The Book of the New Sun First Read and Re-read project [spoilers]

[Jo498]

I am afraid this is going too far ahead and will be very spoilery but in my impression, Severian is still "master of his mind" most of the time.

Spoiler

There are a few scenes when "Thecla" seems to take over (and we could also assume that some of the stories Severian re-tells he does not simply remember from Thecla but remembers AS Thecla). I think Severian should go mad after absorbing the dozens or more personalities the old Autarch had, but this apparently is not the case. As for the unreliability of Severian, this is somewhat paradox: With the absorption of Thecla and all personalities/memories contained in the old Autarch's brain he should know a lot more about many things than the poorly educated torture's apprentice of Vol.1. So it does not really explain his lack of reliability.

As for Dr Talos and Baldanders (spoiler to the end of Vol.3)

Spoiler

They are an almost exact inversion of the Dr Frankenstein trope: Dr Talos is an android built by Baldanders. I never really understood what Baldanders is supposed to be, but he does not seem to be related to the giant mermaids. My impression is that he is huge because he experimented (quite successfully) on himself, maybe with some help of the (alien) "hierodules". (Although at the end of Vol.3 Baldanders is clearly the bad guy whereas the hierodules seem mostly benevolent.)

 

[matt b]

7 hours ago, BookWyrm2 said:

Anyways I'm now thinking about the alzabo ceremony that Master Ultan was discussing with Severian way earlier on in the book.

In the hopes that there are people better acquainted with Catholicism than I: Is this not reminiscent at all of the "eating of the body of Christ"?

Very much so.

 

6 hours ago, Jo498 said:

in my impression, Severian is still "master of his mind" most of the time

One thing to note is a literal definition of the word "autarch" is "self rule" which describes what Severian and his predecessors do pretty well, I think.

[Fragile Bird]

I am not looking at far-in-advance spoilers! <shuts eyes>

[Wilbur]

7 hours ago, Jo498 said:

I am afraid this is going too far ahead and will be very spoilery but in my impression, Severian is still "master of his mind" most of the time.

  Hide contents

There are a few scenes when "Thecla" seems to take over (and we could also assume that some of the stories Severian re-tells he does not simply remember from Thecla but remembers AS Thecla). I think Severian should go mad after absorbing the dozens or more personalities the old Autarch had, but this apparently is not the case. As for the unreliability of Severian, this is somewhat paradox: With the absorption of Thecla and all personalities/memories contained in the old Autarch's brain he should know a lot more about many things than the poorly educated torture's apprentice of Vol.1. So it does not really explain his lack of reliability.

 

The problem I still have with this is the Severian makes the flat assertion in the early stages of the first book that he has perfect recall.  In my mind, this leads me to believe that many portions of his story must include lies, or at least downright obfuscations.

If the narrator was truthful throughout the books, and if the narrator wasn't insane, and if the narrator was ethical, the level of inconsistency wouldn't be so high, because the narrator would synthesize all points of view and all memories to present a single, accurate narrative.

But instead, we get a lot of "yeah but no but", like the narrator is channeling Little Britain's Vicky.

[Iskaral Pust]

I enjoy the advance spoilers.  It gives me the benefit of approaching this almost like a reread.  Keep them coming.  FB can wrestle with temptation, which is very appropriate for this Catholicism-infused tale.

We saw earlier examples of callous violence and hints of sexual assault by Severian, but now he pretty clearly rapes Jolenta.  His unconcerned POV of the actions diminishes the shock/shame/indignation of all these events but the reader can see through his POV.

[Jo498]

1 hour ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I enjoy the advance spoilers.  It gives me the benefit of approaching this almost like a reread.  Keep them coming.  FB can wrestle with temptation, which is very appropriate for this Catholicism-infused tale.

We saw earlier examples of callous violence and hints of sexual assault by Severian, but now he pretty clearly rapes Jolenta.  His unconcerned POV of the actions diminishes the shock/shame/indignation of all these events but the reader can see through his POV.

Obviously you enjoy them so much you do not use spoiler tags...

I disagree with the characterization of Severian and Jolenta in the boat. She does not seem completely conscious but in this setting she has consented before by entering the "pleasure boat" with him being proud of her erotic irrestibility. Please do not take this as my personal stance as far as consent goes! I do not think that today we should have sex with passed out drunks but in the setting of the story the consent by entering the intimate situation in the boat (and the boasting of her attractiveness) seems fairly obvious to me.

[Jo498]

3 hours ago, Wilbur said:

The problem I still have with this is the Severian makes the flat assertion in the early stages of the first book that he has perfect recall.  In my mind, this leads me to believe that many portions of his story must include lies, or at least downright obfuscations.

If the narrator was truthful throughout the books, and if the narrator wasn't insane, and if the narrator was ethical, the level of inconsistency wouldn't be so high, because the narrator would synthesize all points of view and all memories to present a single, accurate narrative.

Already very early he does not only remark that he has perfect recall but also that he sometimes thinks he will become mad. I think Severian really was fooled about Jolenta for a long time. Why shouldn't he? He had had a few busy days and almost forgotten Talos&Baldanders, not to speak of the waitress. They could easily have picked up another woman during those 2-3 days. The main obfuscation I am aware of is the relationship with Thecla during her imprisonment. What else do you have in mind?

I read all the "dream-like" sequences, unless explicitly marked as dreams, as memories where Severian himself is not quite sure (or at least was at the time) whether he was dreaming/hallucinating or not. E.g. when nearly drowning at the beginning of the book, he is really uncertain whether he had a vision/hallucination or really encountered a giant mermaid that saved him.

Spoiler

Even if it later seems that the merpeople are real (although we never learn whether the ominous Abaia does exist) Severian could not know at the beginning. It would be both spoiling the later narrative as well as the power of the drowning situation if (as later narrator) he had inserted that he later learned that he must have been saved by a giant mermaid.

 

[matt b]

It actually mentions in that scene that there's only one person Jolenta would sleep with willingly and that's Dr. Talos. So the lack of consent, or rather, Severian's knowledge of the lack of consent is pretty clear.  Additionally, Severian recalls the event in Urth and definitely uses the word rape.

[Iskaral Pust]

Jo:  I don't think I'm spoiling because I only reveal what I'm reading as I read it, and I think I'm pretty much on pace with the group here.  FB is posting chapter summaries with a lag. 

Anyone can let me know if they want me to use spoiler tags or hold off on posting thoughts until the chapter summaries have reached that point. 

[Iskaral Pust]

I like how the book so consistently refers to the horizon dropping below the sun for dawn or crawling above the sun for sunset.  They've lost the geocentric references to the sun rising, setting or moving across our sky.  

[Iskaral Pust]

I've finished book 2 now.  It stands out that there were two very long stories-within-story: the mutated version of Theseus slaying Minotaur in the maze, and Dr. Talos' play.  I think the latter is supposed to have a more direct analogy for the backdrop of this story, but I'm looking forward to hearing interpretation and discussion here. 

[Darth Richard II]

With regards to the sea monsters, I'm beginning to suspect Wolfe just really likes sea monsters, after just finishing book one of short sun for the first time. (Man, I want to reread it already and I haven't even started book 2 :P)

 

[Wilbur]

1 hour ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I've finished book 2 now.  It stands out that there were two very long stories-within-story: the mutated version of Theseus slaying Minotaur in the maze, and Dr. Talos' play.  I think the latter is supposed to have a more direct analogy for the backdrop of this story, but I'm looking forward to hearing interpretation and discussion here. 

I want to hear other folks' opinions on the mutated Theseus story for sure.

[BookWyrm2]

4 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I want to hear other folks' opinions on the mutated Theseus story for sure.

Note the similarity in the words "Theseus" and "thesis" - other people (that is, I only realized it after hearing this from someone else) have realized there's a pun somewhere in that story 

Spoiler

Notably, whoever wrote that story at some point was drawing from the ancient Greek myth, and somehow erroneously mistook Theseus for the word thesis which is perhaps why the hero was thought up by a student.

Any really big takeaways from that story still sort of elude me though (and I just finished reading that chapter, still nothing really).

[Jo498]

I would never have spotted the possibility of a pun (because I (mentally) pronounce Theseus in German fashion like "Tay-soys") but it is an interesting possibility. I have the impression that Wolfe both wants to give examples how myths could change in a time that is supposed to be far longer than the 3000 years (at most) between today and the Theseus myth. So several things get mixed up. The maze on an island becomes a maze of islands etc. As for an elucidation of the giant mermaids/sea monsters it seems a red herring.

Spoiler

The sea monsters seem a red herring altogether, they are real but even at the end of vol.4 I do not understand if they really are a threat.

There are more stories, even more loosely connected to the main narrative in book 4, one of them is a mix of some fairy tale tropes (I could not identify more precisely) and the first Mowgli story (adopted by the wolves and the wolves defending their naked cub against the tiger) in the Jungle Book.

As for the Severian - Jolenta scene, I still beg to differ. It's true that it is "kinky" and it is claimed that the only man Jolenta would yield to *completely* willingly was Dr Talos. But their talk before they enter the boat sounds to me as if Jolenta clearly tries to seduce Severian. She is in a grotesque situation being sexually so attractive that even women become "lesbian" but she cannot or will not yield to any advances. Still, she seems to want to (Severian writes something that the desires to be desired) and I have the distinct impression that she provokes the situation because she cannot yield willingly but somehow wants anyway. (Sorry, if that sounds like an age-old excuse for date rape but that's exactly how the situation appears to me in the book.) Of course, it may be that Severian describes it in that victim blaming fashion: she made him an "algophilist" which means pain-lover, and old term for sadomasochism, but seems to mean mainly sadist here). Note that supposedly the Guild took pains to avoid raising their apprentices as sadists...

[UtherDoul]

Crawls out of lurkdom. 

I alas don't have the books with me at the moment but this thread is very neat, so I hope it's okay if I occasionally contribute with what I remember?

3 hours ago, Jo498 said:

I would never have spotted the possibility of a pun (because I (mentally) pronounce Theseus in German fashion like "Tay-soys") but it is an interesting possibility. I have the impression that Wolfe both wants to give examples how myths could change in a time that is supposed to be far longer than the 3000 years (at most) between today and the Theseus myth. So several things get mixed up. The maze on an island becomes a maze of islands etc. As for an elucidation of the giant mermaids/sea monsters it seems a red herring.

 

 

 

Apparently, and I would have never gotten this on my own because I know nothing of American history, the other pun is that the Minotaur got confused with the USS Monitor.  Which would make the Land of the Virgins both a nod to the original myth but also Virginia. 

3 hours ago, Jo498 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The sea monsters seem a red herring altogether, they are real but even at the end of vol.4 I do not understand if they really are a threat.

There are more stories, even more loosely connected to the main narrative in book 4, one of them is a mix of some fairy tale tropes (I could not identify more precisely) and the first Mowgli story (adopted by the wolves and the wolves defending their naked cub against the tiger) in the Jungle Book.

 

Spoiler

Always thought, regarding the Mowgli story, that the other crossover element, so to speak, was clearly the story of Romolus and Remus. 

 

3 hours ago, Jo498 said:

 

As for the Severian - Jolenta scene, I still beg to differ. It's true that it is "kinky" and it is claimed that the only man Jolenta would yield to *completely* willingly was Dr Talos. But their talk before they enter the boat sounds to me as if Jolenta clearly tries to seduce Severian. She is in a grotesque situation being sexually so attractive that even women become "lesbian" but she cannot or will not yield to any advances. Still, she seems to want to (Severian writes something that the desires to be desired) and I have the distinct impression that she provokes the situation because she cannot yield willingly but somehow wants anyway. (Sorry, if that sounds like an age-old excuse for date rape but that's exactly how the situation appears to me in the book.) Of course, it may be that Severian describes it in that victim blaming fashion: she made him an "algophilist" which means pain-lover, and old term for sadomasochism, but seems to mean mainly sadist here). Note that supposedly the Guild took pains to avoid raising their apprentices as sadists...

 

That's essentially how Severian himself sees the situation when reminiscing about it in Urth of the New Sun. He's candid enough to call it rape but partially exculpates himself by believing she was not completely unwilling. 

[Jo498]

I can't re-read the larger context with Jolenta in book 2 now and I am not at all sure what the point of the fling with Severian is. But one aspect seems that because Talos "made her" he is the only one she would grant "power", i.e. allow sexual intercourse whereas with everyone else she only produces desire that gives her power and the positive feeling of being desired but no "first order" desire for sex.

Spoiler

Another aspect might be that she became to some extent a hybrid or android by Talos' improvements (that might be the reason she cannot be cured by the Claw), so she feels some kind of attraction to Talos who is an android created by Baldanders. But she ignored/scorned Jonas who also is an android.

 

[matt b]

12 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I want to hear other folks' opinions on the mutated Theseus story for sure.

For me, I took a thematic point of view that stories endure. The meanings get lost or obscured over time but the stories stay essentially the same. This resonates throughout the whole book since Severian's story is essentially a mutated Jesus story.

Also, I think the villain of the story is meant to be a reference to Abaia/Erebus/Giant Sea Monsters.

I like the talk of puns, that's good stuff I never picked up on before.

[Wilbur]

5 hours ago, UtherDoul said:

Crawls out of lurkdom. ...Apparently, and I would have never gotten this on my own because I know nothing of American history, the other pun is that the Minotaur got confused with the USS Monitor.  Which would make the Land of the Virgins both a nod to the original myth but also Virginia. 

That is outstanding - I love it.

[Iskaral Pust]

Those puns are great.  Theseus/thesis is a little obscure but how did I miss monitor/Minotaur?  And I agree that the only direct bearing on Severian seems to be the reference to large aquatic antagonists and the persistence of story archetypes.  

I think Jonas' "love" rather than desire for Jolenta, and hers for Talos, is linked to her becoming at least part android.  And the references to her odd, bumpy style of walking seem to be more than just the chafing of fuller thighs.