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The Knight of Flours

One Question: How can Sansa marry?

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In all the outrage about Sansa's wedding night, has anyone asked the question 'ummmm how can Sansa Lannister marry?'

Despite Tywin's death, Roose Bolton (and his legitamised heir Rasmay) are beholden to King Tommen, whose laws prevail.

Under these laws, Sansa is still legally wed to Tommen's uncle Tyrion, so how could Roose or Ramsay believe that any issue of this marriage would be considered legitimate?

Because the false Gods D&D say so, what, do you have a problem with that?

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I've been wondering if the assasination attempt on Jon by NW members wouldn't then be sufficient grounds for Jon to walk free from the NW?

IMO a person shouldn't be required to stay in any organization that has attempted to murder him.

And that's exactly where it's left at the end of DWD. Jon should be released from those vows.

I think that's exactly what will happen. A variation on that would be Jon actually dies and is resurrected somehow. He can walk away with his vows technically fulfilled. Anyone that has a problem with that, can just go ahead and ask the army of men who (pledged themselves to follow Jon to Winterfell) and one really pissed off giant what they think.

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I think the biggest impact is in regards, not so much as bringing up the rape scene, but how this particular storyline felt just badly-plotted. I mean, who leaves their biggest asset on the hands of people he cannot control? LF just dropped Sansa and Robin like flies, when they are pretty much his biggest assets. What is stopping Ramsay from flaying Sansa and Bronze Yohn from betraying LF? That's one of my biggest complaints. The plot made no sense to get us where we are.

Although the same plot-point will be reached, I think, and I do agree with you. We know Show!LF wants to be Warden of the North, and Sansa's possibly becoming Wardeness of the North considering their interview. I'm thinking she'll turn the Vale against LF (There's no Alayne disguise) on the show when they enter Winterfell, one way or the other, with her Northern allies.

The only consistancy I can see in books and HBO is Littlefinger's greed and while it makes no sense he would willingly give up Sansa when he undoubtably wants her all to himself, he might if he thinks he can have her for a lifetime and a bigger payout if he gives up that wedding night to some other man. It depends on how this is going to play out. I guess is that the bond or hold he had over her on the show will be severed as she must feel betrayed because she did everything since the discussion at Moat Caillin because she trusted him due to the fact that he is the only one around she somewhat knows.

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The Red Wedding only took place because Tywin Lannister allowed it. "Some wars are won with quills and ravens". Walder Frey supports the Boltons because it's in his interest to do it, and will stop supporting him when it is no longer. If the crown declared the Boltons and whoever helped them traitors, I fail to see why Walder would keep supporting him.

The position of "Warden of the North" is given by the crown, and the crown can revoke it at will. The same goes for the position of Young Lord Robin/Robert's Regent and Lord Protector of the Vale. The crown doesn't need to send troops. Only by calling them traitors and appointing others, their positions will be seriously compromised.

It seems obvious to me that the support of the crown should be worth more than the allegiance of the few Northern Lords fool enough not to understand that Sansa is just a prisoner of the Boltons.

Sure:

  • Sansa's plan makes no sense. She is giving herself willingly to the murderers of her family in exchange for a vague option for revenge. How she plans to get that revenge is unknown, but meanwhile she will be raped and politically used. Easily, she'll get pregnant and good luck then. This also place her at Winterfell, where an enemy army is approaching. This may mean a long siege, famine, and perhaps a sack of the castle and murder/more rape.

Roose's plan makes no sense. As said, his main supporters are the crown. Antagonizing them is a very bad idea, specially when the rival king is attacking him. The most that he can hope is to defeat Stannis, and hold the North for some years until the situation in the South is stabilized and they send an army against him. And of course, the circumstances of the marriage of his son to Sansa are more likely to turn the Northmen against him than the opposite.

Littlefinger's plan makes no sense. Sansa is a big asset to him (both politically and, if he loves her, romatically). Giving her away to the Boltons and receving nothing in return, makes no sense. A better plan would have been to wait to see if Bolton or Stannis emerged as victors of the battle. Also, if when he proposed his plan, Bolton had immediately brought it to Cersei (the most logical thing to do), he would have lost his head.

I repeat: an alliance between the North and the Vale can make sense. What's stupid is the particulars of "this" alliance between the North and the Vale. It doesn't beneft any of the participants, and it's just there for plot convenience.

This explains everything:

http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/116816249708/the-book-snob-glossary

D&D Logic: Boy. Things certainly are taking a confusing direction this season. But don’t worry, there’s a logic behind it…D&D logic! Darth Sansa’s best option for revenge is to marry brutal torturers who killed her entire family! Batfinger loves sending high-risk ravens through wormholes to arrange treasonous marriages! Carol gives weaponry to zealots very concerned about her children’s bastardy! Dany changes her ruling method more than she changes her [mercifully not blue anymore] wardrobe! You see, it all makes perfect sense to people who clearly don’t think through issues beyond the concept of “but wouldn’t it be cool if…” So like a throwing a pie in the face of a yeti, just sit back and let D&D logic fill you.

BatFinger: BatFinger is a mysterious man. He has a voice like the Malboro Man and an accent that… morphs on a sliding scale between Lucky the Leprechaun and Captain Barbosa. He has the powers of teleportation and telepathy, as he knows about events three seconds after they happen and can magically appear wherever he’s needed. Unfortunately, what BatFinger gains in magic powers, he lacks in common sense. BatFinger will outright tell Carol that he knows about her children being the product of incest. He’ll also send a raven to one of the Lannister’s closest allies and the House that betrayed the Starks to tell them he has Sansa Stark with him. Apparently he thrives solely on chaos, which is good, because there’s absolutely no logic in any of his decisions.

Darth Sansa: In Weisseroff, character development happens instantaneously and always coincides with a costume change. You can tell a female character has stopped being just a tool whose own development was tossed aside for the sake of making some other character look good, or some other character look bad (or some other character look good or bad depending on the scene), because, um, she have cleavage now. And she dyed her hair. She made the choice to dye her hair, guys! The fact that her plot is the opposite of agency-giving does not negate what an empowering figure Darth Sansa is.

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If Sansa is widowed in short order on the show and in the books and winds up heading north in the books as well, then I don't see some huge impact on continuity, personally.

On the show, that may in fact be true, since they have absolutely no clue about human psyche and how to write characters with plausible human reactions. Anyone who's not as clueless would realize that being raped - let alone when you're a 15-year old virgin - has huge emotional/psychological consequences and is something people carry with them all their lives. But I'm sure in the show, she'll just shrug it off like she broke a nail or something, because she is a "hardened woman" and "empowered".

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I just thought of something. Ramsay will have to prove that Sansa was a virgin. I bet that scene in the next episode might be her looking up at her hung bloody dress or bedsheet or something to symbolize that she was a virgin until he took her on the wedding night. Just a hunch based on this OP's topic.


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The subtle difference would be that people would allow the marriage to happen, because they wouldn't know about Sansa=Alayne yet. But yeah, beside that you are right, people would get mad after the reveal and would try to cancel it i guess.

It makes no sense for Sansa to marry Harry as Alayne, unless she is to have a completely invalid marriage, on two grounds:

1) false identity

2) bigamy

and each of those in itself is enough to completely invalidate it.

And obviously, if she is not to ever reveal herself as Sansa, then the whole point of marrying him is non-existent.

So, it only makes sense to reveal herself before going through with the marriage, which is what LF said anyway.

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I just thought of something. Ramsay will have to prove that Sansa was a virgin. I bet that scene in the next episode might be her looking up at her hung bloody dress or bedsheet or something to symbolize that she was a virgin until he took her on the wedding night. Just a hunch based on this OP's topic.

Good Idea. Just the messed up thing D&D would write and congratulate themselves on Writing. "The dress simbolizes so much character development."

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I must confess. I am haunted by the sounds of ep 6 still. I fear and dread that whole storyline. I really want Sansa to be away from Ramsay ASAP but logic tells me more is on the way.


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On the show, that may in fact be true, since they have absolutely no clue about human psyche and how to write characters with plausible human reactions. Anyone who's not as clueless would realize that being raped - let alone when you're a 15-year old virgin - has huge emotional/psychological consequences and is something people carry with them all their lives. But I'm sure in the show, she'll just shrug it off like she broke a nail or something, because she is a "hardened woman" and "empowered".

There has to be some lasting repurcussions from that night for her. There has to be. That was awful and it would be something that would haunt her character for the rest of her life, let alone ruin the thoughts of Winterfell as that once was her home and also the scene of her worst nightmare.

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I just thought of something. Ramsay will have to prove that Sansa was a virgin. I bet that scene in the next episode might be her looking up at her hung bloody dress or bedsheet or something to symbolize that she was a virgin until he took her on the wedding night. Just a hunch based on this OP's topic.

That is horrible! I hope that won't happen.

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That is horrible! I hope that won't happen.

I know but since there are questions regarding her and the Imp, it would be psychologically humiliating (up Ramsay's alley) and the way he proudly pecks her cheek as if he is rewarding her gives me the vibe this is a possibility. Note, this used to happen in some medeaval settings like royalty. The bedsheet was produced as an act of honor toward the bride. In Sansa's case it would be a further humiliation as it is a symbol of what she knows happened that night.

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There has to be some lasting repurcussions from that night for her. There has to be. That was awful and it would be something that would haunt her character for the rest of her life, let alone ruin the thoughts of Winterfell as that once was her home and also the scene of her worst nightmare.

Sorry, friend, but you know D&D. Once they are done with this, and I'm predicting the end of this season, Sansa will forget all about this, and probably forget it happened in Winterfell. Since her storyline is about becoming the Lady of Winterfell, she'll happy live there. I'm not even kidding.

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Sorry, friend, but you know D&D. Once they are done with this, and I'm predicting the end of this season, Sansa will forget all about this, and probably forget it happened in Winterfell. Since her storyline is about becoming the Lady of Winterfell, she'll happy live there. I'm not even kidding.

I know deep down that you are most likely right. I am embarrassed that an all male writting team for this season has done this to her character but when it was revealed that it want back to season two when the actress/target was so young, it still makes my skin crawl. Last Sunday night has been like a recurring nightmare for me. It is the only time in my life that I wish I was deaf.

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In all the outrage about Sansa's wedding night, has anyone asked the question 'ummmm how can Sansa Lannister marry?'

Despite Tywin's death, Roose Bolton (and his legitamised heir Rasmay) are beholden to King Tommen, whose laws prevail.

Under these laws, Sansa is still legally wed to Tommen's uncle Tyrion, so how could Roose or Ramsay believe that any issue of this marriage would be considered legitimate?

On the GoT wiki page, it still lists Sansa as married to Tyrion, so I suppose she has 2 husbands right now? Would that even be legal?

Granted, it's a wiki page, so obviously it could be an error, but it was a weird observation.

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I know but since there are questions regarding her and the Imp, it would be psychologically humiliating (up Ramsay's alley) and the way he proudly pecks her cheek as if he is rewarding her gives me the vibe this is a possibility. Note, this used to happen in some medeaval settings like royalty. The bedsheet was produced as an act of honor toward the bride. In Sansa's case it would be a further humiliation as it is a symbol of what she knows happened that night.

Yes he is a sadist.

Notice if you pause-start-pause that short clip. Ramsay is looking upwards as well. Does she try and light a candle and Ramsay hanged the aid? Or something else?

Going along with what you said, it wouldn't surprise me if he hung the bloody bed sheets up......

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Sorry, friend, but you know D&D. Once they are done with this, and I'm predicting the end of this season, Sansa will forget all about this, and probably forget it happened in Winterfell. Since her storyline is about becoming the Lady of Winterfell, she'll happy live there. I'm not even kidding.

Sansa has recounted the horrors visited upon her and her family on several occasions in the show. At Moat Calin to Littlefinger, Last season to the Vale Lords, Lysa Tulley, and Tyrion. We all saw how she reacted to the dwarf joust at Joffrey's wedding feast and how she reluctantly confessed Joffrey's behavior to Margery and Lady Olenna when questioned about it at brunch.

So no, I don't think so.

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I know deep down that you are most likely right. I am embarrassed that an all male writting team for this season has done this to her character but when it was revealed that it want back to season two when the actress/target was so young, it still makes my skin crawl. Last Sunday night has been like a recurring nightmare for me. It is the only time in my life that I wish I was deaf.

This whole idea that D+D waited till the actress was old enough is total bull. We didn't see the Sophie Turner go through anything that she hadn't gone through before. Back in season 2 she went through the same thing with Meryn Trant and no one complained back them. Meryn Trant ripped off her dress and all we saw was a bit of her back. Ramsay ripped off her dress and all we saw is a bit of her back. It's the same thing. She was raped off screen. They could've done the exact same thing at any age.

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This whole idea that D+D waited till the actress was old enough is total bull. We didn't see the Sophie Turner go through anything that she hadn't gone through before. Back in season 2 she went through the same thing with Meryn Trant and no one complained back them. Meryn Trant ripped off her dress and all we saw was a bit of her back. Ramsay ripped off her dress and all we saw is a bit of her back. It's the same thing. She was raped off screen. They could've done the exact same thing at any age.

They waited on the hope of being able to convince her of showing boobs most likely... I know this is a pessimistic idea, but sometimes I kinda thing they were just counting the days for her to turn 18 just to convince her and planned the whole charade on contingency but probably their wet dream just didn't realize, now they probably are waiting for Ms Williams so they can make it one more time. Or they'll simply look for someone else like a certain lady on Winterfell just to show some boobs.

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They waited on the hope of being able to convince her of showing boobs most likely... I know this is a pessimistic idea, but sometimes I kinda thing they were just counting the days for her to turn 18 just to convince her and planned the whole charade on contingency but probably their wet dream just didn't realize, now they probably are waiting for Ms Williams so they can make it one more time. Or they'll simply look for someone else like a certain lady on Winterfell just to show some boobs.

What boobs? We didn't see anything other than part of her back. We didn't even see any shoulders. Again, we saw more with Meryn Trant and also when she was almost raped before Sandor.

As far as Maisie, well,

if they're following the books then that has to happened doesn't it? Arya does start using more sex to entice people.

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