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Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

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Deep Ones are definitely real...no doubt. But we know whose side they are on, and it isn't team human, unless we are talking thrall humans for rape-fodder.

The Deep Ones seem to be allies of the Others. Every single clue I have found about Deep Ones says this.

No way do ice and fire team up to fight deep ones. That's insane. NO offense, I think you meant it as a joke, but I have seen this seriously (but not credibly) suggested. But no. "These Others are my drowned men." "What dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." "Your drowned god is a demon in thrall to the great Other." "Dead things in the water, dead things in the wood."

Those are paraphrased but very damn close. Red streaks of fire trigger a river of black ice. Floods, ice, darkness - all are a result of the red comet.

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[snip]

Remember that time last paragraph when Azor Ahai lost his sword? Well, it might be needed again when the Others come!! Again, Azor Ahai was defeated, his sword take and probably reforged, and then used against the Others by the Last Hero. Case closed. ;)
A low rumbling growl echoed off the rock. Shadowcat, Jon knew at once. As he rose he heard another, closer at hand. He pulled his sword and turned, listening. “They won’t trouble us,” Ygritte said. “It’s the dead they’ve come for. Cats can smell blood six miles off. They’ll stay near the bodies till they’ve eaten every last stringy shred o’ meat, and cracked the bones for the marrow.”
Shadowcat, in addition to being the lion of night and a shadowsword which is infused with the power of shadow fire, ...

[snip]

The black stones had turned to grey and the eastern sky had gone indigo when Stonesnake spied the rangers below, wending their way upward. Jon woke his captive and held her by the arm as they descended to meet them.
The black stone (that the BSE worshipped) turned to a grey steel sword - Ned's sword - as Dawn broke after the LN. This is the reforging of LB with dragon glass. Remember the description of Ned's sword - very dark, smoky grey. This color transformation could also fit with the idea that Azor Ahai founded the Starks - black to grey - but I don't like this idea. If Azor was theLH, it's possible, because the LH is likely the founder of house stark, right?
But when he glanced up, he saw Ygritte watching with eyes as wide and white as hen’s eggs.
Ebben drew his dagger. “A steel kiss will keep her quiet.”

[snip]

Hopefully some of you can take a look at this chapter analysis here and have some insight.

I had to read your post twice and concentrate hard trying to follow your line of thought.

Even so this mountain climb as a metaphor for sword-forging still seems a stretch to me.

However ...

Your paragraphs I cite above did bring to mind Azor Ahai and how he tried to forge his sword: the first sword he had forged shattered in water (can't make anything of that in this context), but ... the second sword he tried to temper by thrusting it into the heart of a lion ... - conveniently a shadowcat shows up when Jon climbs his way up your metaphorical sword-fissure. But Jon does not stab it. Was he meant to? - the third sword Azor Ahai drove into the breast of his wife Nissa Nissa. - conveniently Jon has a wildling woman along who thinks of herself as his wife - but he cannot bring himself to stab her. Was he meant to?

I still think you are overinterpreting. But you did get me to thinking :P

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Awesome stuff, as always. This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back to this forum.


Regarding the Church of Starry Wisdom, the obvious link to the Lovecraftian mythos sprinkled about Planetos can't be ignored.


IIRC, the CoSW was, in Lovecraft, concerned with Nyarlothotep, who could not endure the light.


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Well, that's a great catch that my pattern-happy eyeballs did not see... You might be over-analyzing, you know :laugh:



I understand this chapter analysis is really pretty far ahead of my essays. I haven't laid out all the proof for some of these ideas yet, but I amspeaking of them as old friends, so I understand if some of it doesn't make sense. Still, the chapter is loaded with comet imagery. And when a chapter starts off with "They could see the fire in the night glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star," you know that has my attention.



Your observation is great, and a crucial one - Jon does not kill Nissa Nissa here. I think this is likely an allusion to what our common sense was telling us - Jon, as Azor Ahai, should not do the things Azor Ahai did, necessarily.

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Awesome stuff, as always. This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back to this forum.

Regarding the Church of Starry Wisdom, the obvious link to the Lovecraftian mythos sprinkled about Planetos can't be ignored.

IIRC, the CoSW was, in Lovecraft, concerned with Nyarlothotep, who could not endure the light.

Indeed, and those shadow-binders cannot tolerate the sun.

Of course, neither can the Others....

Thanks for the kind words, very appreciated :)

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Well, that's a great catch that my pattern-happy eyeballs did not see... You might be over-analyzing, you know :laugh:

I understand this chapter analysis is really pretty far ahead of my essays. I haven't laid out all the proof for some of these ideas yet, but I amspeaking of them as old friends, so I understand if some of it doesn't make sense. Still, the chapter is loaded with comet imagery. And when a chapter starts off with "They could see the fire in the night glimmering against the side of the mountain like a fallen star," you know that has my attention.

Your observation is great, and a crucial one - Jon does not kill Nissa Nissa here. I think this is likely an allusion to what our common sense was telling us - Jon, as Azor Ahai, should not do the things Azor Ahai did, necessarily.

Thank you :)

Since we are already on this track of over-analyzing here is the same pattern again from ASOS chapter 26: Jon says " he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning."

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The God on Earth was born from a union between the Maiden made of light ( Sun) and the lion of night ( black Sun) . But most likely god on Earth it's not the son of two suns. Any idea who his true parents are?

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Thank you :)

Since we are already on this track of over-analyzing here is the same pattern again from ASOS chapter 26: Jon says " he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning."

I do like this "Jon encounters Azor Ahai symbols" thing. Good catch everyone.

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Thank you :)

Since we are already on this track of over-analyzing here is the same pattern again from ASOS chapter 26: Jon says " he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning."

Those are all significant constellations, no? The comet plays the role of Morningstar / Evenstar in the story. The red fire sword is the sunset sword, leading to nightfall, while the white ice sword is the sword of the morning, bringing the day - it's a matching relationship. My theory is that the comet started out a normal color - blue and white - the colors of Dawn and Icy things in general. The meteor which made the sword Dawn came from this first "tempering" of the comet as it gained a tail and began to break off material. This meteor which fell to Starfall from the comet was the Dawn meteor. Later, the comet becomes red, splits, hits the moon, and the "fertilized" moon rocks (drinking the sun's fire) are used to make Dark Lightbringer. So the sword of the morning is the Morningstar, and dark LB the Evenstar.

Except... Thematically, the Morningstar is the one who challenges God and fails, falling to earth. That's AA. It's the Evenstar that is seen as resurrected, lord of the Underworld. Death occurs at sunset / Fall season, and resurrection at Dawn / Spring. This means the "sword of the morning" should be the resurrected guy.

This is where the sword switching come into play. The icy sword is in the south (at Starfall), and the fire sword in the north (at Winterfell). That implies a switch. And in the ToJ, the swords seem switched, as I noted above. Ned brings Dawn (original Ice) back to Starfall - that seems like what happened originally, that an ice warrior brought the ice sword to Starfall, and the fire warrior (LH now, is that the resurrected AA?) brought the fire sword north. This is why it's not a straightforward puzzle with an easy answer. There was sword switchery.

The moonmaid must be an allusion to Nissa Nissa, right? Actually, something just occurred to me. We have two kinds of maidens that we see, repeatedly. Shy maids, and fair maids. Fair Maids are a reference to Virgo, who holds the scales of Libra - literally, a maiden who is just. Ser Galladon, who represents one of our magic sword wielders, gets the sword the Just Maid when the "Maiden herself" loses her heart to him. Maris the Most Fair, daughter of Garth, runs from Argoth Stoneskin and marries Uthor Hightower. This is a fire moon story, a reference to Io and Argus. I'm going to dive into that in a future essay, but take my word that Maris the Most fair is the fire moon. Which would make Ser Galladon AA, which is what I suspected.

That might mean that the shy maid, the moon maid who is "shy as ever," might be the ice moon. I can't see immediately what the connection is there, but let's think on this.

Shadowcat is the LoN, and the Ice Dragon (Draco and the North Star) might symbolize Jon himself. Fire dragons are the offspring of comet and fire moon, so ice dragons are the offspring of comet and ice moon. Jon also represents the offspring of the comet and ice moon, equating Jon with the Ice Dragon.

So, this is basically Jon's family. The Lion of Night is his dad, the Night Sun. The Moon Maiden is the Ice moon, his mother. The sword of the morning is... Well... His daddy's penis / an extension of his father, and the Ice Dragon is Jon himself. Family photo everyone!

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I have a question. The fact that Jon refused to do all these thing that Azor Ahai did may mean that he will atone for his predecessor's sin? And Dany did what Azor Ahai did; she sacrificed her love, and her children to get dragons; do this mean in my eyes that Dany will repeat the mistakes? If yes, then that means the recarnation of the Amethyst Empress has become the Bloodstone Emperess, and the Bloodstone Emperor the Amethyst Emperor?

And to make matters worse, you mentioned that Dany is trusting Quaithe's advice, her own prophecies and her dragon without seeing the potential havoc it may play on her life. This goes in line with one observation that I've made regarding Cersei and Dany's similarity; BOTH GOT PROPHECIES at a young age.

Maggy the frog's prophecy ruined Cersei's life, and I have no doubt that Dany's dependency on prophecy will also drive her mad. You would do well to remember the Mad King's life story, and how the prophecy that the PTWP would come from his and Rhaella's line resulted in so much sorrow and disaster.

So how do it ties back to Jon, the new Azor Ahai atoning for the sins against the Fire Moon? He will sacriface himself to stop a mentally unstable Dany, just as Jaime will do with Cersei.

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I have a question. The fact that Jon refused to do all these thing that Azor Ahai did may mean that he will atone for his predecessor's sin? And Dany did what Azor Ahai did; she sacrificed her love, and her children to get dragons; do this mean in my eyes that Dany will repeat the mistakes? If yes, then that means the recarnation of the Amethyst Empress has become the Bloodstone Emperess, and the Bloodstone Emperor the Amethyst Emperor?

And to make matters worse, you mentioned that Dany is trusting Quaithe's advice, her own prophecies and her dragon without seeing the potential havoc it may play on her life. This goes in line with one observation that I've made regarding Cersei and Dany's similarity; BOTH GOT PROPHECIES at a young age.

Maggy the frog's prophecy ruined Cersei's life, and I have no doubt that Dany's dependency on prophecy will also drive her mad. You would do well to remember the Mad King's life story, and how the prophecy that the PTWP would come from his and Rhaella's line resulted in so much sorrow and disaster.

So how do it ties back to Jon, the new Azor Ahai atoning for the sins against the Fire Moon? He will sacriface himself to stop a mentally unstable Dany, just as Jaime will do with Cersei.

That's an interesting take, other shave raised a similar point as far as the BSE / AE and their roles reversing to some extent. Most seem to agree things won't happen as they did last time. But it's hard to say - I mean, Dany may play the BSE role and invade Westeros, fire and blood, but what if she changes her mind at the end? Pulls back from the brink? I can see that happening. And the same can be true the other way.

Then there's the more Daoist view - we need light and dark to play their oles, same for ice and fire. We need dragon fire consuming energy, just as we need freezing ice preservation. But in balance. So maybe Dany needs to learn to embrace, but master, her dragon fire energy and use it in the right place. I think it's possible Azor Ahai did that very thing - if he is also the Last Hero, then he may have redeemed himself.

Other people read all this Quaithe stuff and conclude that we NEED some starry wisdom, and just maybe they are the ones who know what's up. They have the oldest knowledge, besides the cotf. Anyway, it's interesting how Martin has left himself room here. He's foreshadowed all kinds of things, and you never know when something will be reversed or inverted. We can solve all of his riddles and still not know how it will end... that's good writing, I am thinking.

One final point - although he doesn't kill Ygritte here, in his Azor Ahai dream, he kills Ygritte, and usurps Winterfell after killing rob. That's Bloodstone Emperor stuff... so it seems like it could go either way for Jon or Dany.

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And I also noticed that Dany seem to share some parallels with Sarah Kerrigan. In her backstory, Sarah was a pisonically gifted girl who was taken by the government after she accidentally killed her mother and rendered her father into a coma. During her time under the government's care she was maltreated and forced to go through training to become a governmental assassin. She lost her free will and took part in many assassination of dissidents before the villain Arcturus Mengsk freed her, only to betray her by leaving her to die at the hands of the Zerg. She had some resentment toward the man for this betrayal and took her anger out by killing him at the end of Heart of the Swarm.

What this in my opinion, means that Dany like Sarah killed her mother in childbirth. Her father was not sane by our standards, and nor was Sarah's. And I see her as she really is, a powerless pawn because of her lack of education, and easily manipulated by the Church of Starry Wisidom. Like Sarah Kerrigan, Dany is suffering all her life, just as she was.

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Lucifer means Lightbringer, on 21 May 2015 - 1:59 PM, said:

I am going straight for facts this morning. I'm not grumpy or anything but I am going to correct the record a bit, because I am big on going off the text as opposed to people's various ideas about things.

Um, what? I go off the text, too. All my ideas come from the text--what is there and what seems to be obviously missing and needing to be filled in.

Reindeer men ARE a cotf faction. They are directly tied to the Sacred order of the Green hand.

I did say they were a CoTF faction.

You may have a hard time seeing the Garth revivalist in the north, but they are there nevertheless. It's not hard to understand - the wildlings were first men who were caught on the wrong side of the Wall. They took the old religions with them - how not?

...yes. No disagreement that wildings are First Men. Probably have customs influenced by Garth. But...Garth revivalists? Not sure I'm seeing that in the text.

Of course they have the selkie vs. antler men rift:

After the riders came the men of the Frozen Shore. Jon watched a dozen of their big bone chariots roll past him one by one, clattering like Rattleshirt. Half still rolled as before; others had replaced their wheels with runners. They slid across the snowdrifts smoothly, where the wheeled chariots were foundering and sinking. The dogs that drew the chariots were fearsome beasts, as big as direwolves. Their women were clad in sealskins, some with infants at their breasts. Older children shuffled along behind their mothers and looked up at Jon with eyes as dark and hard as the stones they clutched. Some of the men wore antlers on their hats, and some wore walrus tusks. The two sorts did not love each other, he soon gathered. A few thin reindeer brought up the rear, with the great dogs snapping at the heels of stragglers. “Be wary o’ that lot, Jon Snow,” Tormund warned him. “A savage folk. The men are bad, the women worse.”

-- ADWD, Jon

These two groups do seem to be using imagery of a CotF/Horned King faction versus a Selkie/Deep Ones faction. Not disagreeing. I'm just saying I don't see enough detail to point to Garth revivalism, specifically. Not that there is absolutely no Garth-imagery influence. Garth and CotF would both be representing the earth in the battle with the selkies. And the CotF are linked directly to elk/reindeer through the character of Coldhands without having to go through Garth; seems like a simpler connection to me. These horned folks have been living for a very long time in a place with CotF and no Garth, so I would think they'd identify more with CotF specifically than the person of Garth the Green specifically.

The Horned Lord is absolutely a reference to the Horned Lord of Celtic and Pagan myth, as is Garth. This tradition has, for a fact, survived in the North.

Of course.

QuoteThe credit for all of these discoveries about Deep Ones vs Green Men goes to Crowfood's Daughter. Anyone curious about this topic should read her essay.

-- My current position on Wildlings is that they are descended from First Men, but have far more CotF blood and far less (perhaps no) GeoDawnian blood. {And the you/us that Osha and Ygritte are referring to is GeoDawnian-infused humans (who were influenced by GEotD concepts like formal hierarchies and chivalry and agriculture and became the legendary house-founders and later petty kings of the First Men—with a few houses also having CotF blood) versus humans who are either regular or only-CotF-infused (Wildlings—except Walrus Men who may be Deep Ones-infused, yikes).}

I think Garth was killed to bring the spring after the Long Night. It's the most likely thing - he is the original sacrificial deity, the original Corn King that dies in the fall to bring the spring. Our Garth stand ins are always killed by Azor Ahai - Renly killed by Stannis, Ser Galladon unshethingthe maid vs a 8ft opponent mounted on an aurochs, Arthur Dayne killed the Smiling Knight (reference to cheshire cat moon / horned moon), etc. The text seems to suggest that Azor Ahai killed Garth - that would have been during there Long Night. So it's completely possible that the pact was formed right after the Long Night, as I suggest.

--Yeah...we apparently disagree intractably on the roles of AA versus SE. Your reading points to Garth being sacrificed by AA, mine points to him being murdered by SE. Again I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And the Green Man/Corn King imagery for him is there for sure, but I don't think that means he has to fulfill every part of those myths.

Even with the hypothesis of Garth as the Emerald Emperor it's still impossible to reconcile every single legend about Garth. There's going to be some differences of interpretation.

Furthermore, Uthor Hightower, who commissioned Brandon the Builder to build the Hightower on top of the fused stone fortress, married a daughter of Garth, which would put Bran the Builder as a contemporary with Uthor and Garth.

--Not necessarily. That makes Uthor, Garth’s daughter, and BtB contemporary to the Hightower, and perhaps all three were also contemporary to Garth *at an earlier time*; Garth was not necessarily still alive for the commissioning of the Hightower just because his daugher and grandson were.

BtB is also associated with building the Wall, which happened after the Long Night most would agree, another clue he's contemporary with Garth, or at least the end of Garth's life. Brandonthe Bloody Blade may have been the father of BtB, and he's a son of Garth.

--I agree with this lineage: BtB son of BotBB son of Garth. I agree that BtB was involved with building the Wall. I agree that was after the Long Night was over or at least quickly receding. I do not agree that Garth was alive for the building of the Wall. It’s not logically necessary and, according to my model of events, he couldn’t be.

Then we have the fact that Brandon Bloody Blade was killing tons of cotf and giants, as were all the other Dawn Age First Men. If Brandon the Bloody Blade was still killing cotf in his day, then his son, who built things right after the Long Night, may have been the first Stark to NOT kill cotf. Another piece of evidence that the pact happened right after the LN.

--Here I also disagree. (As already mentioned, I don’t believe in Dawn Age First Men, except maybe Deep Ones worshipers from across Sunset Sea on Iron Islands, or GEotD trading posts.) This is where my hypothesis that CotF blood is key to tempering magic swords gives an explanation for FM/CotF violence post-pact. I think BotBB was not actually fighting CotF but rather trying to make another magic sword to counter the SE’s magic sword, which the SE had used to murder BotBB’s father Garth.

--According to this model the giants may have been fighting on the side of the SE—he had killed a CotF to forge his sword and giants are historical enemies of CotF. Makes sense to me, anyway. And I’m not sure giant-fighting counts as a problem anyway, since the pact was with the CotF.

--Is there mention of other First Men besides BotBB killing CotF at this point? I suppose some CotF could have joined the SE/GO, since according to my model he was half-CotF himself. Anyway, point being that I think fighting between First Men and CotF after the reported time of the Pact does not invalidate the reported time of the Pact.

I do not think anyone was in the North before the Long Night, myself. There is no evidence of anyone in the North before the Last Hero. Brandon Bloody Blade is from the reach. I suspect everything north of the neck was frozen before the LN, as the Arm of Dorne would have been still whole, and the Shivering Sea would have had no warm currents from the Summer Sea coming north. I think everything points to the Starks establishing Winterfell after the LN ended.

--This I am 100% on board with.

Yes, there is no question this antler-selkie rivalry is very, very old. The first men may have walk dingo it, or it may be that it started when the First Men began taking islands and coastal areas away from the merlings, selkies, etc. Everything about the Iron Islands is all about harvesting and reaping, while the Green Men are all about sewing and planting.

--I think it’s interesting that we see Deep Ones influence most in places where there wasn’t much GeoDawnian power in the Age of Legends. Tarth had the SE (according to me), Reach/Riverlands had Garth, Stormlands had Durran Godsgrief (probably, and before that it was likely under the protection of Garth). Dorne…well, seems like nobody was interested in Dorne, lol. And the shores are notably rough, maybe not good for Deep Ones coming ashore, either. And the North, as you say, was likely extremely inhospitable before the Arm broke and the warmer water came up the Narrow Sea. Everywhere else with a high proportion of shoreline has Deep Ones influence: Iron Islands, Three Sisters, The Fingers, Shield Islands (technically part of the Reach but on the periphery).

--So, if Garth was protecting the Reach/Riverlands, he would have definitely had conflicts with the CotF’s old enemies. And if the North was frozen then obviously all the Northern culture migrated from further south at some point, so could have Garthian influences regardless of whether they are revivalists per se.

--Garth, defender against selkies ect. Could explain why the FM didn’t already cross the Arm on their own—too much warm coastline there, danger of Deep Ones attack.

--Hm…wonder if Garth broke the Arm, or was behind the breaking somehow? Garths’ FM were already over, and he wanted better weather so…hmm. If a GeoDawnian can explode a moon, surely another one can break a land bridge. Could also have been a move against the Deep Ones who had been bothering them as they crossed, flooding the southern DO’s cozy domains with icy northern water (but then they adapted and moved north to torment more people…Garth fail, lol).

FWIW I am in the VoFM camp on this debate.

--Withdrawn. On second thought I don’t think I’m in anyone’s camp enough to debate this much text at once, lol. I do agree with the exploded fire moon, and that there is a fire sword and an ice sword in play in this story.

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Deep Ones are definitely real...no doubt. But we know whose side they are on, and it isn't team human, unless we are talking thrall humans for rape-fodder.

The Deep Ones seem to be allies of the Others. Every single clue I have found about Deep Ones says this.

No way do ice and fire team up to fight deep ones. That's insane. NO offense, I think you meant it as a joke, but I have seen this seriously (but not credibly) suggested. But no. "These Others are my drowned men." "What dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." "Your drowned god is a demon in thrall to the great Other." "Dead things in the water, dead things in the wood."

Those are paraphrased but very damn close. Red streaks of fire trigger a river of black ice. Floods, ice, darkness - all are a result of the red comet.

Ha, yeah, it was meant tongue-in-cheek. :-)

This is a bit of a quibble, but I'm not totally sure if the Others and Deep Ones are allies per se or just both hate people. One hates land-beings, the other hates warm things.

I made the crack about ice and fire teaming up just because I was thinking about earlier discussions of Jon as Azor Ahai perhaps being able to bridge the gap and bring peace between the sides...but I guess a cease-fire is a lot different than an alliance, lol.

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You keep referring to the Saphhire Emperor.. while I am not against hypothesizing, let's remember that there is no sapphire emperor. I am not for or against your hypothesis - I want to see how it holds up under scrutiny to the text - but you seem to be basing a lot of things on him, so just a word of caution there. Just to be clear, are you basically referring to the Night's King as a son of Azor Ahai, something like that? I'm very interested in your ideas about Tarth, Serwyn, and Symeon...all I am saying is, we need to find more textual support for your hypothesis.

I think we probably have to explore Garth on his own - I really don't see anything connecting him to the GEotD. All of the people that came to Westeros by land can't really be considered to be "from" the GEotD - that's a land migration of centuries, if not millennia. People who came to Westeros by boat directly from the GEotD, okay. Garth came over the land bridge and doesn't have any gemstones, no other traces of GEotD.

You're also making a very large assumption with projecting chivalry on to the GEotD. I mean... maybe, but there really aren't any clues about chivalry near the GEotD. You made that connection based on tying Garth to the GEotD, with Garth's son having founded chivalry. But that is one very tenuous assumption built on another, you must realize. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it lacks strong support in the text.

I was using "Garth revivalist" in a very loose sense. I simply mean that the antler men / green man culture seems to still exist there, nothing more. ;)

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Ha, yeah, it was meant tongue-in-cheek. :-)

This is a bit of a quibble, but I'm not totally sure if the Others and Deep Ones are allies per se or just both hate people. One hates land-beings, the other hates warm things.

I made the crack about ice and fire teaming up just because I was thinking about earlier discussions of Jon as Azor Ahai perhaps being able to bridge the gap and bring peace between the sides...but I guess a cease-fire is a lot different than an alliance, lol.

It's interesting because the term "song" can be a battle or a lover's dance, and he plays with this dualism so much. The comet as a sword that kills or as an act of procreation... life and death. Fucking and fighting. As for ice and fire.. they have to "balance," somehow, but what does that mean? Hard to say. There's a continuum of teamwork there; enemies that balance each other are kind of using teamwork, from a certain perspective. So it will be interesting to see how it plays out. At the very least, someone has to understand something about the relationship between ice and fire to fix whatever is wrong. Jon seems like that guy. I tend to think of Bran as pure ice, Dany as fire, Jon in the middle.

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I gave the Sarah Kerrigan analogy for a reason. In the first Starcraft game Sarah Kerrigan was constantly being manipulated; it is a theme I am beginning to see in Dany's arc. And a lot of manipulation often occurs in cults; often these people doing the manipulation are narcissitic and the unwitting victims often are isolated, uneducated or both. Dany shares this trait because she was exiled when she was small, and frequent upheavals like the events she experienced often damage any chance to get an education. And I also see that Visery's words and abuses isn't helping matters.

What I am pointing is that Dany experienced emotional and physical abuse at the hands of her brother. Same goes for Sarah Kerrigan, during her time at the Ghost Academy she suffered emotional and physical abuse at the hands of Lieutentant Rumm. This shaped Kerrigan's character to have a lot of suppressed anger, and I wouldn't be surprised if Dany shared the same trait.

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You keep referring to the Saphhire Emperor.. while I am not against hypothesizing, let's remember that there is no sapphire emperor. I am not for or against your hypothesis - I want to see how it holds up under scrutiny to the text - but you seem to be basing a lot of things on him, so just a word of caution there. Just to be clear, are you basically referring to the Night's King as a son of Azor Ahai, something like that? I'm very interested in your ideas about Tarth, Serwyn, and Symeon...all I am saying is, we need to find more textual support for your hypothesis.

I think we probably have to explore Garth on his own - I really don't see anything connecting him to the GEotD. All of the people that came to Westeros by land can't really be considered to be "from" the GEotD - that's a land migration of centuries, if not millennia. People who came to Westeros by boat directly from the GEotD, okay. Garth came over the land bridge and doesn't have any gemstones, no other traces of GEotD.

You're also making a very large assumption with projecting chivalry on to the GEotD. I mean... maybe, but there really aren't any clues about chivalry near the GEotD. You made that connection based on tying Garth to the GEotD, with Garth's son having founded chivalry. But that is one very tenuous assumption built on another, you must realize. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it lacks strong support in the text.

I was using "Garth revivalist" in a very loose sense. I simply mean that the antler men / green man culture seems to still exist there, nothing more. ;)

I guess I didn't explain in my own post as well as I thought i did. Or maybe we are just seeing different things in the text. I'll give it one more go and then you can just shake your head if it's still not working for you, and I will lay off the SE stuff in your threads. :-)

To be clear, you are obviously correct in saying that there was no Sapphire Emperor. There was no Emerald Emperor, and no Ruby Emperor. But I think there were three demigods from the dynasty of gemstone emperors who represent sapphire, ruby, and emerald, and that once they are put in their proper place in the story the symbolism and imagery attached to those particular three gemstones will fall into place much more cohesively than it seems to at the moment.

But here is what I see when I look at the line of god-kings who ruled the Great Empire of the Dawn:

- Each seems to be a demigod; they have very long lives, enough power to rule a huge empire, and two gods as ancestors (Maiden Made of Light and Lion of Night)

- Each demigod is identified with a precious stone.

- The stones seem to correspond to eye color, as Dany's dream ancestor's eyes are described in gemstone terms.

- The stones also seem to give some hint as to the nature of these god-kings. Again we can look at the Amethyst Empress. Amethysts in ASOIAF are primarily associated with Sansa's hair net, which carried purple poison for the purpose of betrayal and the casting down of a monarch (Joffrey). Dany of the amethyst eyes will apparently know three treasons, and the Sons of the Harpy tried very hard to cast her down by using poison. The other gemstones are hard to speculate on, since there's less of a clear pattern of meaning attached to them in the novels. Pearl does seem to connote a legitimate ruler, especially in Yi Ti where the memory of GEotD culture seems best preserved--perhaps that's what jade as well. Perhaps from the Yi Ti custom of clothing rightful rulers in pearl and jade we can conclude that the demigod rulers associated with pearl and jade were the best rulers--or at least the most powerful. The line of emperors certainly does seem to go in order from best to worst (or most to least powerful)--"yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it." The tourmaline emperor appears to have followers to this day in the Qartheen Tourmaline Brotherhood; they are wealthy but they don't seem to do much. The onyx demigod shared eye color with Khal Drogo, perhaps he was a great warrior, or an ancestor of the Dothraki--given Jorah's comparison between Robert and Drogo maybe we can imagine what kind of ruler the Onyx Emperor was. The topaz demigod was apparently false in some way; yellow topaz shares a sword belt and color with Stannis's false Lightbringer (and there is literally no other reference for topaz.) Opals in ASOIAF are always associated with royal gifts that have sinister undertones (I break that down in my Illyrio analysis); the demigod of opal gave the crown to his daughter only for it to cause her betrayal and death. So I feel safe saying there is some kind of pattern here in terms of the associated gemstone being related to the demigod's nature.

Then I look around at the rest of the rulers in the Age of Legends time period. One of them seems to fit the above description really well. Garth the Green is:

- described as both a god and a king

- apparently very long-lived

- associated with a color that reflects his nature. Granted I don't think there is mention of him having green eyes, but every other part of him is described as green--why not the eyes? There's no other eye color given, certainly. And I think you agree with me that Renly represents Garth in the confrontation with Stannis. That's a lot of specifically emerald imagery floating around a Garth figure.

Other things we are told about Garth:

- he came from the East

- he led the First Men from Essos and was their high king--meaning he brought the concept of monarchy to Westeros

- he also taught the First Men agriculture

- his son reportedly brought the concept of chivalry. This feels a lot less random if the son is reclaiming part of his father's heritage that if he just comes up with the idea of chivalry.

All of these things indicate someone from a more advanced civilization teaching things to the First Men. The only advanced civilization around at this time is the GEotD.

A sapphire-related demigod is in some ways more obscure than the emerald one, but he ties up a lot of loose ends. If we posit a sapphire-eyed demigod who also comes from GEotD to Westeros, then all of the sapphire imagery that feels like it must be related but it isn't really clear how slides into place.

Why is Tarth the Sapphire Isle?

What's up with Ser Galadon? His "magic sword"? Which is apparently so potent he only unsheathes it three times?

Why are there Age of Legends knights who seem to have so much in common with Others?

Why do the Others have sapphire eyes? The wights? Why is blue so associated with death?

Why does Lyanna get specifically blue roses? Why are winter roses blue? Why associate blue with winter in the first place?

Why is the Stranger depicted with sapphire eyes?

Why is Morne considered an Andal settlement when the timeline clearly points to it being First Men?

Why are the arms of House Tarth two moons and two suns, quartered on red and blue?

Who is Stannis portraying in the confrontation with Renly? Someone cold, ambitious, blue-eyed, with a dark magic sword. Not Azor Ahai (sorry, there is just so much symbolism of falseness attached to Stannis whenever he's trying to play Azor Ahai.

What is the Great Other? What is the story behind the duality of R'hllor--a fire figure associated with rubies who represents light, facing off against an icy death figure who's minions have sapphire eyes?

Why did the Children of the Forest know how to kill the Others--but didn't do it? CotF don't seem to have a problem with killing--so long as it's not their own. In fact the only species the CotF have not reportedly killed is each other and Others. But they're not allied with the Others because they helped the humans kill them. So what gives?

I can answer every single one of these questions by positing the not-actually-that-far-fetched existence of a sapphire demigod who is half-CotF, who makes the first heart-tempered blade, kills Garth and some of his children, masters ice magic, and becomes known to R'hllorists as the Great Other, nemesis of Azor Ahai, and to the CoSW simply as the Stranger. "We don't sing about the Stranger." His sword is Ice, opposite of Azor Ahai's fiery Lightbringer. Blue and red, ice and fire, sapphire and ruby. When opposed to the emerald demigod, he is winter to summer. Together the three of them make red, green, and blue; ruby, emerald, and sapphire. The three forks of the Trident.

It just fits so neatly into the huge gap in our sapphire symbolism knowledge and ties everything up so neatly. A sapphire demigod whose nature is ice. No textual proof per se, just a really neat fit into the gap.

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I think we've already had ruby and emerald rulers in the Targaryen and Baratheon-Lannister dynasties. The sapphire will either be, imo, Stark or Other related, or maybe some combination of both. I think the three forks of the Trident could serve as foreshadowing for this third dynasty of Westeros. It could also hint at the three heads of the dragon, as well. And of course it could also be foreshadowing for both.



Here's my thread on emeralds, which touches on these subjects. Keep in mind that this was written pre-TWoIaF. - Link


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I guess I didn't explain in my own post as well as I thought i did. Or maybe we are just seeing different things in the text. I'll give it one more go and then you can just shake your head if it's still not working for you, and I will lay off the SE stuff in your threads. :-)

To be clear, you are obviously correct in saying that there was no Sapphire Emperor. There was no Emerald Emperor, and no Ruby Emperor. But I think there were three demigods from the dynasty of gemstone emperors who represent sapphire, ruby, and emerald, and that once they are put in their proper place in the story the symbolism and imagery attached to those particular three gemstones will fall into place much more cohesively than it seems to at the moment.

[...]

Very nice stuff. Though I have to wonder, why are ruby, emerald, and sapphire demigods in Westeros rather than the GEoTD?

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