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One Question: How can Sansa marry?


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Apparently, in the show, the marriage ceremony in itself means nothing, and people could just go around Westeros marrying a bunch of people one after another, unless everyone has firm evidence that their marriages were consummated (maybe they have videos of every wedding night on weirnet?) "Oh yes, I married that girl over in King's Landing, but I never fucked her, I swear! So, I can marry you, too. Let's do it right now!"

Obviously, Rose Bolton is not a random peasant, he's Warden of the North. So no, not everyone can cancel a marriage like this. Tywin cancelled Tyrion's marriage to Tysha, remember?

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Obviously, Rose Bolton is not a random peasant, he's Warden of the North. So no, not everyone can cancel a marriage like this. Tywin cancelled Tyrion's marriage to Tysha, remember?

Yes,annulling a marriage to a peasant conducted by a drunken septon and with two pigs as witnesses is exactly as easy as annuling a marriage to a Lannister, conducted by the previous High Septon, in front of all your Lannister allies. Who, BTW, are less concerned about Sansa's marriage status than about the fact that she exists, and would immediately request her delivered to KL for trial.

Not to mention the fact that there's no mention of Roose annuling Sansa's marriage. Somehow, they just ignore it?

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Yes,annulling a marriage to a peasant conducted by a drunken septon and with two pigs as witnesses is exactly as easy as annuling a marriage to a Lannister, conducted by the previous High Septon, in front of all your Lannister allies. Who, BTW, are less concerned about Sansa's marriage status than about the fact that she exists, and would immediately request her delivered to KL for trial.

Not to mention the fact that there's no mention of Roose annuling Sansa's marriage. Somehow, they just ignore it?

I mean there's no evidence that Tywin ever annulled Tyrion's first marriage-I remember a fair bit of theorising on the book!forums that involved LF producing a fake Tysha to annul Sansa's marriage in the books.

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Yes,annulling a marriage to a peasant conducted by a drunken septon and with two pigs as witnesses is exactly as easy as annuling a marriage to a Lannister, conducted by the previous High Septon, in front of all your Lannister allies. Who, BTW, are less concerned about Sansa's marriage status than about the fact that she exists, and would immediately request her delivered to KL for trial.

Not to mention the fact that there's no mention of Roose annuling Sansa's marriage. Somehow, they just ignore it?

Well said but the show-apologists won't listen. "Hurr durr, you just don't like it 'cos it's different from the books"

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No. She can't get married before Tyrion dies, or she gets an annulment. But the trouble with the latter is that she has to reveal her identity first and ask the High Septon for annulment.

Planning a marriage =/= marrying. Is that really so hard to understand? In medieval times, and in ASOAIF as well, betrothals could even last for years. Cat was betrothed to Brandon since she was 12.

All I am saying is that the evidence in the books point towards Sansa marrying again. I'm not saying the who, what, when, and where because I know things have to happen before she can legally marry again. And on the show, all the details about annulment and asking the High Septon are things that are just not going to happen.

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The most stupid think of the whole deal is that the Boltons supposedly are marrying Sansa and Ramsay in order to gain legitimacy amongst the Northern lords. When it's obvious that whatever additional support they may receive it will be nothing compared to what they lose by betraying the Lannisters that have named them Wardens of the North. If their position is insecure now that King Stannis is attacking them, how can they think that insulting King Tommen is going to help them? :dunce:

This setup would've worked much better, IMHO:

1. LF betroths Sansa to Ramsay at WF. Since he's going to KL anyway, he'll get an "official" annulment from the HS (or so he says). In the meantime Sansa can sew her wedding dress, and the resident maester can start scribing invitations. He leaves.
2. Roose has already found the loophole and rushes the wedding to cement his control of the North. He may or may not expect Stannis to march.
3. LF is dismayed when he gets news of the wedding but knows if Sansa has her way she'll be a widow sooner rather than later.
In the meantime let's hope she has a source for moon tea!

That would have worked much, much better. It wouldn't have required Littlefinger and Sansa to act like idiots.

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This is just ridiculous. Westeros is a land where lords can behead or burn people at will, they can declare themselves kings, this is a land where kings can decide to marry their own sisters (or two at the same time if they want), and you really think that someone as powerful as the Warden of the North can't do what he wants?



There is only one law that rules Westeros : the law of the strongest. The strongest makes the law. If Roose was a little lord near King's Landing, he would never marry is son to Sansa. But he's Warden of the North, and the Crown is weaker than ever before. Is it legal to marry Ramsay to Sansa while she's technically still married? Probably not. Can Roose do that? Absolutely. Why? Because he's the strongest in that position : Tyrion won't complain, and if he did, he has no army to win. Cersei has still no idea that Sansa is in Winterfell (LF and Roose will probably wait until she's not a queen anymore to announce this wedding, as in the books for Harry the Heir).



This discussion is as ridiculous as the discussions about "who is the rightful king". You can debate 5 hours about what the law is, but at the end, it's still the strongest who wins and has the last word.


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Well in the books, Sansa is not Sansa anymore, she is Alayne.

True, but if she marries as Alayne, and down the line is revealed as Sansa, then it's exactly the same as the show because at the end of the day she is still married to Tyrion and technically shouldn't have married as Alayne. The same as she technically shouldn't have been married to Ramsay.

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The most stupid think of the whole deal is that the Boltons supposedly are marrying Sansa and Ramsay in order to gain legitimacy amongst the Northern lords. When it's obvious that whatever additional support they may receive it will be nothing compared to what they lose by betraying the Lannisters that have named them Wardens of the North. If their position is insecure now that King Stannis is attacking them, how can they think that insulting King Tommen is going to help them? :dunce:

That would have worked much, much better. It wouldn't have required Littlefinger and Sansa to act like idiots.

And you really think that Littlefinger or Roose expect some help from King's Landing? That doesn't even happen in the books either : Cersei doesn't care about the North, they are alone.

You can call that "idiot" all you want, but this alliance between the North and the Vale is smart and makes total sense. In fact, in the books, LF wants to unit the Vale to the North too... I guess you don't call that "idiot"...

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This is just ridiculous. Westeros is a land where lords can behead or burn people at will, they can declare themselves kings, this is a land where kings can decide to marry their own sisters (or two at the same time if they want), and you really think that someone as powerful as the Warden of the North can't do what he wants?

The story actually is about the people in power not being able to do whatever they want: Aerys,Joffery Robert, Drogo, Tywin,Dany,Jon,Robb and Cersei all suffer the consequences of doing as they please.

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Plot hole - or, apparently, "not consummated = not married". (Not convinced, personally).



I have another issue, too - isn't she on the run from the crown? Last time I checked, LF was smuggling and hiding her because she was being accused of regicide (or at least, being complicit in regicide). What, they just decided that now Tyrion's buggered off, Sansa had nothing to do with it either? Surely there's at least one person in the North realising that handing Sansa Stark to Cersei is going to get them some kind of reward (yeah it might be difficult, but not impossible, if they have LF's ability to teleport between the Eyrie, Moat Caitlin, Winterfell and KL in the space of three episodes). She's got a massive price tag on her head, show Northerners don't seem to care at all about the Starks (other than Mysterious Old Woman who might be Barbrey Dustin, a washerwoman or Mance Rayder, for all we know), someone should have the sense to at least contact the crown and go "uh, just a heads up, it's cool that we're marrying Sansa Stark to Ramsay, right?"


Also, LF: what, his "daughter", who he spent half a season making sure people believed she was legit, just randomly disappears? Just as Sansa appears again in the North? Come ON....


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True, but if she marries as Alayne, and down the line is revealed as Sansa, then it's exactly the same as the show because at the end of the day she is still married to Tyrion and technically shouldn't have married as Alayne. The same as she technically shouldn't have been married to Ramsay.

The subtle difference would be that people would allow the marriage to happen, because they wouldn't know about Sansa=Alayne yet. But yeah, beside that you are right, people would get mad after the reveal and would try to cancel it i guess.

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The story actually is about the people in power not being able to do whatever they want: Aerys,Joffery Robert, Drogo, Tywin,Dany,Jon,Robb and Cersei all suffer the consequences of doing as they please.

So what? I didn't say that this wedding would have a happy end. Stannis is coming, the Boltons will lose Sansa (and maybe she will kill someone before leaving or open the gates)... They will suffer de consequences.

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The sad thing for me is that my justification for a possible legitimacy for R+L=J is the idea that ceremonies of different religions are recognized in their own territory meaning that someone could have a legitimate marriage in the south under the faith of the Seven, then make another union in the north under the old gods, which would still be legitimate as well.

I hate that this idea I've maintained in my own mind to make Jon have a chance of not being a bastard makes way for scenes such as this in the show, but being a standing belief of mine, I guess I must accept it and let this be further reason why I don't stress to see the episodes as soon as they air and why I simply cannot wait for TWOW.

The show might end the same as the books, but it seems to me that everything in between is just high budget fanfic.

Why does Jon have to not be a bastard?

I would think that if it is revealed after all of this time that Jon is legit, it undercuts all of his character development.

Even by the books, it would take a lot of narrative juggling to spell out his Targaryen/Stark legitimacy.

I'd much prefer him as the grandest of grand bastards.

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Also keep in mind, they are of the North, and follow the Old Gods. So, what would a Septon's opinion one way or another mean to them? The Boltons didn't have a Septon officiate at Ramsey's wedding.

This was the first wedding we see in front of Godswood with no Septon. How come Rob was not married following this ceremony. They read vows to the seven. Is the Crag like Las Vegas? I think they have weirwood tree there and I thought the they were reading their vows by the weirwood. Do you suppose their was a description of North Wedding in book or they just made it up

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And you really think that Littlefinger or Roose expect some help from King's Landing? That doesn't even happen in the books either : Cersei doesn't care about the North, they are alone.

It does happen in the books. The Boltons receives help from the South (there's a Frey contingent there), and they also receive the nominal support of the crown which is very important. If Roose dared to do something similar in the book, Cersei would immediately declare Roose a traitor and name somenone else Warden of the North. The Freys would leave, the Northern Lords would desert the Boltons,...

You can call that "idiot" all you want, but this alliance between the North and the Vale is smart and makes total sense. In fact, in the books, LF wants to unit the Vale to the North too... I guess you don't call that "idiot"...

An alliance between the North and the Vale can be smart and make sense. The particular arrangements in this case and the decisions made by Roose, Littlefinger and Sansa don't make sense at all.

You are obsessingly trying to find details shared by books and show to extrapolate them and argue that the show is not worse than the book. It doesn't work at all. The problems that you are identifying in the books are addressed in the books themselves, while the plot holes in the show are just ignored.

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Getting back to Roose, how on earth does he hope to maintain his hold on the north if he betrays the Lannisters so openly? He has Stannis marching from the wall, and by openly accepting Sansa in Winterfell rather than sending her head back to Cersei in a box he can forget about help from the crown. Even the Freys now have to think twice about supporting someone who betrays allies left and right and has basically isolated themselves from the rest of the realm. Heck, even the north doesn't support the Boltons.



So going forward, I'd be interested to know if LF telling Cersei that Sansa is in Winterfell was part of a plan cooked up between LF and Roose. And if not, what is to stop Roose from telling the queen that he thought he was marrying his legitimized bastard to LF's legitimized bastard and it was LF who had Sansa all along? Oh, and by the way, here is Sansa's head.



I think things are a lot more dire for Sansa than most people realize.

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It does happen in the books. The Boltons receives help from the South (there's a Frey contingent there), and they also receive the nominal support of the crown which is very important. If Roose dared to do something similar in the book, Cersei would immediately declare Roose a traitor and name somenone else Warden of the North. The Freys would leave, the Northern Lords would desert the Boltons,...

Do you really think that the Freys and the Northern Lords support Roose because Cersei asked them to? Wow... The Freys support Roose because of their alliance (remember Walda and the Red Wedding?), the Northern Lords don't support him, that's why he needs a marriage with some Stark (Arya or Sansa) and even that can't give the Boltons any support from the Northern Lords because they plot against them (Manderly?).

The particular arrangements in this case and the decisions made by Roose, Littlefinger and Sansa don't make sense at all.

Can you develop a little, or are we supposed to believe everything you say? What doesn't make sense in an alliance between the Vale and the North, considering the fact that it's also considered in the books?

You are obsessingly trying to find details shared by books and show to extrapolate them and argue that the show is not worse than the book. It doesn't work at all. The problems that you are identifying in the books are addressed in the books themselves, while the plot holes in the show are just ignored.

You can repeat the word "plot holes" a hundred times if you want, it won't become true. Littlefinger discussed about the fact that the marriage was not consummated, and as I said before, they can do that because it's the law of the strongest. When Renly declared himself king of Westeros, did you call that a plot hole too? You know, the law of succession said that the king was Joffrey (or Stannis if you consider the fact that he's a bastard), not Renly, yet he declared himself king of Westeros.

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Getting back to Roose, how on earth does he hope to maintain his hold on the north if he betrays the Lannisters so openly?

Roose's reasons for accepting this marriage proposal don't make sense. Besides betraying the Lannisters so openly, he claims it builds an alliance. With who, the Vale? Please. And if he's hoping to use it inspire the northerners that's even more dubious. In the books, fArya is an attempt of legitimising the theft of Winterfell, that's why fAya's identity doesn't matter. A real Stark, however, is a much dangerous creature, as Wyman knows.

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