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The Knight of Flours

One Question: How can Sansa marry?

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Sansa and Tyrion never had sex, the marriage can easily be cast aside.

And I don't think the Boltons care if the Iron Throne finds the marriage legitimate or not. They want Sansa to bolster support from the Northerners, not take her to court and declare her Lady Bolton.

Indeed. Bolton is playing the short game because without that he doesn't have a long game. I think a lot of people still don't get that victory #1 for these characters is waking up alive in the morning.

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Walder Frey can be as happy as he wants. But openly supporting a traitor with the leavies of the Twins, it's a completely different thing. Just like during the Wot5k he probably wished the best for Emmon Frey and his kin, but he didn't give him troops.

My point stands: if Roose is declared a traitor by the Crown, his support will disminish.

Also, Walder Frey did not make a pact with the Boltons in order to betray Robb at the RW, he made a pact with the Lannisters. So unless and until the Lanns are no longer a military or political threat, Walder has to keep faith with them. That time may be coming soon, but it isn't here yet.

But that same calculus should be guiding Roose as well, if we are to believe he is the player that the show makes him out to be. By publicly revealing Sansa and marrying her to Ramsey, he is firmly committing himself to whatever plan he and Littlefinger cooked up and is relying on LF to keep faith with him (Hah!) in order to shield him from Lannister wrath. Littlefinger, however, still has his options open and can choose to betray Roose or Cersei (and probably both) as he sees fit. And now we know that LF wants to be WotN as well, so that doesn't bode well for Roose.

But maybe Roose isn't that smart after all. Cersei looked pretty sharp in the first season and seems to be in control now, but she is really a floundering idiot. And I guess that makes Ned an utter moron.

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In all the outrage about Sansa's wedding night, has anyone asked the question 'ummmm how can Sansa Lannister marry?'

Despite Tywin's death, Roose Bolton (and his legitamised heir Rasmay) are beholden to King Tommen, whose laws prevail.

Under these laws, Sansa is still legally wed to Tommen's uncle Tyrion, so how could Roose or Ramsay believe that any issue of this marriage would be considered legitimate?

Thanks god I'm not the only one taken off by this issue... Now Sansa must be killed since she committed the sin of fornication and heresy by marrying out of her own volition for a second time. What a shameless sinner. She wasn't forced like the crown forced her in her first wedding, she wasn't escorted by the Kingsguard, she had plenty of chances to run and she was a freaking Stark in Winterfell, that's like being Barack Obama.

In the eyes of the Lannisters no doubt she could not. To the Boltons though, a thousand miles away, what does it matter? They are playing their own version of the Game and Sansa helps seal their ownership of the North. That's the plan, anyway. Of course we all know what they say about plans! I think the whole thing just adds towards the feeling of chaos and the lack of central leadership. Cersei is too busy trying to fit up Margaery and Tommen is beyond a puppet. Nobody in Winterfell is going to question Roose Bolton... not if they like their skin attached to their body.

Regardless of religion, the wedding was performed at the eyes of gods and men and the crown, the same crown from which Bolton power comes... In the books LF does not forget this fact and the planned wedding takes into account that either Tyrion must be confirmed dead, the marriage anulled or the Lannisters must fall from power.

In show it doesn't make sense since the Boltons are rejecting Lannister authority by marrying Sansa Lannister (A fugitive of the law, and no longer a Stark, reason why Arya was important)... rejecting the IT is suicide since they don't have Northern support since they know of other Stark heirs, a certain will and have absolutely no love for Boltons and Lanns... let's admit it, the whole thing has no point, it was just a lame excuse to abuse of Sansa, as victimizing women is a custom of the show.

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To go the the general OP of the thread. I do think the show made a mistake in annulling Sansa's marriage in this fashion, it takes away from the severity and permanence of the marriages in this society. If everyone, intact hymen or not, could willy nilly make such decisions about marriage, the entire backbone of the feudal political system is made null and void. Such things shouldn't be handled by the Pimp/Purveyor of record in KL, nor even by a semi-besieged Warden of the North, what's to stop someone else coming along next week to reinstate Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Come to think of it........we can no longer USE the idea of an intact maidenhood to end that first marriage, can we?

As Stannis would say: D&D have made the laws of the realm out of pudding.

This is actually a consistent feature of the show and the books. It starts with Cersei dismissing Ser Barristan, which Tywin thinks is a dumb move but considers using that precedent to get Jaime out of the kings guard. I'm not sure but I think they even mention that precedent in reference to Janos Slynt and the NW in the books*, but I might be misremembering this. Then there's Robb Stark breaking his marriage pact with Walder Frey and Walder Frey damning himself and his house for eternity vis-a-vis guest right and the red wedding. The laws were pudding long ago.

Roose is weighing his immediate concerns over his alliance with the now-deceased Tywin Lannister. He's gambling that the Crown can't do anything about the Sansa marriage even if they wanted to, particularly if said marriage not only cements his hold on the north but also forges an alliance with the Vale, as LF outright suggests to him in conversation.

*Edit: I did mis-remember. It was Robb Stark talking about Legitimizing Jon snow and getting him out of the NW with the offer of men to replace him. Catlyn suggests this can't be done because his vows are taken for life. Robb replies that Ser Barristan's dismissal created a precedent.

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Thanks god I'm not the only one taken off by this issue... Now Sansa must be killed since she committed the sin of fornication and heresy by marrying out of her own volition for a second time. What a shameless sinner. She wasn't forced like the crown forced her in her first wedding, she wasn't escorted by the Kingsguard, she had plenty of chances to run and she was a freaking Stark in Winterfell, that's like being Barack Obama.

Regardless of religion, the wedding was performed at the eyes of gods and men and the crown, the same crown from which Bolton power comes... In the books LF does not forget this fact and the planned wedding takes into account that either Tyrion must be confirmed dead, the marriage anulled or the Lannisters must fall from power.

In show it doesn't make sense since the Boltons are rejecting Lannister authority by marrying Sansa Lannister (A fugitive of the law, and no longer a Stark, reason why Arya was important)... rejecting the IT is suicide since they don't have Northern support since they know of other Stark heirs, a certain will and have absolutely no love for Boltons and Lanns... let's admit it, the whole thing has no point, it was just a lame excuse to abuse of Sansa, as victimizing women is a custom of the show.

https://youtu.be/uxVrk9fNeR0?t=1m37s

https://youtu.be/-dcs4lnXebY?t=1m12s

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Even I felt disappointed that the show didn't address more seriously how sansa was legally Tyrion's wife. Yes the marriage is not consummated but for such a marriage to be annulled legally you need the authority of the septon to do it, you can't just get rid of a legal marriage because it is convenient. I hate how light they made of this fact, and also it took away the geniuses of Tywin plan when he made this alliance, Sansa being a lannister gave the lannisters authority over the North, ofcourse he did stress up on his son Tyrion to consummate the marriage but it was to produce an heir he didn't say oh you better sleep with her soon because your marriage is not legal yet. Old gods or new gods realm of the seven kingdoms were bound by legal marriages otherwise there would be bastards all over the place claiming rights over everything, and in high nobility it is a big deal because it determines the right of inheritance to lands of legitimate children. If Tyrion shows up tomorrow alive and well can he claim that Sansa is still his wife and any children Sansa has with Ramsay are bastards because they are not legitimate.


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Even I felt disappointed that the show didn't address more seriously how sansa was legally Tyrion's wife. Yes the marriage is not consummated but for such a marriage to be annulled legally you need the authority of the septon to do it, you can't just get rid of a legal marriage because it is convenient. I hate how light they made of this fact, and also it took away the geniuses of Tywin plan when he made this alliance, Sansa being a lannister gave the lannisters authority over the North, ofcourse he did stress up on his son Tyrion to consummate the marriage but it was to produce an heir he didn't say oh you better sleep with her soon because your marriage is not legal yet. Old gods or new gods realm of the seven kingdoms were bound by legal marriages otherwise there would be bastards all over the place claiming rights over everything, and in high nobility it is a big deal because it determines the right of inheritance to lands of legitimate children. If Tyrion shows up tomorrow alive and well can he claim that Sansa is still his wife and any children Sansa has with Ramsay are bastards because they are not legitimate.

The show did address it: the marriage wasn't consummated. I don't think the northerners care about or recognize the authority of the High Septon. The Great Jon Umber summed it up perfectly in the first season, "Their gods are wrong!"

Tywin is dead and if Tyrion shows up tomorrow alive, he's dead. He can't claim anything because he's a kingslayer and kinslayer who's been condemned to death. The headsman axe will annul the marriage right quick.

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The official "husband collection contest" is on between Sansa and Marge now.

Between them they could easily reach 7 husbands by the "Spring" book.

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This is actually a consistent feature of the show and the books. It starts with Cersei dismissing Ser Barristan, which Tywin thinks is a dumb move but considers using that precedent to get Jaime out of the kings guard. I'm not sure but I think they even mention that precedent in reference to Janos Slynt and the NW in the books*, but I might be misremembering this. Then there's Robb Stark breaking his marriage pact with Walder Frey and Walder Frey damning himself and his house for eternity vis-a-vis guest right and the red wedding. The laws were pudding long ago.

Roose is weighing his immediate concerns over his alliance with the now-deceased Tywin Lannister. He's gambling that the Crown can't do anything about the Sansa marriage even if they wanted to, particularly if said marriage not only cements his hold on the north but also forges an alliance with the Vale, as LF outright suggests to him in conversation.

*Edit: I did mis-remember. It was Robb Stark talking about Legitimizing Jon snow and getting him out of the NW with the offer of men to replace him. Catlyn suggests this can't be done because his vows are taken for life. Robb replies that Ser Barristan's dismissal created a precedent.

I've been wondering if the assasination attempt on Jon by NW members wouldn't then be sufficient grounds for Jon to walk free from the NW?

IMO a person shouldn't be required to stay in any organization that has attempted to murder him.

And that's exactly where it's left at the end of DWD. Jon should be released from those vows.

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Even though Tyrion and Sansa's marriage was not consummated and therefore can be annulled, you still need an official to annul it. And, as other posters have already mentioned, who would that official be? Definitely wouldn't be anyone from the south.



This does seem like a case of the Warden of the North just deciding that the Lannisters are weak, the crown is a farce, so let's just annul it ourselves and move forward.



Of course, by legitimizing this we are putting our own thoughts and research into the show and assuming that the writers and showrunners have give this as much thought as well. It could very much be the case that they have not and they are depending on people like us to scramble for adequate excuses to patch up their shoddy plot holes.


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While I get the idea around this question, I think it's kind of obvious how Sansa can marry again. Her marriage to Tyrion was done in the light of the seven, it wasn't consummated however. So, we don't have to concern ourselves with the details of it. Ok, she may have to go to a septon or even the High Septon to be annulled of a marriage in the light of the seven, but who's to say that didn't happen off-screen in the Vale?



The next thing is, this was a Northern Marriage in the tradition of the Old Gods. I find this interesting actually, more than the question of whether she can marry right now or not. Her marriage to Tyrion was done in the light of the seven, and Talisa and Robb's marriage was as well, yet Ramsay to Sansa is done via the Old Gods. Doesn't anyone find that odd? Did Robb follow the 7 like Cat? I guess what I'm getting at is, who's faith is followed for the marriage ceremony, the groom's or the bride's? It would make sense for the Groom if Robb followed the 7, otherwise this isn't making sense.



Now lastly... forget about whether she can marry now or not, the fact is, she IS married according to the Old Gods tradition, in front of a heart tree. Now, does the show forget everything in the source material or will it even matter because of the change in her plot compared to the books? I mean, if in the books Sansa marries someone other than a Bolton (which seems easily likely) does the show skip that? What if it's too central to her arc at that point in time? The show might be forced to flub an annulment of this marriage unless Ramsay dies... oh wait, SPOILER ALERT!



The issue with Sansa's marriage to Tyrion in the show is easily explained away and they probably won't elaborate any further on it then they have, but this marriage to Ramsay might still be muddy waters for them going forward and I just pray they've thought about that, but then again they'll probably gloss over that if they need to.


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Also, secretly known by Tyrion and by show Cersei atleast, Tyrion, as far as he knows, is married to Tysha who may or may not be still aiive. That marriage was performed by a Septon and consummated. His marriage to Sansa was invalid. I get it though, The marriage of Sansa and tyrion being waived off by Littlefinger as not valid as Sansa still being a virgin is ludacris. I think that may have been why the Allayne chapter was released in the beginning of April by GRRM. "So long as my dwarf husband lives, no man can marry me" is what Sansa, under the alias of Allyane says to herself. The Butterfly effect is huge.


D&D and Cogman deliberately wrote this season's Sansa storyline in their heads as a target 4 years ago that hell or high water they were headed there, so now that they have twisted and turned into complete nonesense regarding the show's continuity, just to get there. Makes no logical sense.


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No. She can't get married before Tyrion dies, or she gets an annulment. But the trouble with the latter is that she has to reveal her identity first and ask the High Septon for annulment.

Planning a marriage =/= marrying. Is that really so hard to understand? In medieval times, and in ASOAIF as well, betrothals could even last for years. Cat was betrothed to Brandon since she was 12.

When I was still writing ASOIAF fanfiction I looked up medieval canon law (also had this book about hostages in the middle ages which I never got round to reading) and if we take Gratian as normative, and look at a few cases that were similar to Sansa's (namely wards married off by exploitative guardians) they would indeed get annulments even with with consummation on the grounds that you can't force a girl to get married.

Adding to the fact that Joffrey was a bastard born of incest, not her liege lord, he had no right to be her guardian.

So she would have a great case for an annulment, but she would need to publicly apply for an annulment to the high septon.

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The subtle difference would be that people would allow the marriage to happen, because they wouldn't know about Sansa=Alayne yet. But yeah, beside that you are right, people would get mad after the reveal and would try to cancel it i guess.

Indeed this would be particularly disastrous for Sansa and any children she has with Harry the Heir: revelations of precontract could cause all children to be declared illegitimate. This is what Richard III did to his brother Edward IV's children with Elizabeth Woodville. Richard III claimed that because Edward IV had precontract with Lady Eleanor Butler, his brother's marriage with Woodville was invalid, which gave him the legal impetus for imprisoning his nephews in the tower and declaring himself king.

Even I felt disappointed that the show didn't address more seriously how sansa was legally Tyrion's wife. Yes the marriage is not consummated but for such a marriage to be annulled legally you need the authority of the septon to do it, you can't just get rid of a legal marriage because it is convenient. I hate how light they made of this fact, and also it took away the geniuses of Tywin plan when he made this alliance, Sansa being a lannister gave the lannisters authority over the North, ofcourse he did stress up on his son Tyrion to consummate the marriage but it was to produce an heir he didn't say oh you better sleep with her soon because your marriage is not legal yet. Old gods or new gods realm of the seven kingdoms were bound by legal marriages otherwise there would be bastards all over the place claiming rights over everything, and in high nobility it is a big deal because it determines the right of inheritance to lands of legitimate children. If Tyrion shows up tomorrow alive and well can he claim that Sansa is still his wife and any children Sansa has with Ramsay are bastards because they are not legitimate.

Actually according to medieval cannon law, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was legally sketchy at best and were the Lannisters to be deposed Sansa would have a very good legal case to make with the High Septon that her marriage to Tyrion was illegal. Thus even had her marriage to Tyrion been consummated, she could've still obtained an annulment, atleast insofar as the Faith of the Seven is based off the Roman Catholic Church.

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I'm surprised this thread is four pages long. The TV show rules and the book rules differ. Non-consummation automatically voids a marriage in the show. LF said as much to Roose and Roose didn't contradict him. I also think Iwan Rheon said something about Ramsay asking Sansa about Tyrion to verify that she was indeed a virgin, because otherwise Ramsay's marriage would be invalid.

In the books, non-consummation renders a marriage voidable, but an annulment by a High Septon or a Council of the Faith is still required, barring one of the parties dying.

With all that said, if nonconsummation were sufficient to void a marriage, you'd think Tywin would have leaned on Tyrion a lot harder to consummate the marriage, and that Tyrion wouldn't have referred to Sansa as his wife, when he was making no secret of not having consummated his marriage. Shouldn't that have come out at trial? "Conspired with her? I wasn't even married to her!"

I'm kind of surprised the marriage in the show was swept aside with one line of dialogue, given that it appeared to be a significant obstacle in the books to the HTH marriage. Either it gets properly annulled in the books or it's irrelevant to whatever happens with HTH.

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I'm surprised this thread is four pages long. The TV show rules and the book rules differ. Non-consummation automatically voids a marriage in the show. LF said as much to Roose and Roose didn't contradict him. I also think Iwan Rheon said something about Ramsay asking Sansa about Tyrion to verify that she was indeed a virgin, because otherwise Ramsay's marriage would be invalid.

In the books, non-consummation renders a marriage voidable, but an annulment by a High Septon or a Council of the Faith is still required, barring one of the parties dying.

I'm kind of surprised the marriage in the show was swept aside with one line of dialogue, given that it appeared to be a significant obstacle in the books to the HTH marriage. Either it gets properly annulled in the books or it's irrelevant to whatever happens with HTH.

you are correct. Another plot hole swept asside. They REALLY wanted to get Sansa in Ramsay's hands and the did what they had to, stupid and what not in the dialog to make that happen and well.....

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you are correct. Another plot hole swept asside. They REALLY wanted to get Sansa in Ramsay's hands and the did what they had to, stupid and what not in the dialog to make that happen and well.....

They do seem to have gone to a lot of writing trouble to make Sansa marry Ramsay. I realize that Sansa's AFFC storyline was dull as dirt, but I don't know how they go from "Sansa's AFFC story is some boring-ass shit" to "Make Sansa Ramsay's chew toy."

Normally, I would equate the Sansa/Jeyne mash up with the Jaime/Arys/Dorne mashup, but the fact that the writers were planning this since Season 2 makes me wonder where they're going with this. If they were willing to play fast and loose with the Dorne plot, why have Sansa hit the beats of Jeyne's plot? What is so important about having Sansa married off and raped? I could buy it if (and that's a big if) TWOW Sansa's storyline hits the same beats: marriage, traumatizing wedding night (maybe not to a psychopath, but to a Robert-type douchebag), Sansa plotting to escape, Sansa (presumably) turning on LF for selling her out, etc. That looks unlikely at this stage, though.

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I'm surprised this thread is four pages long. The TV show rules and the book rules differ. Non-consummation automatically voids a marriage in the show. LF said as much to Roose and Roose didn't contradict him. I also think Iwan Rheon said something about Ramsay asking Sansa about Tyrion to verify that she was indeed a virgin, because otherwise Ramsay's marriage would be invalid.

In the books, non-consummation renders a marriage voidable, but an annulment by a High Septon or a Council of the Faith is still required, barring one of the parties dying.

With all that said, if nonconsummation were sufficient to void a marriage, you'd think Tywin would have leaned on Tyrion a lot harder to consummate the marriage, and that Tyrion wouldn't have referred to Sansa as his wife, when he was making no secret of not having consummated his marriage. Shouldn't that have come out at trial? "Conspired with her? I wasn't even married to her!"

I'm kind of surprised the marriage in the show was swept aside with one line of dialogue, given that it appeared to be a significant obstacle in the books to the HTH marriage. Either it gets properly annulled in the books or it's irrelevant to whatever happens with HTH.

I'm thinking the show-marriage will be rendered useless. Sansa's still a Stark on the show, apparently, and they'll probably kill Ramsay at some point, so It will just be ignored, most likely. The show chooses to do that when the plot needs it.

Edit: It's been most likely speculated and almost confirmed that Sansa's storyline in TWOW won't involve her rape, so I just assume she'll lose her virginity to Harry after they marry. The Vale's going to Winterfell on the show too, so most likely LF's plan works.

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I'm thinking the show-marriage will be rendered useless. Sansa's still a Stark on the show, apparently, and they'll probably kill Ramsay at some point, so It will just be ignored, most likely. The show chooses to do that when the plot needs it.

Edit: It's been most likely speculated and almost confirmed that Sansa's storyline in TWOW won't involve her rape, so I just assume she'll lose her virginity to Harry after they marry. The Vale's going to Winterfell on the show too, so most likely LF's plan works.

If Sansa is widowed in short order on the show and in the books and winds up heading north in the books as well, then I don't see some huge impact on continuity, personally.

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If Sansa is widowed in short order on the show and in the books and winds up heading north in the books as well, then I don't see some huge impact on continuity, personally.

I think the biggest impact is in regards, not so much as bringing up the rape scene, but how this particular storyline felt just badly-plotted. I mean, who leaves their biggest asset on the hands of people he cannot control? LF just dropped Sansa and Robin like flies, when they are pretty much his biggest assets. What is stopping Ramsay from flaying Sansa and Bronze Yohn from betraying LF? That's one of my biggest complaints. The plot made no sense to get us where we are.

Although the same plot-point will be reached, I think, and I do agree with you. We know Show!LF wants to be Warden of the North, and Sansa's possibly becoming Wardeness of the North considering their interview. I'm thinking she'll turn the Vale against LF (There's no Alayne disguise) on the show when they enter Winterfell, one way or the other, with her Northern allies.

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