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Debating Sansa


Westeros

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If, as a writer, you start to worry about all the possible people you could offend with a controversial scene or chapter, then you would quickly lose your balls as an artist and produce sanitised crap. As long as you are happy that the scene or character works within the rules of the story and is credible, then you write what you feel is right.

Then you can't complain about criticism.

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Well then why do they study fighting techniques if realism is not important? Who cares if the weapons and armor are used correctly, who cares if the stunts look good, who cares if injuries are believable? It's the same concept applied.

Fucking hell that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this site.

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Yes exactly, the Sansa marriage strategy is well known and highly effective. It's the reason for Napoleon's successful 1805 campaign. He married Sansa off to the Haspburgs.

:lol: Dont stop!

WHO OPTED NOT TO HAVE MANDERLY IN THE SHOW

Right? Removing this seemingly minor character has caused so much illogical mess and damage, its kinda staggering. The removal of Arianne, Young Griff....i expected to see Manderly...but no! More salt in the wound.

Idk, I won't anymore. I guess it was because I listened to that recording from angryGOTfan and like...gods. It's so powerful, and it just makes me so disgusted that there are people who literally don't even try to understand. I want to force every single GoT viewer to listen to that. It's been argued in this thread that "Sansa isn't a real person so her abuse isn't real," but also that our "critique of the show is abusive to D&D," so like, listening to the actual individuals who are hurt by this? It makes me sick.

I think people need to see this cuz i just saw it and its...important to hear. So for those who dont know what we are talking about, here. This matters.

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- Why would Sansa betray him? She could have done it in front of the Vale lords last season and he would be in prison now. She helped him and lied for him. ... and that he'll give her Winterfell. She has no reason to betray him.

- Why would Ramsay kill her? It makes no sense. The Boltons need the Vale army ... they need this alliance with Litttlefinger

- Why would he abandon his greatest prize alone? Because it's his asset, he wants to use her where he has the most to win.

Sansa chose Baelish as the devil you know in the Vale. Yes, on the surface he has helped her, but she's also seen the manipulative and creepy side of him. She felt safer with him than the unknown Vale Lords, but she doesn't fully trust him. Baelish is a fool for leaving her alone in the North, her home, even if she is surrounded by the Boltons for now. Sansa is a powerful rallying point and can easily build her own powerbase given a chance. Baelish needs her under his control, not set lose to make her own alliances and enact her own plans with only a chance she'll still look to him once this is all settled.

He also abandoned his hold on the Vale and Robin to take a gamble on the North. I know he's a risk taker, but he barely has a hold on Robin and he gave him into the hands of Lord Royce. At least logically he shouldn't have as strong a hold on the Vale as he seems to have, but hey. The writers said so. He not only abandoned Sansa, he abandoned Robin - his two most valuable pawns. Robin will grow stronger under Royce as his goal is to make him into a leader worth following, which is pretty much the opposite of what Baelish should want. I guess if we are to believe Baelish really is willing to send Sansa's head to Cersei on a spike, then it doesn't matter anyway since the Vale and Sansa are just stepping stones to his real prize, but that is not what you are arguing. And if he does actually care about Sansa's well-being, then leaving her with the Boltons and their reputation with freshly flayed bodies hanging from the gate might, just might, give him pause. (And if Baelish can't pry that story out of a servant or two, then he is even more of an idiot than the writers have made him out to be)

As for The Boltons needing the Vale army, ok, I can give you that. It does make you wonder how they expect to keep the North after the've won it, however. Sure, they will have it for now, but spring will eventually come and the King (Cersei) will eventually be bothered to take back the North. Moat Cailin isn't the only way into the North and can the Vale and the North hold against the rest of the Kingdom? They've gained a short-term advantage and are risking the long game.

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What the hell have props and costumes got to do with what we are talking about?

It's not necessarily the props and costumes... everything has to be convincing, or the creators will be critiqued - see the Sand Snake skirmish, it was ridiculous. Write and film what you know or study it before you tackle it. D&D said they had much difficulty filming scenes with horses since they did not know anything and they had to learn. The same applies to rape scenes and everything else under the sun, realism and knowledge matters.

Again for the record I'm waiting to see how Sansa's situation plays out first, it may not be as bad as some fear.

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It's not necessarily the props and costumes... everything has to be convincing, or the creators will be critiqued - see the Sand Snake skirmish, it was ridiculous. Write and film what you know or study it before you tackle it. D&D said they had much difficulty filming scenes with horses since they did not know anything and they had to learn. The same applies to rape scenes and everything else under the sun, realism and knowledge matters.

Bizarre. We've gone from complaining that the rape was gratuitous to it wasn't realistic enough. You're all over the place.

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When people say that the books had sex and violence in them, it's true, but the show takes it to a different level. It's used a lot of the time as set-dressing rather than to make a point. When I first began visiting the forums and saw many complaints about how much sex was in the books and that it felt gratuitous, I thought people were exaggerating because I didn't remember it that way. Yes, it's there, but in a realistic and not in your face kind of way. If it was there, it was making a point. The show does it because they can. It's also a different experience reading it and seeing it. So any justifications of 'it's in the books' falls flat for me because the book and the show use it in different ways.

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I haven't read the article shared... see, I don't share the point of view that tv shouldn't keep itself from portraying those things. For example, I was kidnapped when I was a kid and it affected me little. I have no problem with seeing on tv. But that's my opinion because I'm a tough cookie.



I don't believe the problem is that GoT showed a rape or not. I have little problem with that kind of violence in books or screen. When people say "they shouldn't show this or that", they are denying the problem. We're not helping anyone by hiding it, yet, we should be very careful on how to handle it.



It's like GGG said in a previous post: why not sending Jon to fight and be killed by a shark, if sharks are, after all, known for killing people. I'm gonna change that a bit. Why don't we have Jaime, Jon, Tyrion or Jorah being raped on screen? Jaime was in a vulnerable position when he was captured. The Wildlings are known to rape in the North. And Tyrion and Jorah have no way to defend themselves. Narratively, it would make sense. Yet, they aren't doing it. Because for the show, the way to portray a women VULNERABLE is making her a victim of sexual violence. That's it. That doesn't apply for men. For women, their narrative works like that: if she's vulnerable, put a man to rape her unless she's sassy or holds a weapon.


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Bizarre. We've gone from complaining that the rape was gratuitous to it wasn't realistic enough. You're all over the place.

Nope I personally have not complained about the rape scene once. And of course everyone should expect any rapes to be portray realistically! That's one of the biggest concerns for the aftermath with Sansa.

Since I've not been clear, I am tired and need to go to bed, I'll try again.

You said basically that rape victim stories are irrelevant and writer's and show runners should not concern themselves with it and push on anyway. I meant basically that they need the knowledge to depict it properly and who better to learn from.

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I haven't read the article shared... see, I don't share the point of view that tv shouldn't keep itself from portraying those things. For example, I was kidnapped when I was a kid and it affected me little. I have no problem with seeing on tv. But that's my opinion because I'm a tough cookie.

I don't believe the problem is that GoT showed a rape or not. I have little problem with that kind of violence in books or screen. When people say "they shouldn't show this or that", they are denying the problem. We're not helping anyone by hiding it, yet, we should be very careful on how to handle it.

It's like GGG said in a previous post: why not sending Jon to fight and be killed by a shark, if sharks are, after all, known for killing people. I'm gonna change that a bit. Why don't we have Jaime, Jon, Tyrion or Jorah being raped on screen? Jaime was in a vulnerable position when he was captured. The Wildlings are known to rape in the North. And Tyrion and Jorah have no way to defend themselves. Narratively, it would make sense. Yet, they aren't doing it. Because for the show, the way to portray a women VULNERABLE is making her a victim of sexual violence. That's it. That doesn't apply for men. For women, their narrative works like that: if she's vulnerable, put a man to rape her unless she's sassy or holds a weapon.

Exactly. I said the same thing in another thread. Being orphaned is enough of a catalyst for the likes of Harry Potter or Bruce Wayne, so why couldn't that be a catalyst for Sansa? Why do the show has to go the extra mile and rape her too?

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This, and Tyrion raping the whore in Volantis, or Marillion nearly raping Sansa in the Vale. If HBO loves rape so much, why did they miss thiss? :rolleyes:

Because they're in the habit of selective raping. They could never taint Saint Tyrion with such abhorrence, but they're fine with making a female main character victim of one to prop up Theon's story.

Guess who has been incredibly short-sighted!

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Really, people see what they want to see.



Tyrion raped a woman in books. Not shown.


Petyr let a girl being raped. Not shown.



Cersei had an ambiguous scene of power play in books. Turned in into plain rape.


Sansa has been in constant danger of being sexually forced. Turned it into plain rape.


Dany had also a very ambiguous scene of sex with Drogo. Turned into plain rape.



Theon was tortured by Ramsay. Turned into plain explicit rape.


Gendry wasn't captured by DS team. He replaced Edric and his time there was turned into plain explicit rape.


Tommen is a kid who is captivated by margaery with kittens. Aged up and their relationship is turned into plain subtle rape.



I cannot be the only one seeing this awful terrible double standard.


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I don't believe the problem is that GoT showed a rape or not. I have little problem with that kind of violence in books or screen. When people say "they shouldn't show this or that", they are denying the problem. We're not helping anyone by hiding it, yet, we should be very careful on how to handle it.

The article's point of view was not that it shouldn't be depicted. It's that rape changes you and sometimes you become broken rather than empowered. It's a heart-breaking story illustrating why this topic needs to be portrayed with care. In the author's opinion, GRRM does it right, and the show got it wrong. So, yes, it essentially agrees with your comment that it should be handled carefully, but perhaps you should read it before commenting on it.

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The article's point of view was not that it shouldn't be depicted. It's that rape changes you and sometimes you become broken rather than empowered. It's a heart-breaking story illustrating why this topic needs to be portrayed with care. In the author's opinion, GRRM does it right, and the show got it wrong. So, yes, it essentially agrees with your comment that it should be handled carefully, but perhaps you should read it before commenting on it.

Thanks for clarifying that. I've read many articles about the subject (not Sansa's situation, in general) saying "I don't want this on tv because it hurts me". It's a respectable opinion, definitely, but it's not one I share not one I would think it's helpful. But I can understand why a person wouldn't want that on tv. With some many people having triggers by many different things, then tv would be only fluffy bunnies and happy rainbows. That is, imo, also bad tv.

But yeah, I think the misconception in this whole mess is that we simply don't want to see a rape on tv. Or in GoT. We know GoT is violent, but at least imo, they have exceed their quota in sexual violence. I could have understood once or two scenes like that. We've already have around five. And it's not like they are portraying a war in which having gore scenes would be normal and expected. They are portraying female characters walking into situations in which they are gonna be victims of a rape. Like Meera... why Meera ended up in a place full with rapists if not to be sexually threatened? With that in mind, wouldn't be also logically expected that many male characters had ended up losing limbs or worst because they face danger all the time? Yes, only Jaime lost his hand. Jon could have been hurt and raped by wildlings. Jorah and Tyrion should have been already raped by slavers too. But this hasn't happened to them.

As far as I see it, the arguments against the scene are not "they shouldn't portray rape". Maybe some are, but a small minority. Mostly arguments are of the likes of

1. Being gratuitous, as in what it's condemned is the intention of the producers, not the scene itself

2. Being used as a simplistic plot device that will be solved unrealistic.

3. It contradicts the narrative of what Sansa has been shown to progress so far

4. It makes narratively little sense that LF would send Sansa to such a situation.

5. It's suspicious that many female characters are raped in the show.

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