A God-King by Any Other Name: The secret history of three Gemstone Emperors

[oursisthefury69]

^ I mean i dont discount the relevance of the Green Men or the Old Ones, but I think the Others will ultimately be a creation of the Children. I like your astronomy thoughts especially when regarding the affecting of seasons and beginning of the LN, but idk how much it'll ultimately play into this.

Your dead trees comment definitely has something to it, where they have similar language as Others description, which I obviously think only goes towards my point of the Others being potential consequence of Greenseers being disembodied from their godhood after Weirwoods began being chopped down.

I'm not sure how I feel about "rebel greenseer men" but I think that's on the right track of something people don't really discuss/consider, something I believe to have been the case, where the Children/Greenseers weren't all on the same side. I think there's some reason to believe this just from the story's regrdng them dropping the hammer of waters each time they did; As they didn't break the Arm of Dorne until it was too late and their attempt at dropping it on the Neck was unsuccessful, which is implied to be the case because the Cronnogmen had grown close to the Children during this time and also learned some of their powers i.e Some Children were against men where other Children were protective of them. It becomes difficult what with the limited history we're provided and the long gap between the Pact and the Long Night.....

[Han Snow]

Just remember:

ONLY THOSE WHO LEARN TO WALK THE PATTERNMAKER'S MAZE PROPERLY WILL EVER FIND THEIR WAY TO WISDOM, THE PRIESTS OF THE PATTERN SAY.

Who do you think the Patternmaker is? ;)

This is a clear nod to late great Roger Zelazny and his Chronicles of Amber. Martin and him were great friends.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pattern

Only those of royal blood of Amber can walk the Pattern.

Martin believes in having mysterious lands and weird nations with fantastic histories on the periphery of his world. And the farther away a nation is, the weirder the stories become.

"Here be Dragons" effectively.

It is a literary device.

Secondly, Martin loves homages to the sci-fi and fantasy authors he grew up reading and admiring. Combining these two factors, gives us the fantastic stories from faraway lands in his world, with vaguely familiar names and histories, including references to Deep Ones, Hyrkoon, Stygai, God-Emperors, Golden Empires, Winged Men etc. etc.

Combine Edgar Rice Burroughs with Robert E Howard, HP Lovecraft and a dozen other great authors in this field, and you have the source of Martin's faraway lands in his World of Ice and Fire.

Ashhaii is pretty much the really unique aspect here, and it is no coincidence that it is mentioned in the main series as well, and linked to the origin of dragons multiple times.

The rest - Great Empires, Yi-ti, Opal, Gold, Platinum, Uranium and whatnot Emperors, well, they're just background noise, giving some life to the world.

Yes and No.

They are more than just background noise.

[The Green King]

Ever considered this? :

 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son of Garth Greenhand, and ancester to Bran The Builder and The Starks, Loves Rose (who alledgely is also a daughter of Garth Greenhand, and thus Brandon's of th Bloody Blade's sister, she's a skinchanger -she could change into a crane at will-) end Rose will become known as Rose of Red Lake.

 

But the lake known as Red Lake in the Reach, used to be a Blue Lake before Brandon's transgressions.

 

Brandon killed a lot of CotF, so many in fact that the lake turned Red. There might have been a battle between the First Men and the CotF, but Brandon's ferrocious transgressions infuriate the CotF so hard that they decide to reply by calling down the 'Hammer of the Waters

 

The chants of the CotF are so strong that they do cause a polarity shift in Planetos magnetism so strong it actually intensifies the sunspear and cause it to penetrate the fiery second moon. Result: Explosion of the Moon >> Hammer of the Waters/ Birth or falling of the fiery dragons.

 

Consquence >> Start of the Long Night (Dust clouds around Planetos due to volcanic out bursts everywhere)

                  

In Westeros:

 

CotF and The Others are actually distant family, they evolved differently, yet after battling with the Others,  the CotF got to apoint them the place to reside aka Lands of Always Winter. The had no longer any quarrel. Until now.

 

Cotf had succeeded in bringing down the Hammer, they did try to create 'paradise' and First Men were welcome, until the transgressions of Brandon

 

>> Hammer comes down

 

>> In Westeros most of the meteor material that falls down and causes shocks, earthquakes, and also tsunamis and The Breaking of the Arm of Dorne  

 

>> Result: flooding of the land until deep in the land >> Fist Men have the choice go to higher ground or more up       North >> also destruction of lots of the vegetation in Dorne due to the combination of the imense brutal power of the water in combination with the meteor material and lots of floating rubble and rocks from the Arm of Dorne ( kind of a sand papering effect on the vegetation) >> Result of the flooding = chemical impact on meteor material = Cooling down quite fast = creating obsidian too (in Westeros) >> Chemical/Magical creation of the Pale Stone: Hot Viscous Meteor Material + Weirwood Tree(s) (becomes stone too) + The Bashing of the Sea as a forging hammer and  bringing intense cooling off in intervals (note 'salt' and 'smoke')

 

 

 

>> Yet unexpected consequence(s) of the 'Hammer' event >> Birth of dragons in the East >> This angers the Others, the heat that was brought down displeases them/ feel betrayed (they might even have lost their reproductive abilities, or their women/queen) >> they come to  Westeros to reek havoc in the territories of the CotF (and First Men) >> even more cooling of (good for the meteor material) >> so screwed for the First Men, who have bronze weapons which are no match for the others.

 

>> The Tale of The Last Hero = a dog, a horse, 12 men + the 'last hero'

>The Last Hero = Brandon of The Bloody Blade (because of the shame and peril he caused he is forced to go looking for the CotF)

> 12 companions + Brandon of the Bloody Blade = the first 13 Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch

 

>> His companions die during what is the 1st Ranging, likely got even taken by the Others., he finally finds the CotF >> He begs forgiveness and brings peace message and gets dragonglass in return >> he can return to the First Men and deliver the obsidian = the first turning point in the advantage against the others >> realistic option:  Dawn and Ice are forged, version 1.0 = bronze laced with obsidian 

>> magical option: They later recieve the magical blades from the CotF

 

Result in either way:

Dayne forges  the blades or witnesses the forging >> the Smith (why the color of the eyes and hair is indicative of the forging) >> the genetic change is either through the forging or the wielding of Dawn 

Brandon of the Bloody Blade >> Warrior in either case >> Still 13th Lord Commander of The Night's Watch (forced to face the others because of his deeds)

 

>> The Others get pushed back way up North

 

>> Water has slowly pulled back out of Westeros

 

>>CotF are happy >> Angry Cousins are gone (First Men seem handy allies) 

                                >> First Men are willing to have peace

 

>> The Pact:

>Woods and Hills for the CotF (they have no claim on more since they do did wrong withthe excessive force of the Hammer)

>First Men get the open lands where they can build.

> The Punishment of Brandon: His life is spared because of his heroism against the Others, gets exiled as the destined watchman on the border of the realms of CotF+Men and the Others

 

>> the Tragedy of Brandon of the Bloody Blade > Rose of Red Lake is no longer to be foun

      >> He still has his son (might be Brandon the Builder already) 

 

>> Brandon of the Bloody Blade  = 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch

> gets sent up North (maybe with a few others, just a handful)

 

>> He settles in the North and founds the 1st Nightfort

>> He helps his son(s) start the Building of the Wall = 1 Night's Watch at the Wall 

>> The wall is not magically enhanced through 'spells' = it's filled with obsidian aka dragonglass

 

 

>> During building of the wall >> he sees his wife,  Rose of Red Lake again, only this time, she's blue and as cold as ice.

 

>> Brandon of the Bloody Blade = The Night's King

>> Rose of Red Lake = The Night's Queen (but notice that she's becmoe a blue icy Rose)

>> The Original 1st Nightfort = now known as Craster's Keep

 

>> Craster= Inbred descendant of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, the first Night's King

 

>> Brandon the Builder

> continues the Wall and finishes it with lots of help, but is also responsible for the secret passageway in the nightfort (Black gate, is the connection between, Brandon the Builder, 1st Night's Watch at the Wall and the passage to the South of the Wall) > this is the reason why there needs to be a Stark at Winterfell

> Is responsible for the 1 building(s) of Winterfell

> is likely to be a Father of several sons >> Let's them go build in his name

> is the first to be able to warg into a Direwolf (enherited from mother before she was turned)

> might also have had other magical powers

 

 

> >The other side of the 1st Night's King:

> He tries to spare his son(s), family and other Northerners by offering his children to the others. 

> might also been the father to Coldhands

> inbreeding became the habit, it's sacrificial to live this way and this is done to please the Others and Keep them away from anybody south of the Wall, especially before the Wall was finished

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Dragon has three heads]

Sadly, many of the answers have more mundane answers than many people would prefer. The Saphire Isle was likely created entirely to facilitate Jaime's subterfuge in preventing Brienne's rape when claiming her father had lots of saphires.
 
The Children are a million years old, and probably predate every other sentient race on the planet. They know the origins of the Others. Why they didn't kill them - well, that needs to be revealed.
 
The Seven are a fantasy equivalent of Christianity, but instead of a Trinity, the twist is to change it to a Septrinity, or whatever the correct term for a seven sided thing is.
 
There is a nice example of the mundane nature of a lot of Martin's meanings in his great weakness for alliteration, for instance. Many names or descriptions might look like they have deeper meaning, while the reality is that Martin just looked for good sounding alliteration in as many names as possible. His alliteration is absolutely over the top.
 
Barristan the Bold
Brandon of the Bloody Knife
Brandon the Burner
Brandon the Builder
Garth Greenhand
Roddy the Ruin
The Wandering Wolf
Lomas Longstrider
Widows Wail
Azor Ahai
High Heart
Fist of the Firstmen
Weeping Water
Dance of the Dragons
HardHome
Battle of the Blackwater
War over the Waters
Whispering Wood
Defiance of Duskendale
Baelor Breakspear
 
I am not even touching the surface here. There are 10 more examples for every one I typed out off the top of my head here. The point is, if I wanted to, I could too try to tie every example of alliteration into some deep, underlying pattern to show how it signifies something more. I could spend hours, days doing that.
 
And meanwhile I would be totally missing the boat, because the real reason is that Martin just has a massive thing for alliteration. He likes how it sounds. There is nothing more to it than that.
 
The same applies to Opals, Sapphires, Rubies, Amethysts and who knows what other stones are mentioned through the course of the text.

I believe you will eat yours words...uh gems.

The whole yi ti, leng, ashai business is far FAR too convenient to be dismissed as martins(or in this case elio and Linda's?) writing whims.

And your example, though correct in that Martin does love to use alliteration, misses the connection between Danny's HOTU visions and those of the GEOTD.
Somehow the 'bad' magic got involved, and through multicultural and racial retellings the truth has become indiscernible from myth. Let alone whose side was who.

The OP IMHO does make some leaps, and isn't 100% there, but I think there's definitely something to the gemstone references and those of the emperors of the the Dawn.

The targs(valerians)and daynes(last vestige of the empire?)are involved too I think, not sure how as yet.

[LmL]

What I don't understand is how people simply make baseless assertions about any given thing NOT having a double meaning. Sure, not everything has a double meaning. But can anyone say for a certainty there IS no double meaning to any given thing? No, of course not. Any time George describes the drapes or the food or the costuming or the sigils or the bloody moon, etc, he MIGHT be hiding some symbolic double meaning in any of them. God bless the skeptics, but just because one does not see the double meaning doesn't mean it isn't there.  It's fine to say "I don't buy that," or "I don't think that one has a double meaning," but people too often have to go the extra mile and categorically rule out any sort of significance or metaphor, and that's always a baseless assertion when anyone makes it. 

 

I'm sure many interpretations will be wrong - no doubt - but we can't know for a fact that any given statement is innocuous. We just can't. And there's really no harm in trying to solve these riddles. :)

[Ser Frank Lucas]

I'll have to read through this at some point completely.. It's late atm so I didn't get chance.

 

Really awesome post. I can't believe one or two retards think there is no significance between Sapphires and secrecy.. It's clearly used EVERY time it's brought up to symbolise secrecy. 

 

ANYWAY. I just wanted to say, your post makes a hella lot of sense. Although I'll have to reread it when I have more time and then I can point out things I might not feel flow.

 

My question though, is how none of you in this thread have said that Garth the Green could be Coldhands? I mean they have an identical appearance (except the sapphire eyes).. Even if he is dead and simply being controlled. They are identical in appearance are they not?  

 

Also I was wondering, what happened to the Sapphire Emperor? I probably missed it because I skipped lots of the post. But if the Sapphire and Blood Stone Emperor are two main characters, then how did they meet there ends, and where will they be prior to getting reborn?

 

Look forward to hearing your answers. :)

[LmL]

I for one think Coldhands is an undead greenseer, perhaps a Sacred Order of Green Men dude. Whether he is Garth himself... I dunno. Certainly possible.

[J. Stargaryen]

I thought this was an interesting read, though I think the Targaryens were the ruby dynasty, and the Baratheon-Lannisters the emerald. I think the books will end with a new dynasty represented by sapphires/blue. I think it will be one, or some combination, of: Jon Snow, House Stark, the Others.

 

Robert won the rebellion and usurped the IT when he killed Rhaegar by smashing his chest and spilling his rubies into the Green Fork of the Trident. Signalling the transition from one to the other. The usurper-bloodstone connection is present here, since bloodstone is green with red spots; Robert the Usurper, rubies spilling into the Green Fork.

 

Also note that the Trident's three forks are red, green and blue. Big dynastic altering events have already happened on the red and green forks. Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon I at the Red Fork, and Robert's aforementioned victory over Rhaegar.

 

Here's a link to my thread on [url=http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99747-emeralds/]emeralds[/url].

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

I thought this was an interesting read, though I think the Targaryens were the ruby dynasty, and the Baratheon-Lannisters the emerald. I think the books will end with a new dynasty represented by sapphires/blue. I think it will be one, or some combination, of: Jon Snow, House Stark, the Others.
 
Robert won the rebellion and usurped the IT when he killed Rhaegar by smashing his chest and spilling his rubies into the Green Fork of the Trident. Signalling the transition from one to the other. The usurper-bloodstone connection is present here, since bloodstone is green with red spots; Robert the Usurper, rubies spilling into the Green Fork.
 
Also note that the Trident's three forks are red, green and blue. Big dynastic altering events have already happened on the red and green forks. Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon I at the Red Fork, and Robert's aforementioned victory over Rhaegar.
 
Here's a link to my thread on emeralds.

Amazing work there. I'm totally in

[LmL]

JStar has a lot of great color symbolism analysis, and he's just generally full of great information. He's contributed quite a few ideas to my essays :bowdown:

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

JStar has a lot of great color symbolism analysis, and he's just generally full of great information. He's contributed quite a few ideas to my essays :bowdown:

Agreed

[J. Stargaryen]

You guys are too kind. :blushing:

 

Another idea I've seen about the Trident is that it represents the three heads of the dragon. This also makes a lot of sense to me, because the Targaryen sigil is one dragon with three heads, just as the Trident is one river with three forks. I don't think this idea and mine are necessarily mutually exclusive either. It could be one or the other, but there could well be room for both.

 

Also note that the Trident's three forks are red, green and blue. Big dynastic altering events have already happened on the red and green forks. Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon I at the Red Fork, and Robert's aforementioned victory over Rhaegar.

 

I think it's probably clear where I was going with this, but I had meant to state that I expect something pretty significant to happen on the Blue Fork in the near future. Maybe GRRM already gave us a hint about what direction this is heading, since Robb told Cat of his plans to legitimize Jon Snow and name him his heir while they were at Oldstones, which is along the Blue Fork.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

You guys are too kind. :blushing:
 
Another idea I've seen about the Trident is that it represents the three heads of the dragon. This also makes a lot of sense to me, because the Targaryen sigil is one dragon with three heads, just as the Trident is one river with three forks. I don't think this idea and mine are necessarily mutually exclusive either. It could be one or the other, but there could well be room for both.
 
 
I think it's probably clear where I was going with this, but I had meant to state that I expect something pretty significant to happen on the Blue Fork in the near future. Maybe GRRM already gave us a hint about what direction this is heading, since Robb told Cat of his plans to legitimize Jon Snow and name him his heir while they were at Oldstones, which is along the Blue Fork.

This seems extremely legitimate to me. But what do you imagine will happen there? Surely you must have had something planned out already, even if only vaguely

[LmL]

This seems extremely legitimate to me. But what do you imagine will happen there? Surely you must have had something planned out already, even if only vaguely

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurpers rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened. (ASOS, Daenerys)

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

This seems extremely legitimate to me. But what do you imagine will happen there? Surely you must have had something planned out already, even if only vaguely

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurpers rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened. (ASOS, Daenerys)

I remember reading this scene. So is this some sort of foreshadowing? Seeing the future? A vision?

[LmL]

Maybe? Just throwing it out there. It came to mind when JStar mentioned the trident and a future event.

[J. Stargaryen]

This seems extremely legitimate to me. But what do you imagine will happen there? Surely you must have had something planned out already, even if only vaguely

 

I think the quote LmL posted hints at a battle. I expect Jon Snow will be involved somehow. Blue Fork/blue rose. FrozenFire3 did a great piece of analysis on the symbolism of the sepulcher at Oldstones. - [url=http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83666-rlj-v45/page-32#entry4286891]Link[/url]. It's worth a read.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

 
I think the quote LmL posted hints at a battle. I expect Jon Snow will be involved somehow. Blue Fork/blue rose. FrozenFire3 did a great piece of analysis on the symbolism of the sepulcher at Oldstones. - Link. It's worth a read.

Thanks for the tip I'll definitely gonna do a read through.

[StarkofWinterfell]

@Blind Beth the Cat Lady this was an excellent read! I think you're spot-on on many points!