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hallam

Where are these awesome sand snakes in the books?

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The sand snakes were at least tolerable in the books, if not likable. They were also always in the background while Arianne did most of the action, while in the show they are not tolerable and are shoved down our throat.

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No you really wouldn't. There were other memorable characters that were cut yet they decided to keep some of the corniest characters from the books. Classic D&D

This. And they are made worse, more corny, more cartoonish in the show. So it's the worst of all possible outcomes.

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We critic them for what they are on the show! And on the show, they're awful!

That doesn't mean they're good on the books.

What a cop out.

Anyway, D&D get called Dumber and Dumber for the Sand Snakes yet no one is going "George Raging Retard Martin" for doing the same exact thing.

The vitrol is ridiculous and misleading.

No you really wouldn't.

Yes, you really would. The show Snakes are mocked as Charlie's Angels wannabes and Fox Force Five but it's just as bad in the books.

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IMO the sand snakes were pointless in the book. They were just filler. GRRM created them for the same reason he creates a lot of characters. He is procrastinating. I have said this over and over. It is easy to create characters, but it is difficult to make them actually do anything.

The idea of them is fine, but the sand snakes were just a waste of time in the books, as they are in the show. They remind me of a lot of characters that Milch created for Deadwood. He created tons of characters that were truly intriguing, but they ended up doing nothing and take time away from the main plot lines. I watched John from Cincinnati by Milch and he did the exact same thing there. Every episode was going nowhere, but yet new characters were being added. I remember even after the show was canceled, he was adding characters in the last episode. It is just a form of procrastination.

That is why I do not think that GRRM will be able to deliver a satisfying ending. I just do not think he can stop himself from just creating characters rather than writing an actual story.

GRRM is not just creating characters for no reason. As the story got bigger and the characters travelled further apart geographically he could no longer get them into the plots he had planned for them. So he split many of the main characters in to a numbers of different characters. If you look at the treatment GRRM first did on the story this is obvious. Some of Tyrion's plot goes to Roose, some of Cat's plot gets taken over by Meera, most of Jaime's plot goes to Cersei and LF, most probably Gendry takes on Jon's role in the Ayra love triangle. It isn't a case of creating characters for the hell of it. It is not that the don't have a purpose, it's that GRRM has too many purposes and plots to go round and he isn't prepared to teleport his characters to achieve a more streamlined story like D&D are.

Most likely the Sand Snakes, Arianne, Quentyn, Trystan and the queenmaker plot group were a far smaller group of people but they have expanded because GRRM need the Martells to be travelling and interfering in a lot of different places. This is also probably why D&D kept the Sand Snakes over the rest of the family, they will probably make a difference achieve something when they leave Dorne but Arianne and Quentyn ultimately don't.

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GRRM is not just creating characters for no reason. As the story got bigger and the characters travelled further apart geographically he could no longer get them into the plots he had planned for them. So he split many of the main characters in to a numbers of different characters. If you look at the treatment GRRM first did on the story this is obvious. Some of Tyrion's plot goes to Roose, some of Cat's plot gets taken over by Meera, most of Jaime's plot goes to Cersei and LF, most probably Gendry takes on Jon's role in the Ayra love triangle. It isn't a case of creating characters for the hell of it. It is not that the don't have a purpose, it's that GRRM has too many purposes and plots to go round and he isn't prepared to teleport his characters to achieve a more streamlined story like D&D are.

Most likely the Sand Snakes, Arianne, Quentyn, Trystan and the queenmaker plot group were a far smaller group of people but they have expanded because GRRM need the Martells to be travelling and interfering in a lot of different places. This is also probably why D&D kept the Sand Snakes over the rest of the family, they will probably make a difference achieve something when they leave Dorne but Arianne and Quentyn ultimately don't.

I hear you...but...did we really need 8 Sand Snakes, Ellaria and Arianne? That is a bit much.

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The Sand Snakes in the books are undeveloped side characters. They're not particularly interesting but that's why they're side characters and their story is really only just starting. At the moment, yes they are very two-dimensional but at least there is a discernible personality to each one.



In the show, throwing them all onscreen in one go in that moronic introductory scene was never a good idea and neither was making them such a focus of the story in Dorne if they were not going to be improved upon as characters. Replacing Arianne's story in Dorne meant they should have been made more interesting.



They've so far been used essentially as a plot device to legitimise Jaime's ridiculous 'rescue' mission. And they've been shown to be entirely willing to kill Myrcella alongside Ellaria. Nice!


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This. And they are made worse, more corny, more cartoonish in the show. So it's the worst of all possible outcomes.

It's quite a feat to make them even more cartoonish but kudos to them I guess :drunk:

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How could you guys say that? In the book, each sand snakes has her own personality, Obara is a brute force, Nymeria is a charm and has a political sense, she will sit on the small council, Tyene is the most dangerous of them all, but she has such a sweat and innocent appearance, you will not mistake one sand snake with another in the book


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GRRM is not just creating characters for no reason. As the story got bigger and the characters travelled further apart geographically he could no longer get them into the plots he had planned for them. So he split many of the main characters in to a numbers of different characters. If you look at the treatment GRRM first did on the story this is obvious. Some of Tyrion's plot goes to Roose, some of Cat's plot gets taken over by Meera, most of Jaime's plot goes to Cersei and LF, most probably Gendry takes on Jon's role in the Ayra love triangle. It isn't a case of creating characters for the hell of it. It is not that the don't have a purpose, it's that GRRM has too many purposes and plots to go round and he isn't prepared to teleport his characters to achieve a more streamlined story like D&D are.

Most likely the Sand Snakes, Arianne, Quentyn, Trystan and the queenmaker plot group were a far smaller group of people but they have expanded because GRRM need the Martells to be travelling and interfering in a lot of different places. This is also probably why D&D kept the Sand Snakes over the rest of the family, they will probably make a difference achieve something when they leave Dorne but Arianne and Quentyn ultimately don't.

Unless the crackpot theory that Quentyn is alive is true, then yes, he is, and he's giving them POVs as well. So, I don't buy this. I don't D&D a pass and I don't give GRRM a pass either. He lost control in the last two books, and it shows.

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Just read this: http://theculturalvacuum.tumblr.com/post/118407957349/apologizing-for-porne-their-fathers-daughters



It gets at who the Sand Snakes are in the books, how the show somehow manages to miss the point of these paper-thin archetypes, and how the main issue is that they were included when Dorne is Arianne's story.


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What a cop out.

Anyway, D&D get called Dumber and Dumber for the Sand Snakes yet no one is going "George Raging Retard Martin" for doing the same exact thing.

The vitrol is ridiculous and misleading.

Yes, you really would. The show Snakes are mocked as Charlie's Angels wannabes and Fox Force Five but it's just as bad in the books.

So, we cannot critic anything from the show if their counterpart on the books is not the pinnacle of perfection? Seems legit!

Are you really seeing any comment saying that Book!Sand Snakes are great characters?

But we're the ones stuck in our ways. Go figure.

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The Sand Snakes were meant to be plot devices for Arianne and Doran's development as allies. They are meant to represent "Dorne" as a force who wants revenge without the consequences, and Arianne is dragged into it, believing revenge for the sake of revenge is a good course of action.



She grows out of it.



We're not meant to cheer for them wanting to create chaos in Dorne and call for war. You might like Doran's actions or not, but we're not meant to cheer for the Snakes and their obvious dislike of Doran. Doran kept Dorne safe. They don't mind who gets killed. We should believe Arianne is becoming mature by rejecting her cousin's ways and becoming Doran's real daughter.



The show believes that their 'badass' attitude is something we should feel is the great thing ever because they don't mind about themes. The theme in Dorne is "revenge for the sake of revenge will hurt innocents". What happened to Myrcella is nothing compared what could have happened to Dorne if Doran and Oberyn had simply tried to declare war against the Throne in name of Elia.



Also, good as they are, they are kinda meant to play with Dorne's stereotypes. As soon as Nymeria sets foot in KL, many will say "oh, a woman who is so sexually open and fights with daggers? Typical Dorne". We know she's more than that, very much like her other sisters. Also Arianne, who is definitely not defined by her sexuality. The show took those stereotypes and tried to created a personality out of them, that's why they look cartoonish.


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They're terrible characters in the show and the books.

I hear you...but...did we really need 8 Sand Snakes, Ellaria and Arianne? That is a bit much.

This. I actually would've blended all three into one passably decent character.

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If D&D decided to cut JonCon/fAegon/Second Dance of Dragons (which seems likely), then there is no need for Arianne. But still, it seems that D&D will make Dorne enemy to Dany as in the books and that will probably be achieved by Trystane/Myrcella marriage. After the news of Hizdahr/Dany marriage comes, Doran will complain of best laid plans and decide to throw his lots with the Lannisters.



This is acceptable for the show purposes for me.


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Actually, let me just pull a quote from Julia Martell's essay, though I recommend reading the whole thing:

And those are the Sand Snakes. Like I said, they’re not brilliant, but they’re colourful, distinctive, and they serve a function: to be a sounding board and contrast to the two most important characters in the Dorne arc, Doran and Arianne. (In this chapter that I’ve discussed they serve this function for Doran, and in the aDwD chapter “The Watcher” they serve this function for Arianne, though in a subtler way.)

None of this is a problem, until you, for some reason, decide that you’re going to bring them forwards. And also strip them of any little development that they have. The Dorne Arc can exist without the Sand Snakes, you would have had to tweak things, but you could tell the same story without them. The Dorne Arc can’t exist without Arianne; it’s her story.

I’m still confused as to how casting three actors instead of casting one streamlined anything. And I’m even more confused as to what on earth they plan to do with these three jokes of characters. But I really just can’t imagine how it could possibly be any good.

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The Sand Snakes were meant to be plot devices for Arianne and Doran's development as allies. They are meant to represent "Dorne" as a force who wants revenge without the consequences, and Arianne is dragged into it, believing revenge for the sake of revenge is a good course of action.



She grows out of it.



We're not meant to cheer for them wanting to create chaos in Dorne and call for war. You might like Doran's actions or not, but we're not meant to cheer for the Snakes and their obvious dislike of Doran. Doran kept Dorne safe. They don't mind who gets killed. We should believe Arianne is becoming mature by rejecting her cousin's ways and becoming Doran's real daughter.



The show believes that their 'badass' attitude is something we should feel is the great thing ever because they don't mind about themes. The theme in Dorne is "revenge for the sake of revenge will hurt innocents". What happened to Myrcella is nothing compared what could have happened to Dorne if Doran and Oberyn had simply tried to declare war against the Throne in name of Elia.



Also, good as they are, they are kinda meant to play with Dorne's stereotypes. As soon as Nymeria sets foot in KL, many will say "oh, a woman who is so sexually open and fights with daggers? Typical Dorne". We know she's more than that, very much like her other sisters. Also Arianne, who is definitely not defined by her sexuality. The show took those stereotypes and tried to created a personality out of them, that's why they look cartoonish.


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GRRM is not just creating characters for no reason. As the story got bigger and the characters travelled further apart geographically he could no longer get them into the plots he had planned for them. So he split many of the main characters in to a numbers of different characters.

Well that sounds like just creating characters in order to procrastinate writing the actual story. If he split the characters apart geographically and now has to add characters, that is the gist of all of the problems with the books. He is not writing a story at that point. He is creating a travelogue and additional characters, without making them interact and actually DO something.

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If D&D decided to cut JonCon/fAegon/Second Dance of Dragons (which seems likely), then there is no need for Arianne. But still, it seems that D&D will make Dorne enemy to Dany as in the books and that will probably be achieved by Trystane/Myrcella marriage. After the news of Hizdahr/Dany marriage comes, Doran will complain of best laid plans and decide to throw his lots with the Lannisters.

This is acceptable for the show purposes for me.

Isn't Doran mad at them for killing Elia?

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