The Book of the New Sun First Read and Re-read project [spoilers]

[Fragile Bird]

BookWyrm, thanks for the kind words!

Don't discount philosophy and symbolism, though.  Master Palaemon is also saying just raising the sword is easy, bringing it down to chop someone's head off is hard.  So far we have seen very matter-of-fact descriptions of torture from Severian, I suspect the people who get elevated to Master have deeper feelings.  Severian was allowed to have his relationship with Thecla, perhaps to round out his character, since Palaemon says he was the most brilliant student since Master Gurloes.  He just went further than expected.

ETA:  We are now past the halfway mark in the first book.  I expect we will take another week and a half to the end, then a few days off for discussion before getting into Book 2.

[Wilbur]

The dream of Abaia's brides seems to indicate that the seas will rise and submerge all the lands of Urth.  It is interesting to note that Severian dreams of underwater scenes, and further that when he is underwater, he has visions.  The author appears to relate being submerged to dream states in several instances of the book already reviewed and in parts to come.
(In addition, I draw your attention to the fact that Severian dreams an underwater dream while sleeping next to Baldander, a huge creature.)

In our world, a common contemporary concern is that global warming, spurred by the heat of the Sun trapped in our atmosphere, will melt the polar ice caps and cause the seas to rise.  In the world of Urth, the sun appears to be dying.  What, then, will drive this flooding of which Severian dreams?  Remember how early on he says that he has two obsessions.  "Two thoughts (that were nearly dreams) obsessed me...The first was that at some not-distant time, time itself would stop … the colored days that had so long been drawn forth like a chain of conjuror’s scarves come to an end, the sullen sun wink out at last."

Does anyone have an interpretation of the dream where Severian flies on the back of the ibis/hag before he plunges into the water?

I also am interested in the reference to the Cacogens that Fragile Bird noted earlier, where they "sometimes visit Urth from the farther stars."  Cacogens is a usage in breeding circles refering to individuals who need to be weeded out of the inheritance pool because their offspring will have undesirable traits, or at least be unable to carry forward desirable traits.  So this population of persons who are inherently undesirable hate and oppose the Torturers.  Does it follow that the Guild of Torturers pursues a type of eugenic strategy or serve a eugenic purpose in the society of Urth?

So, Dr. Talos: he seems like a perfectly amoral guy, doesn't he?  Casually attempting to loot corpses, stealing meals from inns, luring waitresses away from honest employment to become actresses, practicing cosmetic surgery; he doesn't strike me as a positive character at all.  And of course, he has the face of a fox.  In real life, people can't help how they look, and we should not judge people based upon their figures, but in books, now, that is a different story.

I thought the fact that even after he removes his mask, Agilus' ribbons still show would be significant, but I never recognized what it was, other than a signal that he "wears a mask" in the literary sense.  Anybody have an answer on this one?

I share the thoughts of Jo498 and Matt B on the identity and source of Dorcas as described in their spoiler tags.  Some things in these books do make a certain sense, and her origins are one of those things.  On the other hand, I recall a professor referring to the books as being like a "session of D&D, moderated by a RC priest, played while tweaked on peyote", so there is that, too.  Which seems appropriate, given that Ultan says, "We have books whose papers are matted of plants from which spring curious alkaloids, so that the reader, in turning their pages, is taken unaware by bizarre fantasies and chimeric dreams."

[BookWyrm2]

49 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Don't discount philosophy and symbolism, though. 

Oh by no means! I think the sciency-stuff is if anything, more likely easter-eggy than central to the experience (although again I do maintain that it could reveal new levels to explore).

As for some of the symbolism, I find that Terminus Est is beginning to make Severian appear somewhat like an inverse-Christ figure (not entirely surprising given Catholicism's large influence on Wolfe's writing in general): as penance for a sin/crime Severian bears this more-than-a-little crucifex-shaped sword on his back on his journey towards Thrax, from where he's to dole out punishment to other sinners/criminals. It's almost like he is to redeem himself through the crimes of others as opposed to bearing the crimes of others to redeem them.

I do think it's strange though that Master Palaemon would be so fond of Severian to give him a gift like Terminus Est.

36 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

The dream of Abaia's brides seems to indicate that the seas will rise and submerge all the lands of Urth.  It is interesting to note that Severian dreams of underwater scenes, and further that when he is underwater, he has visions.  The author appears to relate being submerged to dream states in several instances of the book already reviewed and in parts to come.
(In addition, I draw your attention to the fact that Severian dreams an underwater dream while sleeping next to Baldander, a huge creature.)

In our world, a common contemporary concern is that global warming, spurred by the heat of the Sun trapped in our atmosphere, will melt the polar ice caps and cause the seas to rise.  In the world of Urth, the sun appears to be dying.  What, then, will drive this flooding of which Severian dreams?  Remember how early on he says that he has two obsessions.  "Two thoughts (that were nearly dreams) obsessed me...The first was that at some not-distant time, time itself would stop … the colored days that had so long been drawn forth like a chain of conjuror’s scarves come to an end, the sullen sun wink out at last."

Although I don't really have an answer to this yet, I'd definitely keep an eye out for more biblical metaphors and symbolism: we all know "great floods" play crucial roles in many myths.

[Fragile Bird]

I'm a little hesitant here about floods.  The giant women under the sea say they are growing until they are large enough to mate with Abaia.  These ladies are damn big now, Severian is the size of a doll compared to them.  And Abaia is going to rise up and swallow the continents.

Going to good ole trusty Wikipedia, Abaia in Melanesian legend is a giant eel that lives at the bottom of a lake and protects the fish in the lake.  So if the fish are women, is Abaia some monstrously huge man or man-like monster who lives under the sea (something from outer space?), who will eventually rise up and destroy the continents? 

I mean, the women can't mate with water, after all.

There seem to be all kinds of creatures that came from elsewhere or have been created by science or something.  I haven't listed them, but you keep seeing names of mythical creatures.

[.H.]

44 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

The dream of Abaia's brides seems to indicate that the seas will rise and submerge all the lands of Urth.  It is interesting to note that Severian dreams of underwater scenes, and further that when he is underwater, he has visions.  The author appears to relate being submerged to dream states in several instances of the book already reviewed and in parts to come.
(In addition, I draw your attention to the fact that Severian dreams an underwater dream while sleeping next to Baldander, a huge creature.)

Well, I am not prepared to dive too deeply into this (pun slightly intended) because I am not currently on the re-read and it's been years since I first read it, but I wouldn't exactly sleep on the connection between dreams, the collective unconscious, and bodies of water.

I'm not at home and at liberty to break out my books, but for example, this reference in Jung's The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious.  I don't know if that is really what he was aiming at, but I have doubts this is simply a coincidence.

[Darth Richard II]

Hmmmmm

Spoiler

I always thought Dorcus was his grandmother, but it's been a while. They're definitely related.

 

[matt b]

You're spot on there, DR II.

[Wilbur]

26 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Hmmmmm

  Hide contents

I always thought Dorcus was his grandmother, but it's been a while. They're definitely related.

 

Whose?  Are you suggesting "Severian's" for the "his"?  Wow, I would not have picked that up at all.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh again it's not something I picked up, it was in one of the many articles I read.

[matt b]

It's made pretty obvious at the very end. For those of you that have already read the book the scene where Severian tracks down Ouen is pretty vital.

[Jo498]

What I spoilered above can be deduced from the chapters "Dorcas" and "Hildegrin". There is another hint in the chapter at the Tree-Inn, and rather early in book three in Thrax (they finally get there between books 2 and 3) Dorcas herself realizes what happened (I read this last night hours after I wrote the spoilered message above) and tells Severian. NOT yet what Darth Richard wrote, this revelation must be far later, as we do not know anything about Severian's background either; the only hints are that he looks upper class, like an armiger or even an exultant, taller and more handsome than average.

What I am wondering about now: As the scenes with Thecla are described (and also because of the warning of the Master and the suggestion to go to the brothel instead) I always thought that they never had sex (there is one scene when she starts undressing him but he leaves that to me seemed to show his rejection of her advances). But later on when Severian reflects about women he "loved" it looks clearly as if they had been intimate. Which is not only strange because a different impression was given before but also because one would think the Masters or fellow torturers would forbid it or at least comment (warnings or bawdy remarks) on it.

[Darth Richard II]

Severian lies about things a lot.

[matt b]

re: Severian & Thecla's relationship...that's one of the few points that Severian makes pretty explicit statements about in both directions. Keep your eyes open for more clues, they'll be forthcoming.

[Wilbur]

1 hour ago, matt b said:

re: Severian & Thecla's relationship...that's one of the few points that Severian makes pretty explicit statements about in both directions. Keep your eyes open for more clues, they'll be forthcoming.

When I read the books as they first came out, I though Severian was like Schroedinger's Horny Cat, because he did and did not become intimate with Thecla, depending on what chapter I was reading at the time.  Not having an understanding of the idea of an Unreliable Narrator at such a tender age, this confusion and the others like it strongly reduced my enjoyment of the books, particularly since I took his early statement about possessing a perfect memory at face value.

[BookWyrm2]

13 hours ago, Jo498 said:

What I spoilered above can be deduced from the chapters "Dorcas" and "Hildegrin". There is another hint in the chapter at the Tree-Inn, and rather early in book three in Thrax (they finally get there between books 2 and 3) Dorcas herself realizes what happened (I read this last night hours after I wrote the spoilered message above) and tells Severian. NOT yet what Darth Richard wrote, this revelation must be far later, as we do not know anything about Severian's background either; the only hints are that he looks upper class, like an armiger or even an exultant, taller and more handsome than average.

I'm trying to keep my eyes open for clues about that.

Spoiler

The first time I read these books was a long time ago and I don't think I realized that Dorcas was his grandmother. While Hildegrin says Dorcas has a "high-bred shape" I haven't noticed nearly the level of comments about her looking exultant-like as we've seen about Severian (note that I just finished chapter XXIV so there's probably quite a bit of things still forthcoming).

It seems like there's more to find out about Severian's heritage than just Dorcas, unless she does turn out to be an exultant.

Also, how exactly is it that people seem to carry physical/biological characteristics of their "class" i.e. the tallness of the exultants?

 

[Mavoras]

I have been following your discussion and enjoying the chapter synopses.

I have been enjoying listening to a song based on the Book of the New sun:

 

 

 

↵ Use original player

Terminus Est - Julia Ecklar - "filk" video

By eg2b

YouTube

• 360p

← Replay

X

i

 

 

Mavoras

 

 

[all swedes are racist]

14 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Severian lies about things a lot.

This. And also (at least something I took from the books) Severain at the end (i.e. the narrator) is very different from the Severian in the story. 

As an aside, I would like commend everyone for the commentary and analysis, especially FB for the summaries. Kick ass all around

[Fragile Bird]

6 hours ago, Mavoras said:

I have been following your discussion and enjoying the chapter synopses.

I have been enjoying listening to a song based on the Book of the New sun:

 

 

 

↵ Use original player

Terminus Est - Julia Ecklar - "filk" video

By eg2b

YouTube

• 360p

← Replay

X

i

 

 

Mavoras

 

 

First post!  Welcome to Westeros, Mavoras!  Have you been a lurker?  Feel free to post some more and post often!  Are you reading the book as well?

 

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah you should archive those summaries somewhere, they're kick ass.

 

Also, random aside, I find the more Gene Wolfe I read the more I notcied things right away, so if this is your first Wolfe, don;t feel bad if you're confused as all fuck. (This was my first Wolfe too, and man the first time I didn't get ANYTHING.)

[Fragile Bird]

I have been out gallivanting tonight, so didn't post summaries, but NCIS is on repeats here late at night so I will do a chapter. 

Chapter XVIII, The Destruction of the Altar

The city has woken up by the time Severian and the girl leave the rag shop.  Severian sees a flier go by, likely that of the officer who challenged him to the duel, who the brother said was a hipparch of the Septentrion Guard.

Septentrion is a reference to the north, used on old maps.  I am surprised GRRM has not used it.  From Wikipedia, FYI:

Quote

 

"Septentrional" is more or less synonymous with the term "boreal". The constellation Ursa Major, containing the Big Dipper, or Plough, dominates the skies of the North. There does not appear to be a comparable term linking the regions of the South with some prominent astral feature of the Southern sky. The usual antonym for septentrional is the term meridional, which refers to the noonday sun, not to a celestial feature in the Southern sky.

The novelist Gene Wolfe used the word septentrional in The Book of the New Sun, as the name of a praetorian guard, who are especially close to the ruler, hence are part of the palace inner-circle; such stars are close to the polar star.

 

The man and the woman from the shop are named Agilus (Latin, quick and nimble) and Agia (the Greek word for saint).

Severian and Agia need to go to the Botanical Gardens to get an avern (from the Latin, associated with poison death and the underworld).  The flower opens at night, so the duel won't be until late in the day.  Agia tells him they can take a cab (a fiacre) because he won't have to worry about his money, since he will die in the duel.

In the book of legends Severian took from Thecla's cell, there's a story about an angel, struck by an arrow and dying, when she encounters Gabriel himself.  He tells her not to be silly, she can't die, and she says, yes we can.  Gabriel is surprised by the news, and says he wouldn't have taken the risks he has taken if he knew he could die.  Severian mentions the story might even be about one of the winged women warriors said to serve the Autarch [note - since he's Autarch while writing this, he should know if there are winged women warriors serving him, shouldn't he?]

Agia realizes he really is a torturer, and not a young armiger.  She thinks he has the face of someone who stands to inherit two palatinates (territory rules by a palatine) and an isle somewhere, and that deep down he really doesn't fear death.  Does she see him as an exhultant?

As they are being driven to the Gardens, Agia, quite the trouble maker, leans over to a fiacre that pulls up beside them and challenges them to a race to the Gardens, for the wager of a chrisos.  The passenger turns out to be Sieur Racho, who Severian met when he went to the archives to get the books for Thecla.  Agia says she knows the driver and is sure they can beat the other cab, and they go wildy chasing through the streets of the city, crashing through hedges and knocking over property.  Severian at one point grabs Agia, and while she says she hates men who grab her, she's glad he did it and covers him with kisses.  ***Severian notes he had clasped women before, Thecla often, and hired bodies in the town.  Yet, if you recall, he said he only visited the bordello once and told Roche to pocket the money thereafter.  Severian caught in a lie?

Their ride ends when they crash through some shrubbery and into a blue lit altar, as large as a cottage.  Severian had been holding Terminus Est, and has dropped it somewhere.  One of the onegars that was pulling the cab (it seems to be a creature from somewhere else, not Urth) is dead and Agia tells him he will therefore have to carry her.  Agia wants to urgently leave, because the altar was surrounded by straw which is now on fire.  The place is the Cathedral of the Pelerines (actually means a cape), also know as the Cathedral of the Claw.  The Pelerines are the priestesses of the Cathedral.

They run into the priestesses, who stop them and question them.  They have Terminus Est and return it to Severian.  They ask if they have taken something of value from the altar, and Severian says no, he saw jewels imbedded in the splintered wood of the altar but he left them there.  The Chatelaine of the Cathedral takes Severian by his hands and stares into his eyes, and says he is telling the truth.  Guards pull up Agia's dress to see if she has something hidden there, but there isn't.

"I think this the day foretold", says the Chatelaine.

The missing item seems to be The Claw, but apparently it can vanish at will, though it hasn't in living memory, and it's not up to the priestesses to stop it.

Agia and Severian leave the Cathedral.

The Claw sort of sounds like the Sword of Gryffindor, which I don't think vanished at will but did reappear when needed.