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The Knight of Flours

One Question: How can Sansa marry?

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In all the outrage about Sansa's wedding night, has anyone asked the question 'ummmm how can Sansa Lannister marry?'



Despite Tywin's death, Roose Bolton (and his legitamised heir Rasmay) are beholden to King Tommen, whose laws prevail.



Under these laws, Sansa is still legally wed to Tommen's uncle Tyrion, so how could Roose or Ramsay believe that any issue of this marriage would be considered legitimate?


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In the eyes of the Lannisters no doubt she could not. To the Boltons though, a thousand miles away, what does it matter? They are playing their own version of the Game and Sansa helps seal their ownership of the North. That's the plan, anyway. Of course we all know what they say about plans! I think the whole thing just adds towards the feeling of chaos and the lack of central leadership. Cersei is too busy trying to fit up Margaery and Tommen is beyond a puppet. Nobody in Winterfell is going to question Roose Bolton... not if they like their skin attached to their body.


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In the eyes of the Lannisters no doubt she could not. To the Boltons though, a thousand miles away, what does it matter? They are playing their own version of the Game and Sansa helps seal their ownership of the North.

This, and the fact that is is known that Tyrion did not consummate the wedding and therefore the wedding ceremony has not been completed.

A septon should be able to nullify the wedding allowing for Sansa to be wed to someone else (pretty much the same with Maergery and Renly/Joffrey, she too was wed to these men, but the marriage was never consummated and therefore nullified).

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In all the outrage about Sansa's wedding night, has anyone asked the question 'ummmm how can Sansa Lannister marry?'

Despite Tywin's death, Roose Bolton (and his legitamised heir Rasmay) are beholden to King Tommen, whose laws prevail.

Under these laws, Sansa is still legally wed to Tommen's uncle Tyrion, so how could Roose or Ramsay believe that any issue of this marriage would be considered legitimate?

That is one giant plot hole in the show.

LF said that since Tyrion and Sansa never consummated the marriage, their marriage was automatically dissolved.

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The sad thing for me is that my justification for a possible legitimacy for R+L=J is the idea that ceremonies of different religions are recognized in their own territory meaning that someone could have a legitimate marriage in the south under the faith of the Seven, then make another union in the north under the old gods, which would still be legitimate as well.
I hate that this idea I've maintained in my own mind to make Jon have a chance of not being a bastard makes way for scenes such as this in the show, but being a standing belief of mine, I guess I must accept it and let this be further reason why I don't stress to see the episodes as soon as they air and why I simply cannot wait for TWOW.

The show might end the same as the books, but it seems to me that everything in between is just high budget fanfic.

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There is no plot hole, in the show there are differences and you have to accept it. The stone men live in Valyria instead of the Sorrows, is it a plot hole too or a mistake? No, it's a difference. And in the show, a marriage is not legitimate if there's no consummation. That's it. It's enough of a reason. Plus, the Boltons know that Cersei has other things to do in King's Landing and that she won't last long on the throne, so...


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the show made the situation fit what they wanted. Littlefinger's statement by all the gods/laws, since she was still a virgin, she is no man's wife etc....


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I wonder that too. I assumed LF would try to arrange that when he got to KL but the wedding happened before that and LF hasn't said a word to anyone about trying to annul it. I think it's a huge plot hole because one can't just say, "No, I'm not married anymore."


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This, and the fact that is is known that Tyrion did not consummate the wedding and therefore the wedding ceremony has not been completed.

A septon should be able to nullify the wedding allowing for Sansa to be wed to someone else (pretty much the same with Maergery and Renly/Joffrey, she too was wed to these men, but the marriage was never consummated and therefore nullified).

Also keep in mind, they are of the North, and follow the Old Gods. So, what would a Septon's opinion one way or another mean to them? The Boltons didn't have a Septon officiate at Ramsey's wedding.

It is different with Margaery, she was widowed, so although it was nice she was a virgin (mayhaps) on her wedding night(s), she was still free to re-marry in the eyes of the Faith.

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How can Sansa marry? Easy, that was so last season. No one remembers, least of all the North.


Add this question to where are Brotherhood, Blackfish, and Gendry?


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Thye can come up with a simple justification like "according to Westerosi law a marriage is considered dissolved if the parties failed to consummate their relations within a year, yadda yadda yadda".


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This setup would've worked much better, IMHO:

1. LF betroths Sansa to Ramsay at WF. Since he's going to KL anyway, he'll get an "official" annulment from the HS (or so he says). In the meantime Sansa can sew her wedding dress, and the resident maester can start scribing invitations. He leaves.

2. Roose has already found the loophole and rushes the wedding to cement his control of the North. He may or may not expect Stannis to march.

3. LF is dismayed when he gets news of the wedding but knows if Sansa has her way she'll be a widow sooner rather than later.

In the meantime let's hope she has a source for moon tea!

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They can come up with a simple justification like "according to Westerosi law a marriage is considered dissolved if the parties failed to consummate their relations within a year, yadda yadda yadda".


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So is GRRM a moron too? Is Sansa not supposed to marry in the books as well?

Is Sansa married yet in the books? Is she even betrothed?

Lysa waved a hand negligently. “Not for many years. You are too young to be a mother. One day you shall want children, though. Just asyou will want to marry.”

I . . . I am married, my lady.”

Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf’s leavings, but as he never touched you . . . How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?

....

“A marriage . . .” Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. “I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . .” Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. “I am married,” she whispered. “You know.”

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. “The dwarf wed Ned Stark’s daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa’s safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that.”

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Also keep in mind, they are of the North, and follow the Old Gods. So, what would a Septon's opinion one way or another mean to them? The Boltons didn't have a Septon officiate at Ramsey's wedding.

Well, no, this is not correct. The show is using the fact that her marriage is not consummated to say she is free to marry Ramsey. It has nothing to do with Old Gods and has not been annulled by a Septon. I am wondering how this will play out though. Logically, it can't be so easy and I'm wondering if this will somehow come back to Sansa. But yeah, it has nothing to do with Old Gods and the Faith.

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Is Sansa married yet in the books? Is she even betrothed?

Quote

Lysa waved a hand negligently. “Not for many years. You are too young to be a mother. One day you shall want children, though. Just asyou will want to marry.”

I . . . I am married, my lady.”

Yes, but soon a widow. Be glad the Imp preferred his whores. It would not be fitting for my son to take that dwarf’s leavings, but as he never touched you . . . How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?

....

“A marriage . . .” Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. “I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . .” Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. “I am married,” she whispered. “You know.”

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. “The dwarf wed Ned Stark’s daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa’s safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that.”

So your quote is supporting my statement, which was that Sansa was supposed to marry again in the books, not that she was, or was betrothed. The time frame, location, and person may be different on the show, but it seems like the end result of her marrying again is very likely in the books as well is it not?

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Apparently, in the show, the marriage ceremony in itself means nothing, and people could just go around Westeros marrying a bunch of people one after another, unless everyone has firm evidence that their marriages were consummated (maybe they have videos of every wedding night on weirnet?) "Oh yes, I married that girl over in King's Landing, but I never fucked her, I swear! So, I can marry you, too. Let's do it right now!"


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How can Sansa marry? It's only a question that has to be resolved by war, just like when Robb became King in the North. Sansa, more than anyone, embodies the defiance to the Lannisters. That's why even harbouring her is so dangerous to anyone who can't protect themselves, or isn't willing to fight the Iron Throne itself. That's why Lannisters should strike hard when they get to know her whereabouts, she sets their name back to towards the times of House Reyne. Cersei shouldn't be bargaining for her head on a spike, she would be demanding it; Kevan should be overlooking any family disagreements and calling the banners. If this gets out, how can KL be embroiled in a sex scandal when Roose, for all intents and purposes, is declaring the North independent? And Roose should be not only be wary of Stannis marching to WF, he should be paranoid Frey and even other northern lords willing to curry favour with the Lannisters by betraying him. All these potential plot holes don't exist in the books because


1. Ramsey is marrying fArya and it's a ploy the Lannisters are aware of, at the very least


2. Sansa is still in hiding and the people who are harbouring her aren't willing to declare war on the IT yet



Changing one plotline has a cascading effect, D&D have portrayed Cersei as sane, cunning and successfully strengthening her base whilst weakening her opponents. Yet this plotline will require her to be at some of her weakest. You can't successfully do both.


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Quote

So your quote is supporting my statement, which was that Sansa was supposed to marry again in the books, not that she was, or was betrothed. The time frame, location, and person may be different on the show, but it seems like the end result of her marrying again is very likely in the books as well is it not?

No. She can't get married before Tyrion dies, or she gets an annulment. But the trouble with the latter is that she has to reveal her identity first and ask the High Septon for annulment.

Planning a marriage =/= marrying. Is that really so hard to understand? In medieval times, and in ASOAIF as well, betrothals could even last for years. Cat was betrothed to Brandon since she was 12.

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