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LmL

Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

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Second, look at Asshai and the Shadowlands. Something bad happened there. It's a disaster zone, and it appears to be magically toxic or radioactive. Of course you read my last essay - there's every reason to believe that Asshai was built before this disaster. It's like a cancerous, diseased part of Mother Earth. It want always like that, I feel certain.

Look at Valyria, the other nation who tapped into the fires of the earth for power and magic. They were a horrific abomination. They spent five MILLENNIA depopulating Essos by feeding millions of slaves into their gristmill of mining death. Five thousand years of concentration camps, in essence. That's as if Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia had existed since 3,000 BC. That's UNFATHOMABLE human suffering and misery. The Valyrians were an abomination in every way. That speaks to a deep seeded corruption of an entire people - and they were sucking earth's magic out of the very fires of the earth, and I suspect their magic was the same shadow magic that comes from Asshai.

It's possible the fourteen flames were corrupted by the magic Valyria learned from Asshai. But I think the magic the Valyrians used was fundamentally corrupt - they were slavers from the beginning. They've always been "this way." Blood sacrifice - specifically involuntary sacrifice - is an abomination as well. And yes, I think this means there's a dark side to the weirwoods.

Total agreement with all of this, btw--except maybe about blood sacrifice always being an abomination. I don't know that blood sacrifice is always considered evil in a cosmic sense in the world of Planetos. Scary and sketchy, but not on the level of abomination. Like, kinslaying and guest right violation would be considered much worse. Involuntary human sacrifice specifically...well, yeah, that's evil. But animals and willing victims (like Nissa Nissa)...maybe not necessarily evil according to in-world morality. Would likely depend on context.

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Using slave labor in mines under gruesome conditions where life expectancy was a few years at most.



Yes that sounds like Valyria.



But you know what? That was exactly the Old Way in the Iron Islands.



What is more interesting is that both Valyria and Iron Islands have superior weapon technology. Valyrians had Valyrian Steel which required blood sacrifices. The foul black weapons of the reavers in the dawn of days were said to drink the bloods of the slain. Was that actually bloodmagic? Were those foul black weapons enchanted by blood sacrifices of the enslaved people under sick rituals back in the islands?



I take this as one more piece of evidence showing the "non-First Men" origins of the ironborn. They are different. I think they might be GeoDawnians who made a sinister pact with the merlings and corrupted in the process.


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Using slave labor in mines under gruesome conditions where life expectancy was a few years at most.

Yes that sounds like Valyria.

But you know what? That was exactly the Old Way in the Iron Islands.

What is more interesting is that both Valyria and Iron Islands have superior weapon technology. Valyrians had Valyrian Steel which required blood sacrifices. The foul black weapons of the reavers in the dawn of days were said to drink the bloods of the slain. Was that actually bloodmagic? Were those foul black weapons enchanted by blood sacrifices of the enslaved people under sick rituals back in the islands?

I take this as one more piece of evidence showing the "non-First Men" origins of the ironborn. They are different. I think they might be GeoDawnians who made a sinister pact with the merlings and corrupted in the process.

I'm interested in this line of thinking very much. The advanced maritime skill is so out of place.

Here's a question for you Mithras, or for anyone else: if the Ironborn are from elsewhere, what is the intersection of myth that came with them vs. the sea god / wind god religion that seems to stretch from the Iron Islands to the Riverlands (Tullys send their dead to watery halls) to the Sisters, Stormlands, Fingers, possibly Crannogs. It seems like one of the two main first men religions, in addition to the Garth / Corn King / Green Man religion. The wildlings have these two also, pitted against one another - reindeer men (green men, Garth) vs Walrus Men (Selkies, Merlings, Deep Ones). The "Horned Lord" seems like a Garth revivalist for sure. We are told the First Men dropped their old beliefs to take up the religion of the Old Gods. I suspect this happened after the Long Night, because I think it's probable that the cotf helped man survive on Westeros during the LN. Check the Bran in Bloodraven's cave chapter - they've got mushrooms and goats and fish and a few other things, all underground. Lots of LN hints around there. Anyway, after the the cotf saved the FIrst Men's hide, they were impressed (very) with the cotf and old gods.

Oh and yes I think "the pact" may have happened right after the Long Night, not long before. But getting back to the subject at hand : if the Ironborn are from somewhere else, or at least some of their ancestry is, what beliefs are what and which belong to who? Did the aquatic religion come with the Ironborn and spread elsewhere? I don't think so, myself, because there is way too many damn Merlings and Selkies sightings around southern and middle Westeros. What's going on here?

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As for Dany getting nibbled by fishes, the sigil of House Sunderly is a drowned man whose body is nibbled by fishes.

More interesting House sigils from the Iron Islands:

House Wynch of Iron Holt in Pyke has a bloody moon on purple. LmL, which moon might that be? :)

House Stonetree of Harlaw has a bare stone tree, grey on black. Now that looks like a petrified weirwood tree, the ones we see in Old Wyk as Nagga's bones.

And of course, House Goodbrother of Hammerhorn has a gold-banded black horn on red, one resembles the dragonhorn Euron brought to the kingsmoot. Speaking of Euron, he resembles Urrathon IV Goodbrother known as the Badbrother because of his cruelty. Victarion and Aeron talked about Euron, saying that in him their mother's and father's blood went bad. Speaking of Urrathon, there is Urrathon the Nightwalker's House in Qarth where the glass candles are burning. I don't think Urrathon the Nightwalker exists in the reat time. But his ghost (because ghosts are called nightwalkers by Theon) might be dominating Euron.

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I'm interested in this line of thinking very much. The advanced maritime skill is so out of place.

Here's a question for you Mithras, or for anyone else: if the Ironborn are from elsewhere, what is the intersection of myth that came with them vs. the sea god / wind god religion that seems to stretch from the Iron Islands to the Riverlands (Tullys send their dead to watery halls) to the Sisters, Stormlands, Fingers, possibly Crannogs. It seems like one of the two main first men religions, in addition to the Garth / Corn King / Green Man religion. The wildlings have these two also, pitted against one another - reindeer men (green men, Garth) vs Walrus Men (Selkies, Merlings, Deep Ones). The "Horned Lord" seems like a Garth revivalist for sure. We are told the First Men dropped their old beliefs to take up the religion of the Old Gods. I suspect this happened after the Long Night, because I think it's probable that the cotf helped man survive on Westeros during the LN. Check the Bran in Bloodraven's cave chapter - they've got mushrooms and goats and fish and a few other things, all underground. Lots of LN hints around there. Anyway, after the the cotf saved the FIrst Men's hide, they were impressed (very) with the cotf and old gods.

Oh and yes I think "the pact" may have happened right after the Long Night, not long before. But getting back to the subject at hand : if the Ironborn are from somewhere else, or at least some of their ancestry is, what beliefs are what and which belong to who? Did the aquatic religion come with the Ironborn and spread elsewhere? I don't think so, myself, because there is way too many damn Merlings and Selkies sightings around southern and middle Westeros. What's going on here?

The weirwood grove at Old Wyk is dead. The Blackwoods claim that their weirwood tree was poisoned by the Brackens. If that is the case, were the weirwoods at Old Wyk poisoned too? Because the weirwood roots are very strong, so I do not expect a tsunami, or the cold to kill them.

I have also previously speculated that if Argoth Stone-skin was the Grey King, his pact with the merlings after his prize was stolen by the Hightowers makes sense. And this sounds long before the LN.

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I've been wondering about Urrathon Nightwalker and all the U names in general. Uthor and Urragon, the Urrathons, and a couple others. The dragon Urrax (God's Eyeball). Where's that Nightwalker / Theon quote? Would like to see that one.

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I've been wondering about Urrathon Nightwalker and all the U names in general. Uthor and Urragon, the Urrathons, and a couple others. The dragon Urrax (God's Eyeball). Where's that Nightwalker / Theon quote? Would like to see that one.

Theon called the Hooded Man a nightwalker, which means that is a person he assumes to be dead (Benjen, Septon Chayle, Harwin etc. take your pick)

Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand.

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I did catch the Wynch bloody moon and Goddbrother / Hammerhorn stuff. I think I caught the stone tree a long time ago but forgot, so thanks. You read all the stuff I wrote about lighting hitting trees right?

The petrified weirwoods are the key to the Iron Islands mystery, I am sure of it. Poison, that's possible. Severing from the land is my other guess. As in, the Iron Islands used to be a peninsula connected to the mainland, but when the LN happened - earthquake, meteor, volcano, whatever happened there - the chain was severed. That's why they won't grow in the vale, and there are none on Dragonstone or other islands away from land. (iirc)

The Isle of Ravens at Oldtown is interesting - they have a half-dead Weirwood. It's an isle, but one in a river, and this not really disconnected from the surface layer of the land, and thus, weirwoodnet. This would be the same isle known as the lair of a pirate king, and the oldest part of Oldtown. Hmmmm.

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I did catch the Wynch bloody moon and Goddbrother / Hammerhorn stuff. I think I caught the stone tree a long time ago but forgot, so thanks. You read all the stuff I wrote about lighting hitting trees right?

The petrified weirwoods are the key to the Iron Islands mystery, I am sure of it. Poison, that's possible. Severing from the land is my other guess. As in, the Iron Islands used to be a peninsula connected to the mainland, but when the LN happened - earthquake, meteor, volcano, whatever happened there - the chain was severed. That's why they won't grow in the vale, and there are none on Dragonstone or other islands away from land. (iirc)

The Isle of Ravens at Oldtown is interesting - they have a half-dead Weirwood. It's an isle, but one in a river, and this not really disconnected from the surface layer of the land, and thus, weirwoodnet. This would be the same isle known as the lair of a pirate king, and the oldest part of Oldtown. Hmmmm.

Man, Oldtown. Oldtown and Qarth are both places where it feels like every single name and description is secretly code for something really mysterious. Half-dead weirwood in Oldtown, opposite-color weirwood by the House of the Undying...can't wait to learn more about that stuff.

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I think we are really close here. Yes, the ice sword is the crooked fissure - and ice swords shatter the steel swords:

So what is the ice sword shattering? A wall of stone, part of a mountain, lit by moonlight. The mountain can't also be an ice sword if the icy crack is an ice sword. The crack is the ice sword, and the mountain, folded back on itself like a stone snake with fire that appears and disappears, is the fire sword. Which was originally shattered by an ice sword. I'm talking about the Last Hero's dragon steel, which Old Nan said was broken by the Other's ice swords. Whenever I see an Ice sword shattering something, I tend to see if it is a metaphor for a fire sword. And the Wall, which is icy and lit by moonlight, is nevertheless used as a metaphor fire the fire sword many times.

Another sign the mountain is the fire sword:

Waymar's sword, before it is shattered, was lit by moonlight too, but must be playing the role of fire sword, as it was broken by an ice sword. Begin to notice all the trees references, also:

Better a knife because you need dragon glass, we've discussed that. Here are the trees, who hate Waymar's sword (because it's representing dragon steel and these are Other-friendly trees):

Then the sword breaks:
This confirms Waymar's identity. His sword becomes a thousand flying objects - by now, everyone should know what that means. Dragon meteor shower. The sword that became a meteor shower is the moon meteorite (offspring of sun/comet and moon) which broke into the meteor a shower. One of these must have been the black stone used by the Azor Ahai to make his dark fire sword. Which later was broken by an ice sword, reforged with dragon glass, and was remembered as dragonsteel. Waymar seems to be playing the role of AA / LH. Another LH clue:
And then check this out:

Okay, so Waymar, wielder of the fiery comet sword, was stabbed in one eye - hello, God's Eye. A thousand eyes and one - here it is again. That's all fire moon stuff. God's Eye was "stabbed," and that's when the blue eyes appeared.
Someone else noticed that moleskin gloves are worn only by Jon and Waymar here. Of course there is plenty of other "Jon as Last Hero" signs, but this is another. Since he's also showing Azor Ahai signs, I take this is evidence that AA was the LH.
Now, the crux of this whole thing: the broken sword is like a tree hit by lightning. Now, let's do a whirlwind tour of trees struck by lightning and see what we see.

I see the mountain behind Jon as the milkglass that goes into Other swords.

You're right, we're not far apart on this. But we might be far apart on this:

I'm talking about the Last Hero's dragon steel, which Old Nan said was broken by the Other's ice swords.

Old Nan never says this. Rather, in the story of the last hero (how the hero became the last hero):

So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it1. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—

I interpret this as being before LH found aid from the cotf. After all, he was running for his life, and the cotf had to rescue him:

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him3," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

Then, after he gains their aid, he begins slaying others:

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades1, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel.1 Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian2." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass2 dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel3. Supposedly they could not stand against it.3"

Footnotes:

  1. The blades of others are so cold they shatter "ordinary blades."
  2. The children of the forest forge no metal, but the one material they do use in earnest just so happens to be a substance to which the Others are "vulnerable."
  3. After the cotf helped the last hero, the Others could not stand against him.

So, the way I read it, before the last hero found aid from the children, he ran from the Others. His normal (bronze?) sword froze and "snapped when he tried to use it" (against the Others?)... But then, after learning ancient magics from the cotf, the last hero began "slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel," that the Others "could not stand against."

So you can see where I'm going with this... the last hero set out with his 12 companions, his horse, his "dog," and his standard (bronze?) sword. All of these things proved inadequate, and, each was destroyed. Finally, stripped of all that could aid him, desperate and alone, Others cold on his trail, the children helped him.

Bran knows the end of the story, he no longer fears for his uncle Benjen. This is a hint that the last hero (of the 13) returned. Samwell's discoveries in the Annals at Castle Black support this, as clearly, the last hero was no so equipped when his friends, horse, dog, and sword were being destroyed.

So he got a new sword, and that sword became known as "dragonsteel." Call me crazy, but if the small folk call obsidian dragonglass, and the Valyrians call obsidian by a name that means "frozen fire," and dragons are "fire made flesh," then I would think the last hero's blade was aflame. And given the Others "could not stand against it," if any swords were shattering at that point (melting?) it certainly wasn't the last hero's blade of dragonsteel. At that point, the Others were thinking "retreat"...

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The blue priestess shuddered. White blood melted down her thigh, pale and shiny, swirling away in a fine white mist. The ice was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, freezing her, transforming her. Fingers of frost traced patterns on her skin pale as milkglass, insistent as an ice spider's hand mandible.

Now, you're speaking my language ;)

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Now, you're speaking my language ;)

Ok. This is my first post here at asoiaf. I just finished ADWD and immediately burned through all your threads LML as well as yours VOTFM and Durran D. Sorry if some of this isn't really relevant, but I've got a lot going on in my head right now after doing all that reading, and I'm just trying to sort it all out and will be pulling ideas from all over the place. So sorry.

When the fire moon was destroyed, it allowed for the elemental ice magic to become stronger since it no longer had its counter to balance it out. Now, lets say there were some priests (possibly first men?) who were experimenting with ice magic just as the red priests do. Looking at how Mel is physically changing as she gives herself more and more to her magical abilities, I think that the sudden surge in ice magic after the destruction of the fire moon gave some men the ability to actually change themselves into the Others (similar to how Mel is currently changing but to a far greater extent). Echoing Mo OTO here, but the more you give yourself to magic the more you lose of your human self, so what if the Others represent a full on conversion of elemental magic taking over a human body brought on by an imbalance in the fire/ice duality. In the end, there not "humans" at all, but the end form of what Mel is currently experiencing. I also aligned this with what Blind Beth was saying about magic just being magic (like electricity) and its the people that corrupt it.

Now, looking at VOTFM post on the hierarchy of the Others, what if the WW are the equivalent of the shadows that Mel can form, albeit a much stronger version of them created by the Others. This could also explain parallels between coldhands and Beric Dondarrion

To put it all in perspective (for myself if not anything else), I fully agree with what LML says about AA being evil and love the idea of him having an epic battle with the Dayne's in the first Battle for the Dawn. When he's defeated, however, you still have the Others to deal with. That is when I see the LH (also in support of LH=TNK) going up and making some kind of pact with the Others. This follows Jon's story already of having to join the wildlings, etc. Since the Others have discovered this kind of super magic,however, they agree to raise the Wall as a barrier (it does seem suspicious that a group of people who can manipulate ice would not have anything to do with raising a giant ice wall).

Now the Others are back and fire magic seems to be regaining its lost power. Possibly something to do with the return of the red comet?

What do you all think? Everything I've read so far has been awesome so I hope I can contribute.

Notes:

*I know this is rough, just wanted to get it out there

*All within the context of everything LML has previously said (astrology, proto-valyrians, geotd, etc)

*I think the dragons are kind of derivative because I remember seeing something where GRRM didn't originally have them in his plan

*The main reason behind me thinking that the Others come from humans is that there is no evidence of them existing before the dawn age (thoughts?)

Edit: I read that whole f****** argument on geography on the Red God, Blue God thread and thought this might help

http://i.imgur.com/5ntLj32.jpg

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Still, all I am seeing is that when a sword breaks, it's the fire sword being broken by the ice sword. Every time. Sandor vs Beric is another - it even says "the cold sword leapt up to meet the fiery one" or something like that. Of course the fire sword snapped.

I don't see anything to associate the mountain with milkglass, and I don't see the how milkglass being broken by an ice sword makes much sense. Fire swords are snapped by ice swords.

You're right about the Old Nan quote technically, but it sure seems implied that it was an icy sword that broken the Last Hero's blade. The Last Hero's original sword was Azor Ahai's dark Lightbringer, but it did not yet have obsidian - only the black "bloodstone" and pre-Valyrian steel (forged in the sacred fires could easily mean dragon flame or something similarly hot). Since the bloodstone is dark frozen fire, so to speak, it was unbalanced as a weapon. Adding obsidian, natural frozen fire (which emits a bright light as we have seen) fixed the sword and made it balanced. At least that's my hypothesis. The wielder of Dawn (original Ice) met Azor Ahai / Bloodstone E In battle, broke his sword. The ToJ is a reenactment of a kind, with the swords reversed - wielder of Dawn (original Ice) vs. the wielder of Lightbringer.

When the Last Hero got help from the cotf, I'm assuming that's when the dragonglass was added in somehow to fix the sword. The Last Hero killed a bunch of Others, and left the sword at winterfell to be ready again when the Others come back.

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Ok. This is my first post here at asoiaf. I just finished ADWD and immediately burned through all your threads LML as well as yours VOTFM and Durran D. Sorry if some of this isn't really relevant, but I've got a lot going on in my head right now after doing all that reading, and I'm just trying to sort it all out and will be pulling ideas from all over the place. So sorry.

Awesome! Welcome to the circle of "we hope we aren't crazy" people! Heh. I also recommend reading Schmendrick's essay R+L=Lightbringer, you can find that link at the top of my earlier essays or in Mithras' signature, as well as Crowfood's Daughter's threads about Selkies and Wildlings and the Grey King / Curse of the Barrow King, links at the top of my earlier essays.

Once you have this astronomy frame in your mind, you'll want to an entire re-read. It's absolutely insane how many times George outs this pattern in the book somehow.

When the fire moon was destroyed, it allowed for the elemental ice magic to become stronger since it no longer had its counter to balance it out. Now, lets say there were some priests (possibly first men?) who were experimenting with ice magic just as the red priests do. Looking at how Mel is physically changing as she gives herself more and more to her magical abilities, I think that the sudden surge in ice magic after the destruction of the fire moon gave some men the ability to actually change themselves into the Others (similar to how Mel is currently changing but to a far greater extent). Echoing Mo OTO here, but the more you give yourself to magic the more you lose of your human self, so what if the Others represent a full on conversion of elemental magic taking over a human body brought on by an imbalance in the fire/ice duality. In the end, there not "humans" at all, but the end form of what Mel is currently experiencing. I also aligned this with what Blind Beth was saying about magic just being magic (like electricity) and its the people that corrupt it.

Yes I am thinking along the same lines mostly. I think Mel's transformation is a template for Other creation. I referenced that a couple comments up thread. I like your observation that the transformation would have been easier or more rapid or whatever during the LN, that's very true.

Now, looking at VOTFM post on the hierarchy of the Others, what if the WW are the equivalent of the shadows that Mel can form, albeit a much stronger version of them created by the Others. This could also explain parallels between coldhands and Beric Dondarrion

I'm pretty sure Coldhands was a greenseer. Beric is shadow bound - a ghost (shadow) bound to a reanimated corpse. No soul though. Coldhands has a soul, and is still communicating with animals. He smells like a wight, but animals don't fear him. I think he's a lot like what Jon will become - a skinchanger who dies, soul lives in animal, resurrection, soul out back in. Boom. Cold wight, but with soul. Coldhands.

But yes, the Ithers are always Pale Shadows, an interesting idea. Dark fire, bright shadows. Ice that shines.

To put it all in perspective (for myself if not anything else), I fully agree with what LML says about AA being evil and love the idea of him having an epic battle with the Dayne's in the first Battle for the Dawn. When he's defeated, however, you still have the Others to deal with. That is when I see the LH (also in support of LH=TNK) going up and making some kind of pact with the Others. This follows Jon's story already of having to join the wildlings, etc. Since the Others have discovered this kind of super magic,however, they agree to raise the Wall as a barrier (it does seem suspicious that a group of people who can manipulate ice would not have anything to do with raising a giant ice wall).

Agree. Other magic was used to raise the Wall.... Gotta be, right? I do think Azor Ahai's sword was that of the Last Hero, but I am uncertain if Azor Ahai himself became the Last Hero. Strong chance of it... Hard to say. Garth has a lot of Last Hero symbolism too.

Now the Others are back and fire magic seems to be regaining its lost power. Possibly something to do with the return of the red comet?

Yeah, gotta be. It appeared right when dragons were born. That's the pattern - events in the sky mirrored by those on the ground. ;)

What do you all think? Everything I've read so far has been awesome so I hope I can contribute.

Notes:

*I know this is rough, just wanted to get it out there

*All within the context of everything LML has previously said (astrology, proto-valyrians, geotd, etc)

*I think the dragons are kind of derivative because I remember seeing something where GRRM didn't originally have them in his plan

*The main reason behind me thinking that the Others come from humans is that there is no evidence of them existing before the dawn age (thoughts?)

Edit: I read that whole f****** argument on geography on the Red God, Blue God thread and thought this might help

http://i.imgur.com/5ntLj32.jpg

No, Others seem to have appeared in the LN.

There's also a lot linking Others to trees and greenseers. I'm working on that.

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Ok. This is my first post here at asoiaf. I just finished ADWD and immediately burned through all your threads LML as well as yours VOTFM and Durran D. Sorry if some of this isn't really relevant, but I've got a lot going on in my head right now after doing all that reading, and I'm just trying to sort it all out and will be pulling ideas from all over the place. So sorry.

When the fire moon was destroyed, it allowed for the elemental ice magic to become stronger since it no longer had its counter to balance it out. Now, lets say there were some priests (possibly first men?) who were experimenting with ice magic just as the red priests do. Looking at how Mel is physically changing as she gives herself more and more to her magical abilities, I think that the sudden surge in ice magic after the destruction of the fire moon gave some men the ability to actually change themselves into the Others (similar to how Mel is currently changing but to a far greater extent). Echoing Mo OTO here, but the more you give yourself to magic the more you lose of your human self, so what if the Others represent a full on conversion of elemental magic taking over a human body brought on by an imbalance in the fire/ice duality. In the end, there not "humans" at all, but the end form of what Mel is currently experiencing. I also aligned this with what Blind Beth was saying about magic just being magic (like electricity) and its the people that corrupt it.

Now, looking at VOTFM post on the hierarchy of the Others, what if the WW are the equivalent of the shadows that Mel can form, albeit a much stronger version of them created by the Others. This could also explain parallels between coldhands and Beric Dondarrion

To put it all in perspective (for myself if not anything else), I fully agree with what LML says about AA being evil and love the idea of him having an epic battle with the Dayne's in the first Battle for the Dawn. When he's defeated, however, you still have the Others to deal with. That is when I see the LH (also in support of LH=TNK) going up and making some kind of pact with the Others. This follows Jon's story already of having to join the wildlings, etc. Since the Others have discovered this kind of super magic,however, they agree to raise the Wall as a barrier (it does seem suspicious that a group of people who can manipulate ice would not have anything to do with raising a giant ice wall).

Now the Others are back and fire magic seems to be regaining its lost power. Possibly something to do with the return of the red comet?

What do you all think? Everything I've read so far has been awesome so I hope I can contribute.

Notes:

*I know this is rough, just wanted to get it out there

*All within the context of everything LML has previously said (astrology, proto-valyrians, geotd, etc)

*I think the dragons are kind of derivative because I remember seeing something where GRRM didn't originally have them in his plan

*The main reason behind me thinking that the Others come from humans is that there is no evidence of them existing before the dawn age (thoughts?)

Edit: I read that whole f****** argument on geography on the Red God, Blue God thread and thought this might help

http://i.imgur.com/5ntLj32.jpg

Good stuff! I'll say more when I have more time...

Still, all I am seeing is that when a sword breaks, it's the fire sword being broken by the ice sword. Every time. Sandor vs Beric is another - it even says "the cold sword leapt up to meet the fiery one" or something like that. Of course the fire sword snapped.

I don't see anything to associate the mountain with milkglass, and I don't see the how milkglass being broken by an ice sword makes much sense. Fire swords are snapped by ice swords.

You're right about the Old Nan quote technically, but it sure seems implied that it was an icy sword that broken the Last Hero's blade. The Last Hero's original sword was Azor Ahai's dark Lightbringer, but it did not yet have obsidian - only the black "bloodstone" and pre-Valyrian steel (forged in the sacred fires could easily mean dragon flame or something similarly hot). Since the bloodstone is dark frozen fire, so to speak, it was unbalanced as a weapon. Adding obsidian, natural frozen fire (which emits a bright light as we have seen) fixed the sword and made it balanced. At least that's my hypothesis. The wielder of Dawn (original Ice) met Azor Ahai / Bloodstone E In battle, broke his sword. The ToJ is a reenactment of a kind, with the swords reversed - wielder of Dawn (original Ice) vs. the wielder of Lightbringer.

When the Last Hero got help from the cotf, I'm assuming that's when the dragonglass was added in somehow to fix the sword. The Last Hero killed a bunch of Others, and left the sword at winterfell to be ready again when the Others come back.

The Last Hero's original sword was Azor Ahai's dark Lightbringer

While entirely possible, this is an assumption. Not a fact. According to Old Nan's story, the last hero was one of 13 men, and the last of the 13 to survive. Rather than slaying Others, he was nearly destroyed by them. At the last possible instant, the cotf rescued him. Then, in the annals, it is said he slayed Others with a dragonsteel sword. This latter sword was not shattered by an Other's blade. To the contrary, they could not stand against it.

His first sword would have been a standard issue blade like that of his other 12 companions. There wasn't anything special about it. As Samwell said, ordinary blades are ineffective against them.

Awesome! Welcome to the circle of "we hope we aren't crazy" people!

LOL! ain't that the truth!

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Not even an assumption, just a theory. I did not mean to sound as I was stating fact. :)

I think the Last Hero's sword breaking is a tiny bit metaphorical. My theoretical "Dark Lightbringer" was the black stone and steel, so it was not yet full dragon steel. It broke against a superior ice sword - Dawn, original Ice, and then (this is my theory) the cotf helped add dragonglass to make the sword a balanced fire sword, true dragon steel.

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Not even an assumption, just a theory. I did not mean to sound as I was stating fact. :)

I think the Last Hero's sword breaking is a tiny bit metaphorical. My theoretical "Dark Lightbringer" was the black stone and steel, so it was not yet full dragon steel. It broke against a superior ice sword - Dawn, original Ice, and then (this is my theory) the cotf helped add dragonglass to make the sword a balanced fire sword, true dragon steel.

Entirely possible, but in those days the First Men were armed with bronze. And it seems as though the LH didn't have a special blade until after his powwow with the cotf. So I tend to believe dragonsteel is the one worthy adversary of Other-blades. I wouldn't be surprised if Other-blades melt once met with dragonsteel. I definitely don't see dragonsteel shattering...

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agree, but like I said, it want Dragonsteel until it had the obsidian element added in. I think it was broken before that, just like all the fire swords that are broken.

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Great insights as always, LmL, and very enjoyable reading. I particularly like your insights on Quaithe!




The ‘children of the dawn’ have caught my attention as well and I’ve decided to try a genetic approach to discovering the origins of Valyrian bloodlines. Still working on this subject but this is some of what I can say on the subject so far. Ultimately, I hope that the investigation will shed some light on bloodlines in Westeros in general and perhaps even reveal information on the Others / group of Others.




We begin with Dany’s forefathers, the various Emperors of the Dawn she sees in her dream:



They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.



With the exception of the Amethyst Empress, all are male. Knowing that GRRM is a meticulous writer, I get the impression that he has singled out these four for a reason – I suspect it’s because only these four share the distinctive hair traits that we associate with people of Valyrian origin. The legend offers no information on the wives or mothers of these emperors. It makes me wonder whether the silver-platinum-gold hair trait was acquired through the female line, from the mothers of these emperors. I think this is so and becomes evident when we consider Rhaego, as Dany sees him in her visions and dreams:



Her dream came back to her, sudden and vivid, and she remembered the tall man with the copper skin and long silver-gold braid, bursting into flame.



She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds.



Dany sees Rhaego with copper skin and silver-gold hair. Rhaego’s father is a Dothraki with black hair; black hair is normally a dominant trait. Indeed, Cersei’s children are exposed because of their golden hair. All Baratheons and Robert’s bastards exhibit black hair. So, it’s rather odd that Rhaego should have silver-gold hair. As such, I believe this trait is passed down through the female line or is an X-linked dominant trait (X being the female chromosome). We see that Rhaego also has his mother’s violet eyes but his father’s copper skin and almond-shaped eyes. This suggests that the wives of the above mentioned emperors may have been recruited from a people genetically different to the folk of the GEotD, in short, descendant Valyrian’s foremothers came from a different stock.




There’s not much to go on but I found some subtle hints that the Emperors of the Dawn may have taken the Fisher Queens as brides. From the World Book:



From such we know of the Fisher Queens, who ruled the lands adjoining the Silver Sea – the great inland sea at the heart of the grasslands – from a floating palace that made its way endlessly around its shores.



The first hints are by association – Fisher Queens and Silver Sea – Dany is the ‘Silver Queen’, she rides her ‘silver’ across the grasslands that were once the Silver Sea. We could also called her a ‘fisher of people’. Since hatching her dragons, she’s attracted a multitude of people to her side, they follow her and support her cause, both her ‘apostles’ and the slaves she freed – rather like Jesus.



The Silver Sea has dwindled to three lakes since then and judging by location, these three lakes would be The Womb of the World and the lakes at Gornath and Sallosh (east to west). In the following passage, Dany cleanses herself in the waters of the Womb of the World after the horse-heart eating ceremony:



The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it. Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. The stallion’s blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth. Dany cupped her fingers and lifted the sacred waters over her head, cleansing herself and the child inside her while the khal and the others looked on.



The Dothraki believe they originated from this Womb of the World. Dany enters this ‘womb’ to cleanse herself with its sacred waters. There is a reflection of the moon on the water, the moon being linked to conception, fertility and birth. The cold creeps up her thighs and kisses her sex – I like to see this as a reminder that the blood of her ancestors was originally not ‘heated by fire’. Finally, she emerges from the ‘womb’ cleaned of the blood that had covered her. In the next passage, randy Drogo can’t keep his hands off her. Though he still smells of horse blood, he does not enter the womb (and thus does not emerge ‘reborn’) – his seed also appears to go to waste, trickling down Dany’s thighs, negating procreation. My impression here is that Dany’s ancestors, rather than Drogo’s, once originated from this lake, i.e. from the original Silver Sea.




The lemurs, a stuffed example of which can be found at the Citadel, are called ‘little Valyrians’ because of their silver-white fur and purple eyes. Lemurs are primates and in the real world are found on Madagascar. I’ll spare you their evolution and biology but the interesting thing is they originated from the African continent millions of years ago and are believed to have reached Madagascar via floating islands of vegetation at a time when ocean currents favoured dispersal to the island. Does remind me of the floating palace of the Fisher Queens. Well, think what you will J




Let’s go back to the BSE.


As brother to the amethyst princess, he would have also borne this trait. Now, I do believe that he fathered children on his tiger-woman (made possible by sorcery) and would have passed the hair/eye color trait on to any daughters he may have had with this woman, they in turn passing the trait on to sons and daughters and so on. IMO, the BSE’s union with the tiger-woman also represents another layer of the Blood Betrayal. It is she who introduces tainted blood (or tainted genes) into the bloodline of the people of the dawn and this is where I think the ‘blood of the dragon’ originates. We basically end up with a bloodline exhibiting silver-gold hair and purple eyes as well as what I’ll simply term a ‘taint’ at the moment.




The legend does not tell us if the Opal Emperor had further children, but if he did, I imagine they would have horrified by the actions of the BSE. They may even have left the area entirely, migrating to a place as far away from the GEotD as possible. This would also mean that there are two different proto-Valyrian bloodlines out there – a ‘clean’ one and a ‘sullied’ one.




So which folk represent the ‘clean’ bloodline? As far as I can tell, the Daynes probably do.



As she led the princess to the fire, Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. “My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days,” he complained.



The first Dayne arrived in Westeros in the dawn of days, at a time when the Arm of Dorne was still intact, with the First Men, or perhaps even before.




Anyway, the whole point is that I think the original proto-Valyrian bloodlines diverged at some point, giving rise to 1) a small untainted but isolated population in Westeros represented by the Daynes and 2) the tainted bloodline stemming from the union of the BSE and his tiger woman as seen in the Old Valyrians and their descendants. Note - this does not mean all of these have the blood of the dragon - that was engineered at some later point.



Divergent populations are actually represented in the books. The Dothraki and the Lamb Men are one example, and another, the Walrus Men, one group of which wears walrus tusks and the other antlers, who ‘love each other not’.



Finally, the lemurs of Planetos offer another hint that the proto-Valyrians diverged at some point:


They are found on the Summer Isles and Sothoryos but are rarely seen further north – the one in the Citadel came from Qohor. The third group of people exhibiting a proto-Valyrian bloodline are of course the slaves of Lys.


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