R+L=J v.142

[Ygrain]

Taking Ned's dream out of the equation for one minute and let's just evaluate his memories. He has a memory of Lyanna in a room. We know Robert Baratheon was not present because Ned reminds Robert that he was not present. We know that Lyanna attempts to extract at least one promise from Eddard. We know that Howland Reed and at least one more persons comes into the room with Eddard and Lyanna after she dies. We can assume that her death occurs after the sack of King's Landing because it was her death that reconciles Eddard and Robert. We also know that Eddard believes that Lyanna's wolf blood was a contributing factor to her death.

But why should you? Why do you think that GRRM wrote it then (and very elaborately)?

He has a memory of his fight with the Kingsguards, and this memory played out in a similar fashion to his previous dream about his fight with the Kingsguards. He reflects that it was said that Rhaegar referred to the location of his fight as "tower of joy". ETA: and the disassembling of the tower by himself and Howland to make the cairns for the 8 fallen.

I'd like to clarify here: do you claim that Lyanna never was at ToJ, or that she wasn't there any more at the time of the fight?

His conscious memories never place his fight with the Kingsguards along with the location and time of Lyanna's death.

This argument cuts both ways, though - his conscious memories never say that Jon is Lyanna's son.

So we are left with his dream. The chronology of the dream has the fight with the Kingsguards happening, Lyanna crying out to him, and Lyanna's death in a bed of blood and the dreaded promise. So as far as I can tell our only evidence despite having Eddard's POV that the Kingsguard's fight occurs before Lyanna's death and Lyanna being at the same location as the tower where the fight occurs, is that both of these events are portrayed in the same dream. Which at least in my mind is a bit problematic. Because it is not uncommon for us to mingle several events in one dream, where the passage of time and chronology gets a bit wonky. I think that Eddard may very well find that there is an interrelation between the two events for them to pop up in his same dream, but I think using the dream to assume location for Lyanna's death and chronology of the two events may be leading us down a primrose path.

Having had the dream of the KG, the tower and Lyanna in her bed of blood (which also became her deathbed) is also a conscious memory, though. The details may have gone differently in each dreaming but the content remains the same. I could agree that the chronology may be questioned, though I believe that Lyanna dying only after the fight makes more sense, but dreaming repeatedly about the tower and Lyanna's death establishes that the tower is the place where she died.

I am the one that asked GRRM this question at Conquest. I was not trying to be sneaky about Jon. I asked specifically because I have a theory about Ser Arthur Dayne being alive.

Ah, I see. My apologies then - I believe your question then achieved its purpose, even though you may not be satisfied with the outcome.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Why did Robert swear vengeance (before the Trident) instead of demanding to know Lyanna's whereabouts?

Why did Robert swear vengeance before knowing Lyanna's ultimate fate?

Why would Robert kill the one man who might know where Lyanna is without questioning him first?

Why didn't Brandon, Rickard, Ned OR Robert demand to know Lyanna's whereabouts?

Why do Jaime and Selmy not tell us that the Starks only wanted to know where Lyanna was?

Why doesn't Ned demand to know about Lyanna when he reaches the toj?

Why doesn't Ned ask Jaime about Lyanna when he encounters him in the throne room?

Why doesn't Robert ask about Lyanna after being presented with the corpses of Elia and babies?

There's a huge chunk of story missing, and the fanon does not fill it.

ETA why wasn't it a priority for ANYONE important (Ned, Robert, Rickard, Brandon, and other Stark/Stark Bannermen, any other Baratheon/Baratheon Bannermen) to inquire about Lyanna during the highlighted events?

Swearing vengeance isn't only done when someone has died... Swearing to kill someone for raping the woman you love, is equally possible.

As to why didn't Ned/Robert/Brandon/Rickard ask Characters A/B/C etc. about Lyanna's whereabouts... Who says they didn't? We have so little info about Ned's interactions with anyone during and after the Sack, or about Brandon's arrest, and we know even less about Rickards arrival in KL. Robert seems to have been blinded by hate, when facing Rhaegar, and we have absolutely no idea whether or not Jaime and Barristan even knew anything about Lyanna's whereabouts, nor do we know who told who what during those times they faced each other.

I don't really see the point you are trying to make? Perhaps I missed something, but could you explain what you are trying to say here?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We can both doubt. As Jon Arryn and his motives and character are already dead and buried as the novels begin. We do not know details of the rebellions origin, nor how long it had been planned. But we do know certain nobles had southron ambitions, we know the realm was a tinderbox, and we know the marriage pacts predated the rebellion, as Brandon was already betrothed to Cat, and Jon to Lysa, long before Aerys began demanding heads.

Jon Arryn and Lysa were only betrothed after the Battle of Bells, definitly after Aerys had started to demand heads.