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Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

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I don't even think it needs to be literally volcanic. It could be a fire moon in the sense that Leo and Scorpio are fire signs. This is magic, not science. Not that it couldn't be volcanic, I just don't think the theory hangs on it.

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Mmm, but Lightbringer the sword doesn't shatter when I is stabbed through the heart of Nissa Nissa, it spouts flame, so it would make sense metaphorically that Lightbringer the comet wouldn't shatter when it strikes the moon. Moreover, in the earlier forgings when it does shatter it doesn't break into separate swords, it is destroyed. So yes, scientifically, the comet should be destroyed, but if we are using that paradigm, the falling debris should have super heated the atmosphere an vaporized everything on the surface of the planet, so I can" advise going with that paradigm.1`

Ok, so I guess we should acknowledge: metaphors are not perfect. When we are trying to interpret comets and planets and moons disguised in the actions of characters in the story, some wiggle room is necessary, or else George wouldn't be able to "disguise" the metaphor in the scene - he'd be pulling on the scene so hard to fit the exact mechanics that it would probably degrade the narrative. This is not a cop out - this is an acknowledgement that we are engaged in an imprecise science. This opens up a grey area which can cut both ways, so to speak.

For example, sometimes one person goes through the three forging cycle themselves, which fits my interpretation. Sam in Oldtown walks the path of three forgings himself, as does Arya when she does a three forging pattern with the three dragon skulls in the basement. Brienne and Jamie in the boat do a three forging thing, where the entire part in the boat represents the comet, Brienne splits off (in the middle of a bunch of sword imagery) and then collides with a boulder, resulting in two large impacts and a rain of pebbles (meteor shower), while Jamie and Cleos keep going. When we consider that Jamie dreams of Brienne and himself with blue white fire swords - matching the pale fire swords of the GEotD and the natural color of comet tails (my idea of forging #1) - the idea of those two representing the comet splitting makes sense. Later, after they are split for good, Brienne carries a red and black sword.

All of this fits my idea of the the three forgings.

Then we have other occasions where separate objects or people seem to do the forgings. Dany comes to Vaes Tolorro, then sends out three people in three directions (south, SE, SW) who seem to go do the forging patterns. What's going on here? If we look at Vaes Tolorro as the moon which exploded, and Dany as the dragon comet in this scene, it makes a bit of sense - when the dragon came to Vaes Tolorro, three things were sent south - three dragon meteors. But those three things go and do the three forgings, really clearly. The first finds water and and Dany talks of their functional wells and making plants bloom. The second guy finds two smaller cities (two moons) which the pattern I have set for the two moons - one associated with death by comet (skulls on spears, the blood rider won't enter) while the other speaks of promise, hope, and a return of something. I have interpreted these two cities as representing the halves of the comet as opposed to the moons themselves, because they don't "forge lightbringer" (obtain success, find dragons, etc) on this trip, but on the third trip when one of them finds Quarth (a city with three walls who sends out three riders to meet Dany, all Nissa Nissa forging symbols).

Contrast this to the scene in Oldtown, where the second apple splits (second forging), but one half of the apple then makes the three impacts. They make the very inconspicuous "if you split a worm in half you get two worms" comment, implying the worm is the comet. Adrianne confirms this when she wonders if Darkstar is "the worm in the apple." This all fits my scenario, as far as the worm being split and then one causes three impacts. But what is the apple? And what is the arrow? Who is splitting the worm - the son of a knight throwing the apples (a night sun), the archer Alleras the Sphinx, or the arrows themselves? When the arrow intersects the apple is when the comet image really comes together - a round head with a long tail - so maybe the comet is "forged" only when the apple (head) gains a tail (arrow). The son of a knight throws the arrows, the archer the arrows, and both are needed to make a comet...

So what I am saying is that each 3 forging metaphor is a little different, and thus, different interpretations are possible. So, Durran, I guess what I am asking for is for you to take a look at these scenarios and see if you can see how the idea of the comet's forgings relating to three separate passes out of certain constellations fits the pattern.

There are other forgings metaphors too, but it's ore of the same - each one is a little different based on the logistics of the scene. When Petyr meets Sansa and then Lysa on the fingers, it's a total sun impreganting moon orgy. Sansa plays the fire moon, and her and Petry reenact the three forgings with the three things Petyr tries to get Sansa to drink and eat. The second is a fruit which is cut in half (blood orange iirc). Then when Lysa comes, Petyr... Well... You know. They do it.

One thing I should address in regards to the comet continuing through the moon. Lightbringer the sword caught on fire when it was forged in Nissa's heart, it didn't explode, true enough. But what the people saw was Lightbringer killing the moon in an explosion, and the next thing they saw was fiery meteors streaking to earth, which would have appeared as a continuation. So, to the people, it would seem like the fiery comet did go through the moon, ignite, and then plummet to earth. Similarly, Lightbringer is first the penis / seed of the sun, but when it impregnates the moon, Lightbringer becomes the offspring of both. The dragon meteors which plummeted to earth represent the offspring of sun and moon. It's the sun reborn AND the moon reborn, just as every child is represents a part of their parents. One of these moon meteors, fertilized by the sun ("drinking the sun's fire") became the the black stone which the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai used to make Lightbringer the sword. So again, Lightbringer was first the comet, but when it truly ignited, it was transformed into the flaming meteors which fell to earth and became the sword Lightbringer.

Every son of Azor Ahai is Azor Ahai reborn. The point of the solar cylce is that people saw the sun as dying at sunset and being reborn in the morning - it's a new sun. Just as Garth must die in the fall and be "reborn" to bring the spring. There's a semantic difference between resurrection and rebirth, which is kind of what we are dealing with here. But consider this - Davos lights a fire to "chase the shadows" into their corners - a clear Eldric Shadowchaser reference. Right after this, his shadow falls on the painted table like a sword. AA's dark Lightbringer was a shadow fire sword, according to me, so I like this a lot. But the point is, Davos plays Eldric, who is supposedly another name for AA. But later, his son Devan serves Mel up at the Wall, and HE TOO lights a fire and "chases the shadows." Nobody else does any shadow chasing in the whole series. What does this mean? I think it means that the son of Eldric Shadowchaser is ALSO Eldric Shadowchaser, just reborn into a new son / sun.

Jon illustrates this principle also. His father was Rhaegar, a solar king if there ever was one - he took a fire bride first (Elia of Dorne), and then an ice bride (Lyanna Stark). Jon is the son of the ice moon and the sun, metaphorically speaking, which is why he represents ice and fire. But he also represents Azor Ahai reborn, and Azor Ahai was the sun. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, but with an icy half to his nature. He's a fire dragon in an icy sheath, if you will. So in some metaphors, Jon plays the role of AA himself or the comet before it hits the moon (an extension of AA), while in others he represents the offspring of the comet and ice moon.

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As for Banerro's pantomime, why did people cry when they watched the Passion of the Christ? It happened 2000 years ago. They all knew how the movie was going to end, even people who haven't read the book. I'm sure people gasped during Noah. These are slaves that don't get out much. This is pretty much their version of HBO.

Besides, he is explaining that Daenerys is messiah, it makes since that he would be explaining why they needed one in the first place going back to how this cosmological drama began.

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Durran I'll just add that the mythology of Io and Europa is ABSOLUTELY being used by George in proximately to his moon myths, which I take as a tip-off to look at the real Io and Europa for his ice and fire moon models. This will be covered in my much-delayed moon essay.



The Io myth in particular is really amazingly spot-on.

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Ok, so I guess we should acknowledge: metaphors are not perfect. When we are trying to interpret comets and planets and moons disguised in the actions of characters in the story, some wiggle room is necessary, or else George wouldn't be able to "disguise" the metaphor in the scene - he'd be pulling on the scene so hard to fit the exact mechanics that it would probably degrade the narrative. This is not a cop out - this is an acknowledgement that we are engaged in an imprecise science. This opens up a grey area which can cut both ways, so to speak.

For example, sometimes one person goes through the three forging cycle themselves, which fits my interpretation. Sam in Oldtown walks the path of three forgings himself, as does Arya when she does a three forging pattern with the three dragon skulls in the basement. Brienne and Jamie in the boat do a three forging thing, where the entire part in the boat represents the comet, Brienne splits off (in the middle of a bunch of sword imagery) and then collides with a boulder, resulting in two large impacts and a rain of pebbles (meteor shower), while Jamie and Cleos keep going. When we consider that Jamie dreams of Brienne and himself with blue white fire swords - matching the pale fire swords of the GEotD and the natural color of comet tails (my idea of forging #1) - the idea of those two representing the comet splitting makes sense. Later, after they are split for good, Brienne carries a red and black sword.

All of this fits my idea of the the three forgings.

Then we have other occasions where separate objects or people seem to do the forgings. Dany comes to Vaes Tolorro, then sends out three people in three directions (south, SE, SW) who seem to go do the forging patterns. What's going on here? If we look at Vaes Tolorro as the moon which exploded, and Dany as the dragon comet in this scene, it makes a bit of sense - when the dragon came to Vaes Tolorro, three things were sent south - three dragon meteors. But those three things go and do the three forgings, really clearly. The first finds water and and Dany talks of their functional wells and making plants bloom. The second guy finds two smaller cities (two moons) which the pattern I have set for the two moons - one associated with death by comet (skulls on spears, the blood rider won't enter) while the other speaks of promise, hope, and a return of something. I have interpreted these two cities as representing the halves of the comet as opposed to the moons themselves, because they don't "forge lightbringer" (obtain success, find dragons, etc) on this trip, but on the third trip when one of them finds Quarth (a city with three walls who sends out three riders to meet Dany, all Nissa Nissa forging symbols).

Contrast this to the scene in Oldtown, where the second apple splits (second forging), but one half of the apple then makes the three impacts. They make the very inconspicuous "if you split a worm in half you get two worms" comment, implying the worm is the comet. Adrianne confirms this when she wonders if Darkstar is "the worm in the apple." This all fits my scenario, as far as the worm being split and then one causes three impacts. But what is the apple? And what is the arrow? Who is splitting the worm - the son of a knight throwing the apples (a night sun), the archer Alleras the Sphinx, or the arrows themselves? When the arrow intersects the apple is when the comet image really comes together - a round head with a long tail - so maybe the comet is "forged" only when the apple (head) gains a tail (arrow). The son of a knight throws the arrows, the archer the arrows, and both are needed to make a comet...

So what I am saying is that each 3 forging metaphor is a little different, and thus, different interpretations are possible. So, Durran, I guess what I am asking for is for you to take a look at these scenarios and see if you can see how the idea of the comet's forgings relating to three separate passes out of certain constellations fits the pattern.

There are other forgings metaphors too, but it's ore of the same - each one is a little different based on the logistics of the scene. When Petyr meets Sansa and then Lysa on the fingers, it's a total sun impreganting moon orgy. Sansa plays the fire moon, and her and Petry reenact the three forgings with the three things Petyr tries to get Sansa to drink and eat. The second is a fruit which is cut in half (blood orange iirc). Then when Lysa comes, Petyr... Well... You know. They do it.

One thing I should address in regards to the comet continuing through the moon. Lightbringer the sword caught on fire when it was forged in Nissa's heart, it didn't explode, true enough. But what the people saw was Lightbringer killing the moon in an explosion, and the next thing they saw was fiery meteors streaking to earth, which would have appeared as a continuation. So, to the people, it would seem like the fiery comet did go through the moon, ignite, and then plummet to earth. Similarly, Lightbringer is first the penis / seed of the sun, but when it impregnates the moon, Lightbringer becomes the offspring of both. The dragon meteors which plummeted to earth represent the offspring of sun and moon. It's the sun reborn AND the moon reborn, just as every child is represents a part of their parents. One of these moon meteors, fertilized by the sun ("drinking the sun's fire") became the the black stone which the Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai used to make Lightbringer the sword. So again, Lightbringer was first the comet, but when it truly ignited, it was transformed into the flaming meteors which fell to earth and became the sword Lightbringer.

Every son of Azor Ahai is Azor Ahai reborn. The point of the solar cylce is that people saw the sun as dying at sunset and being reborn in the morning - it's a new sun. Just as Garth must die in the fall and be "reborn" to bring the spring. There's a semantic difference between resurrection and rebirth, which is kind of what we are dealing with here. But consider this - Davos lights a fire to "chase the shadows" into their corners - a clear Eldric Shadowchaser reference. Right after this, his shadow falls on the painted table like a sword. AA's dark Lightbringer was a shadow fire sword, according to me, so I like this a lot. But the point is, Davos plays Eldric, who is supposedly another name for AA. But later, his son Devan serves Mel up at the Wall, and HE TOO lights a fire and "chases the shadows." Nobody else does any shadow chasing in the whole series. What does this mean? I think it means that the son of Eldric Shadowchaser is ALSO Eldric Shadowchaser, just reborn into a new son / sun.

Jon illustrates this principle also. His father was Rhaegar, a solar king if there ever was one - he took a fire bride first (Elia of Dorne), and then an ice bride (Lyanna Stark). Jon is the son of the ice moon and the sun, metaphorically speaking, which is why he represents ice and fire. But he also represents Azor Ahai reborn, and Azor Ahai was the sun. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, but with an icy half to his nature. He's a fire dragon in an icy sheath, if you will. So in some metaphors, Jon plays the role of AA himself or the comet before it hits the moon (an extension of AA), while in others he represents the offspring of the comet and ice moon.

Okay, so I acknowledge that George repeats the threes a bit in his mythology. Lightbringer is forged three times. The dragon must have three heads, and so on. I do also think he has numerological structure in the books, but he didn't invent the pattern of threes. It's a story telling trope, an effective one. So I don't think every repetition of threes is a reference to Lightbringer being forged three times.I think Littleginger trying to get Sansa to eat three times is a story telling pattern, and smacks more of Hades and Persephone than anything else.

Much love. I enjoy your work and appreciate many of your discoveries, but I am not sold on this aspect of your theory.

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In the Davos Shadowchaser chapter, he and Edric both represent the comet at one point. Edric Storm, with his first name one letter away from Eldric, is interesting - when you consider that he is the son of the usurper, Robert Baratheon. Azor Ahai / BSE was a usurper too, and Lightbringer the sword represents the offspring of sun and moon, AA and NN. So that got me and J STargaryen wondering, was Eldric Shadowchaser the son of Azor Ahai? Davis is literally chasing the shadows away - bringing light. So then we went over the entire chapter, with the idea that Davos Shadowchaser and "Eldric" Storm both represent the comet, the two halves, and it seemed to explain the metaphor pretty well. They split at the beach, with "Eldric" Storm sailing off to safety, to come again in the future - the oathkeeper half of the comet which will come again (and has). Davos represents the "Widow's Wail" half of the comet which heads to a deadly collision which will forge Lightbringer. After Davos splits with Edric, he goes u to the painted table, chases the shadows, whips out his shadowsword, and fears his death when Stannis and Mel arrive. Then (and this is really hilarious to me) as Mel is walking up the steps, she says "three is three. I heard his mother's wail in the night fires." Cersei is a widow at this point, so this is a "widow's wail in the nightfire," with in the nightfire meaning "in a the fire of the moon's immolation." Three for the three dragons born of the fire moon's death. Then, Stannis threatens Davos's life, and draws Lightbringer to end the chapter.

I think this is a good example of the wiggle room I am talking about that is necessary to hide the metaphor in the chapter smoothly. The widow's wail in the fire doesn't take place in the same room, but Mel mentions it at the appropriate moment in the metaphor, so that is close enough. You kind of have to strip the scene of its context and looks at the symbols as they appear. We had two comet people split up, one heading to safety (and an eventual return, one presumes) while one goes to meet death and forge Lightbringer. Along the way, we have shadow chasing, shadow swords, three deaths, a widow's wail, tons of fire and dragon imagery, and then Lightbringer is forged. Davos doesn't actually die - that wouldn't work. But he thinks about his death, and Stannis threatens his death. That's enough to make the metaphor happen.

I hope this all makes sense to you, Durran et al, I'm trying my best to express my thinking as far as how to interpret these metaphors. Tell me if this is making sense, guys and gals. TY. :kiss:

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Okay, so I acknowledge that George repeats the threes a bit in his mythology. Lightbringer is forged three times. The dragon must have three heads, and so on. I do also think he has numerological structure in the books, but he didn't invent the pattern of threes. It's a story telling trope, an effective one. So I don't think every repetition of threes is a reference to Lightbringer being forged three times.I think Littleginger trying to get Sansa to eat three times is a story telling pattern, and smacks more of Hades and Persephone than anything else.

Much love. I enjoy your work and appreciate many of your discoveries, but I am not sold on this aspect of your theory.

The persephone myth is actually a version of the Europa myth, and pomegranates are indeed a part of this. It represents the pulling down of the moon goddess to the underworld, which is a metaphor for the cycle of the seasons. Many myths have this idea, actually, its one of the universal archetypes. Our fire moon was the eighth wanderer, a moon goddess, and she was pulled down to earth on the third forging of Lightbringer. Hence, the pomegranate seeds appear as the third forging. The second forging, the blood orange, is split in half. The first thing he offers her has something to do with liquid, but I forget what it was.

I agree not every pattern of three is a forging metaphor - you have to look at the details and clues around the pattern of three to determine if it is or not. In this Sansa chapter, there are many clues that yes, thats what it is. Sansa is a moon child who always plays the role of moon in any metaphor she is in,and there is a ton of fiery imagery around her in this chapter, while Lysa is always described in icy terms. Lysa is bigger than Sansa, as the Ice Moon is bigger than the Fire Moon. There's a bunch more - I've gone through this chapter line by line. At some point I will be putting out these detailed chapter breakdowns after I get my first wave of essays out.

Durran it's all good if you're not sold on the moon splitting - all I am asking is to try to look at the forgings metaphors and see how you might interpret them differently. I'm absolutely open to any idea if someone can show how it explains the metaphors and puzzle pieces. I'm not saying you're wrong - what I'm saying is, "please help me improve the theory" by trying to see how your idea can explain these various text passages. That's what I was trying to highlight how the metaphor sometimes plays out with one person or thing performing the three forgings, and sometimes different things - it's a fuzzy spot in the theory, potentially, which means there may be room for improvement or a better answer.

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I do like the idea of the constellations the comet is sighted against as being relevant, but it doesn't explain the forgings, or the shattered and split language, and it just doesn't seem fit the metaphors.

As for Benerro... a history lesson would not cause men to shake their fists and women to weep - this reaction happens right after Bennero's moon-explosion pantomime. And what would be the point of bringing up 10,000 year old history, if not as some kind of warning about what may happen again if the right measures are not taken?

If the comet passed through other night-fires, the constellations, wouldn't that be an eloquent as fuck form of forging? So for me that works. Nothing "real" (magic) actually happens to the comet during those forgings of course, but from the people's POV it would seem the gods were smelting up a storm, and it would explain why they got hit by a shitstorm of meteorites soon after. I was thinking comet splitting had to happen or there'd not be so many sites reporting ominous black stone.

Davos lights a fire to "chase the shadows" into their corners - a clear Eldric Shadowchaser reference. Right after this, his shadow falls on the painted table like a sword. AA's dark Lightbringer was a shadow fire sword, according to me, so I like this a lot. But the point is, Davos plays Eldric, who is supposedly another name for AA. But later, his son Devan serves Mel up at the Wall, and HE TOO lights a fire and "chases the shadows." Nobody else does any shadow chasing in the whole series. What does this mean?

Their family of honest joes is set up in opposition to the shadow-user, Melisandre. There's a good chance Stannis turns away from corrupt shadow magic soon. He'll need braves to support that move and chase away Melisandre's influence, and see her to the door. The Seaworths have seen through the shadowfire illusions all along. They're the unlistened-to Cassandra as of now, but Davos is hanging in there, maybe to save Shireen from the fire. Some crisis of shadow-shooing. If Stannis goes the other way and re-enlists with shadowfire to become a full on Night King he'll need Davos to put him down in their version of how Wolverine was the guy who could get close enough to kill Jean Gray in the movie.

Randoms

  • the world already has snow falling all over, so it wouldn't need an added coating of ice debris falling from an ice moon. Redundant. If Azor took that iced up world and warmed it up to bring back summer, there'd be extra flood water which could be the source of Patch's ramblings about how they'll all end up under the sea. But why should we want him to be right?

same thing for the Others: they're already back. Why would they need a moon explosion to bring them more back? The difference between a meow of a return and a roaring return? If they need this moon explosion before they can seriously invade, doesn't that just confirm that they can't do anything for themselves and are basically on government assistance?

what if Lightbringer is the tiny star that shines from inside after the ice moon that used to contain it is shattered? Like a new hearth for the planet to warm itself and enjoy those everlasting summers. What if the remnants of the moon fall in a "permanent" (sustained) meteor shower that lands them right on top of the Heart of Winter so that it's always smoking there and melting and dispelling the source of the cold. Maybe tectonic shakings result in magma rising angrily to see what's going on, and then you've got the Others' version of The Purge.

The Benerro thing has got to be both on target but also somehow deranged. Because that's what the fire priests are overall.

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  • the world already has snow falling all over, so it wouldn't need an added coating of ice debris falling from an ice moon. Redundant. If Azor took that iced up world and warmed it up to bring back summer, there'd be extra flood water which could be the source of Patch's ramblings about how they'll all end up under the sea. But why should we want him to be right?
  • same thing for the Others: they're already back. Why would they need a moon explosion to bring them more back? The difference between a meow of a return and a roaring return? If they need this moon explosion before they can seriously invade, doesn't that just confirm that they can't do anything for themselves and are basically on government assistance?

  • We don't have a Long Night yet, just a winter. For the Others to really advance out of the lands of long winter, they need the sun to go away. The onlytime they everadvancedout of the far oath was when the sun dissappeared for years. So yes, there is another level that needs to be reached for the true second long night and the full scale invasion, with the ice spiders swarming over the Wall, to occur.

    I like your comments about Davos's role in relation to Stannis. I think that's an accurate terrestrial interpretation of those events. But of course, there's an astronomy layer to that one too. "Chasing the shadows" is a very specific phrase. Again, it makes me think of Davos Shadowchaser as a son of Azor Ahai, the Bloodstone Emperor who went against his father - perhaps this was the last hero, who picked up the broken dark lightbringer of his father after he was defeated at Battle Isle. We know a broken sword was reforged, probably with the addition of dragon glass. This fits my scenario for LB - originally, it was a pre-Valyrian form of dragon flame-made steel, infused with the sun drinking black moonstone worshipped by AA / the BSE. This stone drinks the light, just as Ned's sword does. It's like dark frozen fire, frozen shadow fire. This makes it an unbalanced fire sword. Thus, when it meets Dawn, aka original Ice, in the hands of... probably a Stark ancestor, I would guess, dark LB breaks. It's reforged with dragon glass and the aid of the cotf, then becomes the dragon steel of the LH. Something like that.

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To explain that idea a bit, my taking is this. We know the GEotD had a toehold in Westeros because of the Battle Isle fortress. We also have the legends of dragons there and dragonslayers in the Reach. We also know there was an ancient battle there, old enough to be forgotten but important enough for the name to survive. So, if AA / BSE invaded Westeros, this is the obvious place. What battle was fought there? Well, probably the first battle in the war for the Dawn. The metaphors that seem to talk about this battle indicate that the BSE was defeated here, dropped his sword and / or had it broken against a cold warrior or some kind. Garth the Green was of course killed at some point, he being the sacrificial deity, and this may have happened here as the green man / horned god always dies in the fall, which is equivalent to sunset.

Most of the broken swords we have seen, from Ser Waymar's the prologue to the Last Hero's sword, break against ice swords. Only when the LH was armed with full dragon steel were the Others unable to stand against him. There's also a bunch of stuff about how a broken sword can be reforged... George is playing with the "elves reforge the broken sword" trope from Tolkien here.

To tie in with your observations about Davos, TMOTO, Davos is constantly working against the shadow fire magic, and he is playing the role of Eldric Shadowchaser. I think this fits with the idea of Eldric being a son of AA who tried undue his father's shadowy work. This would probably AA / the BSE's child by Nisaa Nissa / Amethyst Empress, which means he's likely a Dayne. Of course we have an Edric Dayne who is the heir to Starfall, and who used to serve under another Azor Ahai stand-in, Beric Dondarrion. With his undead nature and dark starry cloak, he seems like the Bloodstone Emperor version of AA. I think it all fits, the Dayne's being founded by this son of AA, Eldric Shadowchaser, who may have been the LH.

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It isn't going to hit anything this time, because it would be too melodramatic, and Winter is already coming. It heralds the end of the age and chance to restore balance. Benerro isn't predicting another collision. When he mimes to the crowd he indicates that that it resulted in darkness, the Long Night. He is preaching at the same time that Daenerys will bring eternal summer, so it sounds like the comet and moon bit is a history lesson, not a prediction.

On the balance point:

The endgame of the series will be an end of the current age, agreed. "Balance" though is a tricky proposition, because it can be restored in so many ways. The return of regular seasons = balance. The destruction of all magic on Planetos = balance. The destruction of all sentient life on Planetos = balance. An outcome that sees balanced restored could feel cataclysmic for the story and characters we're reading.

Here's my favourite quote (it's actually the whole poem) on the topic of competing powers successfully "co-existing" in a state of balance. I think it's where GRRM is ultimately taking us. For context, the short poem was inspired by a devastating war.

"Now Europe's balanced, neither Side prevails

For nothing's left in either of the Scales."

- Alexander Pope, "The Balance of Europe"

Ragnarok. Planetos will be restored to balance... through a conflagration that will strike during the heart of winter (mirroring the destruction brought by dragons, after the one brought by the Others). It will burn whatever winter hasn't already frozen, resulting in the ultimate destruction of the Others, dragons, CotF, the trappings of human civilisation, and most actual human beings as well. A small pocket will survive into the next, magic-less, age - with nothing but memories (soon to become myths) of the Song of Ice and Fire to tell their descendants, as they rebuild the world. Rag. Na. Rok.

On Benerro

I agree 100% that Benerro is presenting the Volantis mob with a history show. But that doesn't prevent it from being a hint to the reader as to what's to come. Benerro is the head honcho of Rhllorism, which has been the main driver of Stannis' plotline (most likely through Mel's heretical endeavours though) and will by all accounts play a huge part in whatever Dany does. Rhllorism also provides the main retelling of the Lightbringer narrative: the very forgings we've been discussing in this thread. When that guy mimes the destruction of the moon, I think he may be giving a history lesson to his listeners, but not to the readers.

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To tie in with your observations about Davos, TMOTO, Davos is constantly working against the shadow fire magic, and he is playing the role of Eldric Shadowchaser. I think this fits with the idea of Eldric being a son of AA who tried undue his father's shadowy work. This would probably AA / the BSE's child by Nisaa Nissa / Amethyst Empress, which means he's likely a Dayne. Of course we have an Edric Dayne who is the heir to Starfall, and who used to serve under another Azor Ahai stand-in, Beric Dondarrion. With his undead nature and dark starry cloak, he seems like the Bloodstone Emperor version of AA. I think it all fits, the Dayne's being founded by this son of AA, Eldric Shadowchaser, who may have been the LH.

Big props for this whole para. It feels quite close to the target.

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If Eldric Dayne is most likely a Dayne, and Dawn was "forged from the heart of a fallen star" -> "from the heart of a meteor" -> "from the heart of the second moon" -> "from the heart of Nissa Nissa", THEN -> Eldric Shadowchaser = not only LH, but Lightbringer itself?


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If Eldric Dayne is most likely a Dayne, and Dawn was "forged from the heart of a fallen star" -> "from the heart of a meteor" -> "from the heart of the second moon" -> "from the heart of Nissa Nissa", THEN -> Eldric Shadowchaser = not only LH, but Lightbringer itself?

Yes, in the same way the Jon is Lightbringer, per Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer. The first "Lightbringer" who was a person would be pure dragonblood, descended from AA / BSE and NN/Am Em, the son of two fire people. The sun and fire moon. This time, it's Jon, the son of the Sun and the Ice Moon. But his ice seems to be black - he's holding a red fire sword while armored in black ice. It's like an inversion of the Stark sigil (hat tip Voice of the FM) combined with the Targ sigil. The ice turns black when the night falls. Recall the scene where Jon looks at the Wall at sunset, and in the cracks which are full of melting water, we see streaks of red fire turn to rivers of black ice. Because the black ice and red fire appear n the cracks of the Wall, the same place we saw the blue rose, it seems that again, the red fire and black ice represent Jon.

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BTW all of this "son of AA was Eldric SC and he was a good guy" thing is very early hypothesis, something that I only started seeing recently.. so please, LPC and everyone else, be on the lookout for any clues about Eldric Shadowchaser or sons of the usurper or anything like that. Cheers.

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Yes, in the same way the Jon is Lightbringer, per Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer. The first "Lightbringer" who was a person would be pure dragonblood, descended from AA / BSE and NN/Am Em, the son of two fire people. The sun and fire moon. This time, it's Jon, the son of the Sun and the Ice Moon. But his ice seems to be black - he's holding a red fire sword while armored in black ice. It's like an inversion of the Stark sigil (hat tip Voice of the FM) combined with the Targ sigil. The ice turns black when the night falls. Recall the scene where Jon looks at the Wall at sunset, and in the cracks which are full of melting water, we see streaks of red fire turn to rivers of black ice. Because the black ice and red fire appear n the cracks of the Wall, the same place we saw the blue rose, it seems that again, the red fire and black ice represent Jon.

Not sure I get the bold part?

Edric Storm or Gendry as sons of the usurper? Dany may cross paths with ES on her way to Westeros, though I'm not sure how or to what purpose. ES may also be inspired by the fall of Storm's End to the Targaryens to lead some type of force into Westeros, against fAegon. That could put him square in the middle of action.

Poor Gendry though. He's been associated with bulls the whole series. In a reassuring way, because he's so big and strong, but things don't usually end well for those of the bovine persuasion in these stories. Is there a Mithras connection here? I'm not 100% across those theories, still reading through. Anyway.

If Shadowchaser was AA and NN's son, Lightbringer in human form, that also means that his conception and birth are the earthly re-enactment of ​a comet destroying a moon and raining fire - not a great omen for a new baby boy!

Maybe Old Nan's LH story is in fact the same story as the Azor Ahai story we hear in the Davos chapter. BUT, we got it the wrong way around: the CotF didn't tell the LH how to forge the sword, which he then tried and ended up killing his wife for. What if instead the story goes: AA made the sword, then later the LH goes to the CotF who tell him how to get the sword (or that he needs that sword).

It's just another angle from which it's possible to consider that AA and LH were two different people who lived at the same time (perhaps even as father and son, yes). LH somehow got AA's sword, and used it to end the Long Night that the sword's forging caused. I know I'm taking some huge shortcuts in the discussion above, mixing metaphors and literal events, but just in the interest of brevity. The underlying repeating themes, as I'm sure you already picked up, would be:

  • a father forging a weapon (maybe a father forging his son into a weapon, from conception),

the sacrifice of the wife/mother, and

the turning of the son (who is more like his mother, whose strength went into him) against the father, using the father's weapon (which may be the son himself, or a literal sword, or both at the same time).

The idea of the father wanting to "forge a weapon" by having a son is of course very Rhaegar-esque (I never up until thinking about this bought the story that Rhaegar was prophecy-mad, but I don't know anymore). What if the AA character wanted a son because of a prophecy (a promised prince if you will), and impregnated his wife perhaps knowing she would die giving birth (thus the sacrifice). The prince is born, but it turns out he is "not his father's son". His mother's strength went into him, and he is somehow his father's opposite (as his mother was). He is in fact the LH/Shadowchaser character and "steals his father's sword" (metaphorically / literally) to overturn his (dark) works.

Jon is indeed more Lyanna than Rhaegar so far (which kind of makes sense - everything about him other than Rhaegar's genetic contribution is northern, ie from Lyanna, directly and indirectly). What does that say about Rhaegar, what he was like, and what he wanted?

Is this expressly suggesting that Jon will not conform to whatever Rhaegar believed Jon would do? If so, it certainly circles back into the topic of Jon's coming role, his "black" ice armour, etc.

Could it be that this time around the roles are reversed, and Jon will not be the saviour his father thought he was bringing into the world? Just like the AA's son wasn't the weapon his father wanted.

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I agree with most of your thinking here, LPC. You're right to back away from the details for a minute and think about the themes. The interpretations of the metaphors should always be cross-checked against the themes and general plot sense.

I said inversion when I meant a frozen version. Black ice and red fire, red dragon on black... but black ice.

There's a scene with Ghost, a white wolf with red eyes, running against a field of midnight. White wolf on black is the inversion of the stark sigil, grey wold on white.

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Regarding what Rheagar may have wanted (and thus the plan Jon might "usurp", as a clue to his role), if we look Rheagar's "three forgings":

- Rheagar wanted to forge himself into a prince from a prophecy, in the "normal" way, by becoming a warrior. He comes to accept this isn't right (first failed forging, analogous to a sword breaking when forged the normal way, in water)

- Rhaegar wants to have three children who will fulfil the prophecy and thinks Aegon is the promised prince. This forging fails when the lion, Tywin Lannister, kills Aegon and Rhaenys (the sword split in two, like the two children; or more grimly, "shattered and split" refers to the manner in which Gregor Clegane killed Aegon; and most people thought Tywin was pretty heartless afterwards, like the lion AA used in the failed second forging)

- Rhaegar has Jon with Lyanna (the successful third forging, the story tells itself).

It does sound like Rhaegar is forging a warrior, but for what battle, for what side? Oh, to get a glimpse of his correspondence with Maester Aemon... which here's hoping are preserved at Castle Black.

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I agree with most of your thinking here, LPC. You're right to back away from the details for a minute and think about the themes. The interpretations of the metaphors should always be cross-checked against the themes and general plot sense.

I said inversion when I meant a frozen version. Black ice and red fire, red dragon on black... but black ice.

There's a scene with Ghost, a white wolf with red eyes, running against a field of midnight. White wolf on black is the inversion of the stark sigil, grey wold on white.

Yep I see that.

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And let's not forget that Rhaegar "usurped" Robert, in Lyanna's affections and by marrying her. Yes yes, that interpretation denies Lyanna's agency, but it's how it was seen in Westeros, and certainly how Robert saw it.



Which would make Jon a "usurper's son", in the eyes of some.


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