The Book of the New Sun First Read and Re-read project [spoilers]

[matt b]

Severian says that if he has a sister, she's a witch. We meet a witch named Ava, which sounds like a reasonable shortening of Severa to me.

re:Triskele, I go back and forth on that point. Lately I question whether he was ever really existed at all.

[Darth Richard II]

I've never had problems reading about un likeable unsympathetic characters. I realize this is an unusual thing with readers. Hell, I think you just hit the nail on the read why some people just can't get into Wolfe. A lot of his characters are giant shitbags.

I think there is a plot reason he's so inconsistent though.

[Iskaral Pust]

1 hour ago, matt b said:

Severian says that if he has a sister, she's a witch. We meet a witch named Ava, which sounds like a reasonable shortening of Severa to me.

A witch is the default for an orphan girl.  I didn't read "she would be a witch" as an absolute statement that she is a witch (he does not know her at this point). 

[matt b]

30 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

A witch is the default for an orphan girl.  I didn't read "she would be a witch" as an absolute statement that she is a witch (he does not know her at this point). 

It's a very absolute statement. Whether he knows her or not is irrelevant, girls born to those in captivity in the Matachin Tower become witches, boys become torturers. As Severian is a torturer, any hypothetical twin sister would have to be a witch. 

[Darth Richard II]

I think Borski has something about the sister in his book, which people either tend to agree with completely or find to be heresy. I uh, can;t remember much about it. I should go dig it out.

[Jo498]

As far as I remember there is no sister mentioned when Severian's parentage is revealed at the end, so this seems speculation. And it's certainly not the girl in the Atrium of Time.

Spoiler

I just read that in the sequel "Urth of the new sun" it is told that he later marries Valeria, the girl from the Atrium

I also suspected that Triskele was resurrected but there are also reasons (revealed later in book 4) to assume that the dog never was what it appeared to be.

Traditional sexism allows (or expects) a hero on a quest to sleep around (within reason). (Recall that Ulysses who is in the end celebrated as "faithfully" returning to Penelope not only slept but lived with Circe and Calypso for an extended period of time... most of his "travels", I think about 7 years is spent with Calypso on her island.)

But I think the only clear (and strange) unfaithfulness with respect to Dorcas (and we had his above) is with Jolenta (and this seems more about her than about him). With Cyriaca he has basically already left Dorcas (although this was maybe not completely clear for the reader) and this is even more obvious later with the girl of the Lake people (end of Book 3). If I am not completely mistaken he never did more than kissing with Agia (and this was before he met or paired up with Dorcas). So maybe we should not be too puritan with a ca. 18-19-year-old let loose for the first time...

 

[matt b]

4 hours ago, Jo498 said:

As far as I remember there is no sister mentioned when Severian's parentage is revealed at the end, so this seems speculation.

Wolfe is rarely ever as direct as he is when he reveals Severian's parentage. Most everything is speculation, very little is ever directly and literally confirmed. So when you have things that are, like the how children come to the Witches and Matachin Towers, and combine that with the constant reminder of the Severian/Severa twin name connection, it's probably a good rabbit hole to jump down. In my experience with Wolfe, anyway.

[Jo498]

O.k. but this goes both ways. One could also argue that because the parentage is cleared up more thoroughly than almost anything else, a sister would have been mentioned. It does not seem to matter for the narrative, I believe.

[matt b]

6 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

O.k. but this goes both ways. One could also argue that because the parentage is cleared up more thoroughly than almost anything else, a sister would have been mentioned.

Not really though. Ouen didn't even know Catherine was pregnant at all, so he would have no clue. And he's who we get the confirmation from. When Wolfe mentions something more than once, there's usually a reason, and he definitely brings up the Severian/Severa twin names enough to make you go, "hmmmm."

[Wilbur]

On 4/26/2016 at 3:28 PM, Darth Richard II said:

I've never had problems reading about un likeable unsympathetic characters. I realize this is an unusual thing with readers. Hell, I think you just hit the nail on the read why some people just can't get into Wolfe. A lot of his characters are giant shitbags.

I think there is a plot reason he's so inconsistent though.

I am curious as the plot reason for his inconsistency - would you elaborate a little bit on that subject?

Like you, I don't mind unsympathetic characters.  The struggle for me with Wolfe is the meandering stories and seemingly irrelevant ornamentation that he uses that (for me) detract from my enjoyment of the story.

[Darth Richard II]

Well, its been a while but

Spoiler

At the end don't all the previous Autrachs memories get shoved into his head? And there is some sort of weird time loop going on where things can turn out differently. I always assumed some of the inconsistencies had to do with his fucked up memories and different paths of the loop

.

[Wilbur]

On 4/29/2016 at 7:01 PM, Darth Richard II said:

Well, its been a while but

  Hide contents

At the end don't all the previous Autrachs memories get shoved into his head? And there is some sort of weird time loop going on where things can turn out differently. I always assumed some of the inconsistencies had to do with his fucked up memories and different paths of the loop

.

My reading of the character is that he ought to be able to tell a straight story of his own life despite some of the mental renovations, and if he is telling it straight, he lacks a consistent moral code.

 

Come on Fragile Bird, we need you!  Just a few chapters...

[Darth Richard II]

Well, he lies a lot. Hence the unreliable narrator thing.

[Iskaral Pust]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well, he lies a lot. Hence the unreliable narrator thing.

Why does he lie within a single document like this?  I can accept an unreliable narrator who uses consistent distortions to appear better, or one who is inconsistent over time.  But Severian is writing this entire document within the span of a few days, so his blatant inconsistencies, e.g. whether he had coitus with Thecla, are harder to justify. 

[Darth Richard II]

Well, for reasons I said in the spoiler above, I don;t think hes quite sane. But it has been a long time since I read it proper.

Kick start my brain, who are the cacogens again?

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well, for reasons I said in the spoiler above, I don;t think hes quite sane. But it has been a long time since I read it proper.

Kick start my brain, who are the cacogens again?

Aliens, possibly intergalactic derivations of the original human stem (the name suggests 'bad/chaotic lineage/bloodline', suggesting they have differentiated significantly from an original lineage). Feared on Urth, appear to be hideous under their masks at Dr Talos' play where some attend, but in their meetings with Severian appear wise and graceful.

[Jo498]

The positive name for the aliens is "hierodules" (holy servants). There is an extended meeting with them at the end of Book 3 and more explanations in book 4.

Spoiler

They seem to be associated with but not identical to the more ancient and powerful alien race that causes the "weak sun" to put mankind on probation. Some humans (the former Autarch and also Severian, no clue if this is true for whatever rulers the Ascians or possible empires on the other continents have) can be called up to them for some test and if they go (they do not have to but in this case the weak sun will continue) and pass the test, the sun regains its strength. The former autarch failed (and therefore was made a eunuch which seems the punishment). Supposedly in the "fifth" volume Urth of the New Sun this testing (and passing) of Severian is described. Severian basically writes the book of the New Sun as a memoir before he goes to try that test.

 

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

Yup, Urth of the New Sun has a lot more exposition on cacogens/hierodules, plus lots of other things.

[Iskaral Pust]

Although the book offers the translation of "holy servant" for hierodule, a more literal historical translation is a slave or prostitute dedicated to serve a temple, which is a slightly darker interpretation. 

[Jo498]

It might be that those historically called hierodules were (often or also) temple prostitutes but the *literal* translation is simply holy servant or holy slave or servant of the holy. Cf. the name Theodul(os) that means servant of god.