Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

In order to right what he made wrong, he had to sacrifice what he loved most. Perhaps the most tragic love story of all time.

I take umbrage at this line of thinking :p

What a convenient way to buy ones way into the universe's good graces: just kill your wife! As long as you really love her, it's super redemptive for you.

SHE's the dead one!!

[LmL]

Also, he killed Nissa Nissa at the beginning of the LN, just as the BSE killed the Am Empress to cause the LN and just as the sun comet killing the moon caused the LN. If he sacrificed at the end, it would be his own life, seed, or both. This is the AA = NK hypothesis, with the NK being someone who sacrificed his seed to Others to seal a peace pact of some kind. I have always considered this idea highly plausible, myself.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Also one must not ignore the Little Valyrian. I highly doubt any actual crossing happened there, but I think the story is there as a hint that there was something lowly and "un-grandiose" about the silver-haired, purple-eyed people's origin story.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Look, it would be EXTREMELY unlikely for this morally complex story to have a morally clean beginning. He's presented as just plain bad, so he is bound to have had some good reasons.

Always makes me think of Aegon II and Rhaenyra, and how the strength of the claim is meaningless when you look at the level of damage the conflict brought. And it's all about how the story is told.

Yeah. I'm of the opinion that the empire was in decline, and law and order were breaking down. So the BSE took some drastic measures to restore the past order and glory. And it all backfired, hard.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Yeah. I'm of the opinion that the empire was in decline, and law and order were breaking down. So the BSE took some drastic measures to restore the past order and glory. And it all backfired, hard.

Agree - and to add more ambiguity, maybe it didn't even backfire. Eg a hypothetical situation where the decline is leading to something catastrophic, and his actions (whatever they were) avoided it, but at a huge cost (the destruction of the GEotD and the scattering of human population). It takes the greatest kind of hero to act, knowing you will be remembered as the villain.

[Durran Durrandon]

As for Valyrians as a hybrid servant race.

Well, it would be lame if the "greatest culture the world has known" as far as we're aware (the Vals) actually do descended from the Emperors of the original greatest empire. There's no surprise, the silver-haired purple-eyed demi-gods are truly just a few steps above the rest. Uncomfortable conclusions.

Much more satisfying to reveal they began as an "abomination" - a hybrid slave race meant to be used to control dragons.

And a lot is made of the pale-fire-sword people Dany sees. A very very lot. They may not be her ancestors, but the people who bred her ancestors with dragons; she's now their last remaining weapon so they urge her on.

Satisfying? Sure. Supported? Look Danny has amethyst eyes, she has the platinum blonde hair of the god emperors.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

The decline of the GEotD could be something that was worked into the story, looking back: the golden age -> the slow but inexorable decline -> the breaking. Seems almost too neat.

Also, can someone clarify Yin Tar for me? We were discussing the woman with a monkey tail who the Yitish believe ended the LN. She's not named, but at another spot "Yin Tar" is suggested to be the Yi Tish equivalent of Shadowchaser.

I'm just trying to think about how many different "basic archetypal" roles we're looking at.

I also had a chilling thought re the source of the name TARgaryen. >:]

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Satisfying? Sure. Supported? Look Danny has amethyst eyes, she has the platinum blonde hair of the god emperors.

Theres a jump there, assuming that we're looking at the god emperors themselves, and then another one, assuming Dany's hair and eyes imply specific descent.

A more general interpretation of the allusion would be that the characters with pale fire swords are a representation of the GEotD in general, and the hair and amethyst eyes connection is there to help us make the link between them and Dany.

If I were the BSE, looking to harness dragons by making a hybrid human population (who would have the blood of the dragon), would I pick some random slaves? Or would I breed a dragon with a member of my own family, creating a link between the dragon and MY bloodline?

Perhaps that was the true Blood Betrayal. An abomination, a betrayal of one's own blood, for dragon power.

This doesn't prevent Dany from playing the role of the Amethyst Empress or AA or any of the other archetypal roles from the original story.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Bottom line, SOMEONE got dragon blood into the bloodlines of certain populations. The first time this was done, think about it: you're about to gain dragon power for your family... by magically breeding a female relation with a dragon. This sounds horrendous, and I doubt it was ever a pretty process. The implied sacrifice, the "darkness" of the act, the consequences of crossing this line, the allure of the power you'd thus gain...

All screams BSE.

Holy shit. The BSE sacrificed the AE in a dragon-crossing experiment. The fire sword in the AA story isn't just ANY metaphorical penis. It's symbolises the impregnation of Nissa Nissa with the fire of the sun; with dragonseed. Lightbringer, born of this union, is the first dragon-human hybrid (dragonlord).

He then turned on his father. We've discussed this particular theme above, as being a potential feature of the AA / LH relationship. But now I'm saying it could also work in a "revolt of the slave dragonlords" context.

Just spitballin.

[LmL]

I like a lot of those ideas LPC :)

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Bottom line, SOMEONE got dragon blood into the bloodlines of certain populations. The first time this was done, think about it: you're about to gain dragon power for your family... by magically breeding a female relation with a dragon. This sounds horrendous, and I doubt it was ever a pretty process. The implied sacrifice, the "darkness" of the act, the consequences of crossing this line, the allure of the power you'd thus gain...

All screams BSE.

Holy shit. The BSE sacrificed the AE in a dragon-crossing experiment. The fire sword in the AA story isn't just ANY metaphorical penis. It's symbolises the impregnation of Nissa Nissa with the fire of the sun; with dragonseed. Lightbringer, born of this union, is the first dragon-human hybrid (dragonlord).

He then turned on his father. We've discussed this particular theme above, as being a potential feature of the AA / LH relationship. But now I'm saying it could also work in a "revolt of the slave dragonlords" context.

Just spitballin.

Well, the Five Forts are fused stone, meaning made by dragonfire. And they are said to be made by the Pearl Emperor. So it sounds like GEotD had dragons pretty much the whole time.

EDIT: Though I agree the BSE may well have been sacrificing the AE in some manner to get more power.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Well, the Five Forts are fused stone, meaning made by dragonfire. And they are said to be made by the Pearl Emperor. So it sounds like GEotD had dragons pretty much the whole time.

EDIT: Though I agree the BSE may well have been sacrificing the AE in some manner to get more power.

How about: pre-BSE, dragons were controlled with magic (or HORNS) - arduous, and not many could do it. As was perhaps best. Or some serious downsides? Let's see what happens when Victarion blows the horn.

Then someone has the bright idea of making a hybrid human bloodline that will be born with an affinity to dragons. A dragon army in the making.

Mind you, I'm not sure the prelapsarian GeoDawnians were dragon riders at all, I'm not sure if dragonflame is the only way to make fused stone, and I'm not sure the Five Forts pre-date the Long Night (as per the theory above, the creation of dragonlords coincided with the start of the LN) as you'd expect them to be built after an unexpected attack came from that direction, not before.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Incidentally it's exactly how Rhaegar killed Lyanna: impregnating her with dragonseed. That of course also resulted in a dragon of sorts.

And if the theory of the LH archetype being the son of the AA archetype who turns against his father's (dark?) works, why... Jon StarGaryen, the Ice Dragon, you say?

[Jak Scaletongue]

How about: pre-BSE, dragons were controlled with magic - arduous, and not many could do it. As was perhaps best.

Then someone has the bright idea of making a hybrid human bloodline that will be born with an affinity to dragons. A dragon army in the making.

Mind you, I'm not sure the prelapsarian GeoDawnians were dragon riders at all, I'm not sure if dragonflame is the only way to make fused stone, and I'm not sure the Five Forts pre-date the Long Night (as per the theory above, the creation of dragonlords coincided with the start of the LN) as you'd expect them to be built after an unexpected attack came from that direction, not before.

Perhaps this is where the dragonbinding horns come into play? Maybe that's what they used originally - only making a certain number of magical horns keeps down the number of people who could use it. We've all been assuming (or, that's how I feel reading these threads, but I may have missed something ;)) that the horns are the unnatural way to bind a dragon, but what if they were the original magic used to control dragons, then BSE comes along and mates the AE with a dragon to create the human/dragon hybrid?

Then those of us who like the rough timeline we do have could still attribute the Five Forts to a dragon riding/controlling GEoTD emperor before the LN, but still have a rather brutal "blood betrayal" causing the LN as well.

And for those that don't like the rough timeline we have, you can alter as you see fit ;)

[Alequo Adarys]

I think there is significant relation between Tywin Lannister and the Bloodstone Emperor. Heliotrope is green with yellow/red spots. This is strikingly similar to "..green with flecks of gold" for the description of Tywin's eyes.

The only other relations I can think of apply to the Lannisters slaying the ruling Targs. That lines up for the succession of Amethysts>Bloodstone.

What do you guys think? Coincidence?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

So, I don't think the AE was killed by dragon-mating. Throughout the novels amethysts are often linked with poison. Xaro even gives Dany (our presumptive AER) an amethyst choker to defend her from poison when she goes to see the Pureborn. I feel like signs point to the AE having been poisoned, not knocked up with a dragon.

I also don't think Lyanna is a parallel to the AE, though she does have parallels to Nissa Nissa. I'm pretty firmly in the camp that AE and Nissa Nissa were not the same person. AE's death preceded the Long Night and Nissa Nissa died to end it.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

And, further, I don't know what ancient dragon lords may or may not have done with horns, but I'm also not sure that Victarion's horn is going to help us understand that very much. The horn he has is probably not ancient IMO, but rather made for Euron by the Qartheen sorcerers he captured. They may have been working off of ancient knowledge, or they might have been wildly guestimating to meet Euron's demands. If it works it works, but it still might not reflect GEotD practices at all.

[LmL]

Nissa and the Amethyst Empress are absolutely the same person. Nissa was killed to begin, not end the LN. The pattern is sun kills moon, both in the sky and on the ground. It all matches, or none of it does. If AA = BSE, then NN = Am Em. Nissa means "grandmother moon" - Nissa represents the moon, which was destroyed to cause, not end, the LN.

[LmL]

Lyanna is Rhaegar's Ice Moon bride, Elia his fire moon bride. Fire moon is impregnated first, then the ice moon.

[LmL]

I think there is significant relation between Tywin Lannister and the Bloodstone Emperor. Heliotrope is green with yellow/red spots. This is strikingly similar to "..green with flecks of gold" for the description of Tywin's eyes.

The only other relations I can think of apply to the Lannisters slaying the ruling Targs. That lines up for the succession of Amethysts>Bloodstone.

What do you guys think? Coincidence?

I've definitely thought about this. Lann comes from the east according to some tales, and the Valyrians had hair of gold and silver and platinum - and the Lannisters always have gold hair, never blond. Not much else to go on, but I do see the symbolic parallels you're pointing at.