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[Spoiler-Book] Jon, letters, Winterfell


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Didn't Theon kill all the ravens? I can't remember for sure, but I think he did. Not an insurmountable problem, I suppose... Is there enough time for a Pink Letter plot to be introduced & developed, though? It feels like there's very little time left for them to check all the plot boxes they still have to check.

Yes I figured as much. That is why I suggested Brienne gets to CB quickly. The show seems to move people very quickly.

There's no way there's a pink letter. As heavy handed as they are with the foreshadowing of Olly eyeballing Jon every time Jon says wildling...Jon gets it over the wildlings if anything. Unless they're doing all this Olly drama just to establish him questioning Jons judgement...with these writers you never know.

Yes Olly looks on the verge of stabbing Jon. Perhaps if he returns from Hardhome a message is waiting for him? To be honest, I was beginning to question whether the "For the Watch" scene would even happen. I believe it does, but...

We were debating this at work too. It seems as though Jon will make it back from Hardhome successfully so I imagine it would be a stretch for him to decide to abandon the Watch after taking such a gamble on the Wildlings. When the daggers in the dark come, I'd imagine it'll be because of his actions with the Wildlings and not anything to do with rallying men to go to WF to attack the men Stannis are already on their way to destroy. Purely speculation but that seems like the way it'll go from my eyes.

That is the way it seems to be panning out. The way things have gone, I can see Jon receiving the message and heading outside to make a move and then "For the Watch". So two important points of DwD hashed into a single scene subtly. That is a guess as well.

Part of me is sad that this will likely be the way it goes. I remember being close to tears of joy when I read the following excerpt in the books for the 1st time. Given how rare good fist-pump moments are in the series, I think it would be a real shame to rob that same feeling of euphoria (though short lived) from the show watchers.

Yes. That part of the book aside from "Edd fetch me a block" was great.

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Re-reading the pink letter I just realized something. If Ramsey did actually write it then why did he address Stannis as "your false king"? Why would Ramsey think he is Jon's king in the first place? Why would he be aware of "his red whore"? That would mean Stannis tells Ramsey in some way about her. I think this is highly unlikely that in the midst of battle this knowledge would some how pass to Ramsey. If in fact Ramsey did write this letter how will they portray it in the show? The letter would have to be written after Sansa escapes (if she does) because the letter in the book is written in the context of him wanting his bride back. Also since Mance is no longer alive how could he and his spear wives infiltrate Winterfell. That is also a subject brought up in the letter. It seems highly unlikely that Ramsey did write this letter after taking this into account.


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Re-reading the pink letter I just realized something. If Ramsey did actually write it then why did he address Stannis as "your false king"? Why would Ramsey think he is Jon's king in the first place? Why would he be aware of "his red whore"? That would mean Stannis tells Ramsey in some way about her. I think this is highly unlikely that in the midst of battle this knowledge would some how pass to Ramsey. If in fact Ramsey did write this letter how will they portray it in the show? The letter would have to be written after Sansa escapes (if she does) because the letter in the book is written in the context of him wanting his bride back. Also since Mance is no longer alive how could he and his spear wives infiltrate Winterfell. That is also a subject brought up in the letter. It seems highly unlikely that Ramsey did write this letter after taking this into account.

That's basically the basis of why so many people think either Mance or Stannis wrote it (along with a few other word choices, like calling the Watch "crows"). There's way way way more info and discussion on this in the book sections of the forum. I'm of the opinion it was from Mance so I also think it won't be in the show since Mance isn't.

ETA: btw, good on ya for seeing that on your own! I swear, I never pick up on any of the theories until I read about them online. R+L=J totally blew my mind when I read about it but now re-reading the books again a few times, I see it everywhere.

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That's basically the basis of why so many people think either Mance or Stannis wrote it (along with a few other word choices, like calling the Watch "crows"). There's way way way more info and discussion on this in the book sections of the forum. I'm of the opinion it was from Mance so I also think it won't be in the show since Mance isn't.

ETA: btw, good on ya for seeing that on your own! I swear, I never pick up on any of the theories until I read about them online. R+L=J totally blew my mind when I read about it but now re-reading the books again a few times, I see it everywhere.

I've been all over these threads for years and for some reason I just realized "why would he say your king". Other than that I've been quite aware of the fact that the author is unknown at this point. I always thought it was Mance too. I cant see Stannis taking part in such a "mummers farce" but the information in the letter is something that he knew the most about. The problem though is the show has made either of these scenarios less likely because of the changes they've made. Because of that I'm much more confused than I was dealing with the book version. :dunno:

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I've been all over these threads for years and for some reason I just realized "why would he say your king". Other than that I've been quite aware of the fact that the author is unknown at this point. I always thought it was Mance too. I cant see Stannis taking place in such a "mummers farce" but the information in the letter is something that he knew the most about. The problem though is the show has made either of these scenarios less likely because of the changes they've made. Because of that I'm much more confused than I was dealing with the book version. :dunno:

Ah gotcha. Apologies. Yeah it doesn't seem like the letter will be coming. Why would Ramsay even write it? He doesn't have Mance so if/when Sansa escapes, why would he connect that to Jon.
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i dont think they'll put the pink letter in the show

we have no mance/spearwives so no reason for Ramsey to even connect jon snow to theon/sansa

plus its not "arya" so will it even effect jon snow the same way?

I just have trouble seeing how they can't. Unless Jon isn't gonna make it back from Hardhome, you still need that motivation for him to lead into the Ides. The show has already put in a scene about Jon not wanting to ask Roose Bolton for help but doing it anyway, I believe there has to be some kind of Pink Letter-esque payoff. They don't really need Mance, they just need Ramsay trying to piss off Jon + Sansa and bragging about how he's married to her.

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I just have trouble seeing how they can't. Unless Jon isn't gonna make it back from Hardhome, you still need that motivation for him to lead into the Ides. The show has already put in a scene about Jon not wanting to ask Roose Bolton for help but doing it anyway, I believe there has to be some kind of Pink Letter-esque payoff. They don't really need Mance, they just need Ramsay trying to piss off Jon + Sansa and bragging about how he's married to her.

I'm going to be super sad, in a way, if they do include it because I am of the belief it came from Mance. Since it can't in the show, maybe Ramsay really did write it... and Stannis is dead.

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