The Cult of Stary Wisdom springs from the faith that the BSE established, and has continued without him regardless of what role he may or may no have had in endin the Long Night. Whether or not BSE = AA, AA is counted by the Red Priests as a member if not founder of their religion. Credit for founding the Faith of the Seven is given to he legendary Andal king Hugor of the Hill. The connection between AA is a name game that would fail to convince some people, but seems pretty strong to me. Azor Ahai -> Huzhor Amai legendary Sanori king and Huzhor ->Hugor as in Hugor or Hill* the founder of the FotS. What we are inferring is that Hugor is descendant of Azor Ahai, who reestablished the Faith of the Eight as the Faith of the Seven. At some point, however after the FotS was established in Westeros, the CoSW managed to begin secretly influence the FotS, with the primary suspects being the Hightowers, with their freaky tower built on a structure made of GeotD tech fused stone. The "Starry" Sept of the Seven was built by the Hightowers in Oldtown becoming the seat of the Faith, and believe the office of the High Septon comes from that time. The symbol of the star pops up a lot around the seven, which isn't surprising. I am thinking of a scene where Jaime is talking with some members of the Faith Militant and one of them has a seven pointed star carved above his eye, which he descries in his inner monologue as a "stary eye". Right now we have a take over of he Faith Militant, and they are running around with what clearly looks like, even to a non-religious type like me, the Mark of the Beast carved into their foreheads.

* And Tyrion takes on the name Hugor Hill when traveling incognito, and I had a Corgi named Hugo. In Welsh, Corgi means "dwarf dog", and Tyrion is a Dwarf! Coincidence?!?! Okay yeah, that last part is coincidence.

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Presumably in the original mythos of GeotD, the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night were either meta-deities understand to be the fore-bearers of the Eight, or they were the original interpretations of the Father and the Mother as the head of their pantheons. Also, as the destroyed moon is depicted as female (Nissa Nissa) the original faith had a balance of female and male deities. Male: Father, Warrior, Smith, Stranger. Female: Mother, Maiden, Crone, and Nissa Nissa. The old religion was in balance, yin and yang, All subsequent religions have been out of balance.

I am just trying to summarize here. None of these are my original thoughts.

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@Durran Durrandon



Seems like a good, concise description of the discussion. Certainly jives with what I gathered. I'm fascinated with the religions - they're all connected, just like religions on Earth.



*I love the corgi=Tyrion tangent you went on there! Very cute!


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I sometimes have the urge to troll myself as you just have with your Corgi-Tyrion connection. I occasionally read our own sentences and have to chuckle. Some of our stuff would be perfect read in the Ancient Aliens voice. Just saying.

When the Citadel was founded, it was a bit more magical sounding, and they had communion with the cotf. In fact, the building of the Citadel may coincide with the general reversal of men's animosity to the cotf. The FM were slaughtering cotf everywhere, in the reach and storm lands and westerlands etc. Brandon Bloody blade, a son of Garth Greenhand, was massacring them at Red Lake. Then his probable son, BtB, sought out the cotf for help. Garth's daughter Maris wed author Hightower, builder of the Hightower (commissioned it from BtB supposedly) and who's son started the Citadel. The Hightowers were known for sorcery and alchemy as well.

Then, the Faith arrived. The ruling Hightower married his daughter to an Andal chief who deposed the father soon after. Their half Andal Hightower son built the Starry Sept. So it seems like a complete coup there in the space of a generation. After that the Citadel becomes more hostile to magic, over time. I think the citadel and the Faith and the Hightowers have to be all taken together in some cases if we want to figure out what is going on there.

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I want to know more about the CoSW theories, but you fellas make it hard to keep up!

{Snip}

Is there a specific post / blog / reddit that's good for existing CoSW theories??

Welcome home, friend. You've found us. Like I said, just add "pray to Urrax" in your avatar sub-title and you're in.

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I sometimes have the urge to troll myself as you just have with your Corgi-Tyrion connection. I occasionally read our own sentences and have to chuckle. Some of our stuff would be perfect read in the Ancient Aliens voice. Just saying.

When the Citadel was founded, it was a bit more magical sounding, and they had communion with the cotf. In fact, the building of the Citadel may coincide with the general reversal of men's animosity to the cotf. The FM were slaughtering cotf everywhere, in the reach and storm lands and westerlands etc. Brandon Bloody blade, a son of Garth Greenhand, was massacring them at Red Lake. Then his probable son, BtB, sought out the cotf for help. Garth's daughter Maris wed author Hightower, builder of the Hightower (commissioned it from BtB supposedly) and who's son started the Citadel. The Hightowers were known for sorcery and alchemy as well.

Then, the Faith arrived. The ruling Hightower married his daughter to an Andal chief who deposed the father soon after. Their half Andal Hightower son built the Starry Sept. So it seems like a complete coup there in the space of a generation. After that the Citadel becomes more hostile to magic, over time. I think the citadel and the Faith and the Hightowers have to be all taken together in some cases if we want to figure out what is going on there.

But are they hostile to magic really? If Leyton Hightower is up in the tower searching for spells to summon an army from the deep as one of his naval commander sarcastically told Sam, are we to suppose that the Citadel is only hostile to magic as an outer circle thing, while an inner circle is performing dark rites and dancing on the ashes of dead babies with the inner circle of the corrupted FotS? While I am asking questions, is the new Faith Militant and the High Sparrow a counter movement to the corrupted faith or a disguised coup being launched by the corrupted FotS?

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I sometimes have the urge to troll myself as you just have with your Corgi-Tyrion connection. I occasionally read our own sentences and have to chuckle. Some of our stuff would be perfect read in the Ancient Aliens voice. Just saying.

When the Citadel was founded, it was a bit more magical sounding, and they had communion with the cotf. In fact, the building of the Citadel may coincide with the general reversal of men's animosity to the cotf. The FM were slaughtering cotf everywhere, in the reach and storm lands and westerlands etc. Brandon Bloody blade, a son of Garth Greenhand, was massacring them at Red Lake. Then his probable son, BtB, sought out the cotf for help. Garth's daughter Maris wed author Hightower, builder of the Hightower (commissioned it from BtB supposedly) and who's son started the Citadel. The Hightowers were known for sorcery and alchemy as well.

Then, the Faith arrived. The ruling Hightower married his daughter to an Andal chief who deposed the father soon after. Their half Andal Hightower son built the Starry Sept. So it seems like a complete coup there in the space of a generation. After that the Citadel becomes more hostile to magic, over time. I think the citadel and the Faith and the Hightowers have to be all taken together in some cases if we want to figure out what is going on there.

bolded part: That doesn't always seem to be true, though. IF the Citadel and the FotS are anti-magic, AND in league with the Hightowers - what's with Lord Leyton and his Mad Maid daughter up in the tower looking at spell books? I'm all for the Citadel and FotS working together for a no-magic world, but I think the Hightowers vary from Lord to Lord - Leyton's father may have been anti-magic, but Leyton's all for it (apparently). Just like some Hightowers have been "hands off" when it comes to wars within Westeros, while others have been very "hands on." And even then, Ser Otto & Queen Alicent may not have been on the same page as some of their Hightower relatives. So I don't think it's cut and dry that the Hightowers are "with" the Citadel and/or FotS - I think it's all about opportunity and circumstances with the Hightowers. And personal preference - whether they believe in magic or not.

That being said, I'm not sure they're against the Citadel either - as usual, I tend to take the middle ground. I think they're opportunists, not particularly ambitious opportunists, but they'll work with the Citadel and/or FotS when it suits them and work against the Citadel/FotS when that suits them. Whatever they need to do to maintain their hold on Oldtown and the harbour. But I'll maintain my "wait and see" stance before making any definitive statements! I just enjoy playing devil's advocate - I'm not trying to cause trouble, I purposely enjoy turning an argument/theory/idea on it's head just to see what the opposite side of the argument/theory/idea might have to offer!

**I see your "in some cases" there now (I read it too fast). So yes, I guess I'm agreeing. In some cases, it seems like they're working together, in other cases it seems like they're working against and in yet other cases it seems like they're working completely parallel and never intersecting! Everything Oldtown is so odd.

Welcome home, friend. You've found us. Like I said, just add "pray to Urrax" in your avatar sub-title and you're in.

*whispering* how? my profile page won't let me edit "Sellsword" under Member Title?

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Presumably in the original mythos of GeotD, the Maiden Made of Light and the Lion of Night were either meta-deities understand to be the fore-bearers of the Eight, or they were the original interpretations of the Father and the Mother as the head of their pantheons. Also, as the destroyed moon is depicted as female (Nissa Nissa) the original faith had a balance of female and male deities. Male: Father, Warrior, Smith, Stranger. Female: Mother, Maiden, Crone, and Nissa Nissa. The old religion was in balance, yin and yang, All subsequent religions have been out of balance.

I am just trying to summarize here. None of these are my original thoughts.

Oh, that tickles my brain. :D

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Jak of House Priest: I was most lay meaning to say the three - Citadel, Hightowers, And Faith of the Seven -need to be considered together when trying to unravel each, because they influence each other, not that they have singular agenda all the time. I agree with everything you said there. :)

Sparrow Spoiler: thanks, and take your time. TWOW ain't coming out next week. ;)

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