Where are these awesome sand snakes in the books?

[Mithras]

Isn't Doran mad at them for killing Elia?

Oberyn was mad at them but he was also mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia. We do not know how much Doran is mad at the Lannisters. In fact, every person responsible for the deaths of Elia and her kids are dead. Maybe he will say that it is enough for him and grab the chance to improve his House by making Trystane the king consort to Myrcella, who seems like a decent girl.

[Winter's Knight]

Thirded, nice read.

Fourthed.

[Lovely Lyanna]

"And those are the Sand Snakes. Like I said, they’re not brilliant, but they’re colourful,

I totally agree with this line. My brother who is unsullied is the only person I know that actually likes the Sand Snakes on the show. He just gets a kick out of them. Of course we are from the south and we do love colorful people down here. Everybody always hides their crazy relatives, but in the south, we dress them up and set them on the front porch. I think he kind of looks at them as just crazy, colorful relatives.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oberyn was mad at them but he was also mad at Rhaegar for abandoning Elia. We do not know how much Doran is mad at the Lannisters. In fact, every person responsible for the deaths of Elia and her kids are dead. Maybe he will say that it is enough for him and grab the chance to improve his House by making Trystane the king consort to Myrcella, who seems like a decent girl.

Yes, for the show could work. Still, Oberyn died trying to go against the Lannisters and Doran now goes and allies them?

[Saturno]

Sand Snakes in the books were one-sided characters, defined by a primary characteristic, but the show did not even gave them a single individual characteristic, they just have 1 weapon each and we're expected to find them interesting. Is ridiculous.

And as bad as BookSnakes may be, at least they aren't complete idiots like in the show. As I pointed in other topic, what exactly was their plan? To achieve war by killing Myrcella, but if possible they would take Myrcella to Ellaria for her to do the dirty job, or to torture her, or to send her to Cersei "one finger at the time", but basically the idea was to kill Myrcella to provoke King's Landing. With this in mind, and with the info that they knew Jaime and Bronn were coming, the best they could do was to try to kidnapp Myrcella? Why didn't they killed Myrcella right when they got the chance? It was exactly what Darkstar did in the books, because if the main purpose is to initiate a war, even if everything else fails and they are caught by Doran's men, a single stroke is enough to bring the damn war!

But they could not, because the plot depends on Myrcella surviving. So the characters act like idiots. This is bad writing, bad storytelling.

[Westerosi Coast Gangster]

I said it last episode that these sand snakes are terribly cast and Ellaria playing the vengeful lover is horrible. They are my least favorite part of this show. When I said it last episode ppl were like give them more than min. I did and I still hate them.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sand Snakes in the books were one-sided characters, defined by a primary characteristic, but the show did not even gave them a single individual characteristic, they just have 1 weapon each and we're expected to find them interesting. Is ridiculous.

And as bad as BookSnakes may be, at least they aren't complete idiots like in the show. As I pointed in other topic, what exactly was their plan? To achieve war by killing Myrcella, but if possible they would take Myrcella to Ellaria for her to do the dirty job, or to torture her, or to send her to Cersei "one finger at the time", but basically the idea was to kill Myrcella to provoke King's Landing. With this in mind, and with the info that they knew Jaime and Bronn were coming, the best they could do was to try to kidnapp Myrcella? Why didn't they killed Myrcella right when they got the chance? It was exactly what Darkstar did in the books, because if the main purpose is to initiate a war, even if everything else fails and they are caught by Doran's men, a single stroke is enough to bring the damn war!

But they could not, because the plot depends on Myrcella surviving. So the characters act like idiots. This is bad writing, bad storytelling.

The show made Darkstar sound smart!

[Saturno]

IMO the sand snakes were pointless in the book. They were just filler. GRRM created them for the same reason he creates a lot of characters. He is procrastinating. I have said this over and over. It is easy to create characters, but it is difficult to make them actually do anything.

The idea of them is fine, but the sand snakes were just a waste of time in the books, as they are in the show. They remind me of a lot of characters that Milch created for Deadwood. He created tons of characters that were truly intriguing, but they ended up doing nothing and take time away from the main plot lines. I watched John from Cincinnati by Milch and he did the exact same thing there. Every episode was going nowhere, but yet new characters were being added. I remember even after the show was canceled, he was adding characters in the last episode. It is just a form of procrastination.

That is why I do not think that GRRM will be able to deliver a satisfying ending. I just do not think he can stop himself from just creating characters rather than writing an actual story.

In the books they are minor characters, so they work more as scenery and environment than as proper characters. This is not bad, quite the contrary. The fact that GRR Martin makes us know the name of every one of the seven Kingsguards, even if half of them is of no importance to the story whatsoever, is a way of enriching the setting, make it more colorful, more believable, more real, more deep. Look how bland the show is in this matter, with only 3 Kingsguard named and described (others are just named). The Sand Snakes are in the books also a trace of Oberyn's presence, a way to know more about him, his past, his reasons, and to better understand him even after his death. Also they represent different aspects of Dorne through archetypes, being ethnic, cultural and even moral. So I think the Sand Snakes from the books help us to better understand Dorne and the dornish arc, being more a narrative tool than real characters, but that's the purpose of minor characters after all.

But in the show what the Sand Snakes represent? Juvenile incompetence? Irrational wrath? Stupidity? 3 types of weapons? The only thing that I think they can represent that is not necessarily bad is Dorne's culture of having warrior women, which is nice. But is not enough to justify their presence in the show. Specially after last episode which should be their climax.

[VladimirDulud]

it's hard to write for three different characters and make them each sound unique and distinct and make them interesting as well especially if they're all in one scene.

since the show does simplification so well, cutting out the fat from large story arcs, i'm surprised they kept this trio from the books. it seems what would have been smart to do is to make the sand snakes a singular character instead of a Trio and give Ellaria an expanded, more active role in the goings on.

I would have replaced Keisha Castle Hughes with Stephanie Leonidas (MIRRORMASK) as Obara, as she has the right look and is a strong performer able to convey fragility and strength; the main qualities of all the three sand snakes anyway; and i would have cut out Tyene, cut out Nymeria.

i understand the trio have a cool look but it's too much for a show that is only 10 episodes a season. One sand snake who embodies all the qualities of the characters in the books and expanding Ellaria's character would have been a solution.

At the moment we have such little time to spend on character development that all new characters introduced are really losing out. Oberyn was an example where the character packed a lot of punch and made a big splash and a big exit; but imagine if they had split him into 3 different roles with not all having enough lines of dialogue.

[Tadco26]

Book Sand Snakes are completely minor side characters on par with Weese, Chet, Darkstar, or Brown Ben Plumm, or a dozen other minor characters that the show has cut. For some reason they decided to make them the focus of Dorne instead. They aren't particularly well developed in the books, but they are a tiny part of two huge books, which D&D have decided to consolidate into one season and in the process decided that the Sand Snakes were critical to their story, and the heirs to Dorne were not.

I'm not a huge fan of Dorne in the books either, but if this is the best replacement they can come up with, then cut Dorne completely or reduce it to the amount of time Stannis had with the Iron Bank. As much stuff as they are cutting or completely rewriting, to come up with this story line is a waste of precious screen time.

[protar]

What a cop out.

Anyway, D&D get called Dumber and Dumber for the Sand Snakes yet no one is going "George Raging Retard Martin" for doing the same exact thing.

The vitrol is ridiculous and misleading.

Yes, you really would. The show Snakes are mocked as Charlie's Angels wannabes and Fox Force Five but it's just as bad in the books.

How are the Sandsnakes just as bad in the books? No one is saying they are brilliant literary creations, but nothing about them is as absurd as what we saw in this week's episode. The Sandsnakes have yet to really do anything in the books. You can't really judge them as characters yet. In the show the Sandsnakes certainly did something last sunday and it deserved a lot of judgement indeed.

[Saturno]

Book Sand Snakes are completely minor side characters on par with Weese, Chet, Darkstar, or Brown Ben Plumm, or a dozen other minor characters that the show has cut. For some reason they decided to make them the focus of Dorne instead. They aren't particularly well developed in the books, but they are a tiny part of two huge books, which D&D have decided to consolidate into one season and in the process decided that the Sand Snakes were critical to their story, and the heirs to Dorne were not.

I'm not a huge fan of Dorne in the books either, but if this is the best replacement they can come up with, then cut Dorne completely or reduce it to the amount of time Stannis had with the Iron Bank. As much stuff as they are cutting or completely rewriting, to come up with this story line is a waste of precious screen time.

This. I am a fan of Dorne in the books but I agree completely with you.

[protar]

As others have said, The Cultural Vacuum essay is probably the best summation of the difference between the Sandsnakes on the book and the show and why the Show Sandsnakes are so much worse. The only point I disagree on is that I can see how this change could hypothetically streamline things. Not in this season, but in the next season. Arianne looks to be heading off to intersect with Aegon's story, who presumably will have his own large plotline which they are cutting out. The Sandsnakes on the other hand are headed to KL. They're linking up with a preexisting plot and a favourite plot line of D+Ds. So of course they're in.

But I really disagree with cutting out such huge swathes of the book. Why not cut out Ned or Cat? Why not cut out everything except those plots and characters relevant to the fight against the Others?

[Mithras]

Book Sand Snakes are completely minor side characters on par with Weese, Chet, Darkstar, or Brown Ben Plumm, or a dozen other minor characters that the show has cut. For some reason they decided to make them the focus of Dorne instead. They aren't particularly well developed in the books, but they are a tiny part of two huge books, which D&D have decided to consolidate into one season and in the process decided that the Sand Snakes were critical to their story, and the heirs to Dorne were not.

I'm not a huge fan of Dorne in the books either, but if this is the best replacement they can come up with, then cut Dorne completely or reduce it to the amount of time Stannis had with the Iron Bank. As much stuff as they are cutting or completely rewriting, to come up with this story line is a waste of precious screen time.

After introducing Oberyn (which they had to), they could not hope to cut Dorne completely or even mostly, like they did with the Vale.

Yes, for the show could work. Still, Oberyn died trying to go against the Lannisters and Doran now goes and allies them?

Oberyn died trying to save a Lannister ;)

[MordredDayne]

Fourthed.

Fifthed or sixthed or seventhed. Julia Martell knows her stuff.

Honestly, I’ve always been a bit confused as to why the Sand Snakes get so much flak for being flat characters when these books are filled with characters that have the same level of development that people seem to love or at least don’t have a problem with . At first I was thinking about characters like Greatjon Umber and Strong Belwas, but the more I think of it, the more comparable I feel they are to Dany’s Bloodriders: Jhogo, Aggo, and Rakharo. After all, these are three characters who, much like the Sand Snakes are really defined by their fierceness and their choice of weapon (bow, whip, arakh) They don’t really have any distinguishable character traits outside of the general Dothraki traits. I suppose you could say that they’re unique in their decision to follow a woman leader, but I would be surprised if anyone could formulate a compelling argument as to how they aren’t flat characters.

I think a big part of the problem is that the Sand Snakes are introduced in the fourth book in a new storyline when a lot of the fans weren’t open to the idea of the story expanding anymore. I feel that, had it played out oppositely, had Dorne and the Sand Snakes been introduced in the first book and Dany and the Bloodriders in the fourth book, we would be hearing a lot of the same complaints about them.

And as for the TV show, I agree with a lot of the previous posters who say that the problem is that D&D decided to make them focal points of the Dorne story, but didn’t bother to flesh out their characters any. I feel that they’re actually better developed in the books, and that’s saying something. Imagine if they had decided to cut Dany for some crazy reason, but they kept the Bloodriders without giving them any more development than in the book. The result would be much the same.

[DemiNymph]

I like the Sand Snakes in the books. They were clearly meant to be the side characters, not the main characters in the Dorne storyline. I see them as equal to all the supporting characters of each storyline. For example, brothers of the nightswatch storyline with names and a few speaking lines like Pyp, Dolores Edd, Glenn. Or a few characters we see in Stannis's entourage, or Dany's storyline etc. Why blame GRRM for creating such characters, that's silly. Each storyline has its own main and supporting characters. In Dorne you have Doran and Arianne as the main characters and the rest are supporting. Just because people like the sandsnakes is no reason to shit on them to seem cool.

It's the show that made them laughable. The styling was bad. They producers can't even get the look right. Their accent bad. Their acting bad. Their dialogue bad. And the fight scene is terribly bad. The director is terrible. The motivations and reasons of the characters were so stupid and unreasonable that they became the villians. The writer is terrible too. Nothing is right about them in the show.

[Masha]

In the books, Sand Snakes had their unique personalities - one was Oberyn copy, another was acting like a sweet Septa, another etc. Here they ALL act like Oberyn wanna-be's with same personalities, similar clothes, and only difference is weapons. Thats why they look cartoonish and like fake Xena's.

Doesn't help that fight scene had really bad editing (artificially speed up action in order to make Sand Snakes fighting moves look better - at the same time ignoring that it creates a silly fast Bronn moves?)

[dooog]

Actually, let me just pull a quote from Julia Martell's essay, though I recommend reading the whole thing:

This^

The major problem with the show Snakes is that they're the centerpiece of the most ill thought out and poorly executed arc in the show. Quite literally NOTHING made sense in this week's episode. From the terrain to the clothing to the masterplans on both sides of snatching a princess in broad fucking daylight from a very public royal garden. I'd expect more intelligence and thought to be put into an episode of Spartacus.

[Primalsplit]

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs16/f/2007/154/7/d/The_Strawman_Fallacy_by_Elabeth.jpg

[JonisHenryTudor]

The sand snakes were cartoonish in the books, yes.

So, the expectation would be that the show would IMPROVE them, not make them worse, and even more cartoonish. That the show would do w/the snakes what they did with Daario, take away some of the more ridiculous elements of his description, tone it down, and make the visuals and personnas fit better with the rest of GOT.

Instead, we did get Zena+Charlies Angels and the bad dialogue and acting to match.

Yes Obara reminds me of Xena, are we sure they didn't overlay Xena onto the picture?

I pretty much agree.

I didn't like the Sandsnakes in the books.

I don't like the Sandsnakes in the show.

So for me, it's a wash.

Yes.

That whole scene reminds me of Prince Charles (Charles I) and Buckingham trying to break into the Spanish Infanta's chambers in Madrid and "steal her hand" during the Spanish Match controversy. Especially the quirkiness of the entire scene. It would have been fantastic if Jaime would have tried to wear a fake beard.