Debating Sansa

[Dracosmith]

My oppinion on this matter is totally in line with Linda's and Elio's.

The main issue is the desicion to put Sansa to Winterfell as Ramsay's bride at all (it's certainly debatable; I for one don't actually like it, can understand why they did it). If she is in Winterfell in this very position, the only right choice is to just follow the natures of the characters and the main routes of the original story.

Ramsay is who he is - heck, he was even somewhat downplayed on the show with all his funny jokes and the less extrem treatment of Theon (even the rape scene itself was more harmless than the book counterpart). So the only way to protray this wedding night is to do what he does there. It's totally in-character, anything else would have continuation issues and would certainly be branded as "terrible writing" by many book readers as well.

Sansa is more complicated because she as a character is still "in development". Yes, she has stepped up last season and she is more of a player now, but she is still a teenage girl. So she certainly makes the brave move to accept Ramsay as her husband (including all the potential consequences), but in the very moment she of course is marginalized again (which tends to come along with getting raped). But all this basically is also totally in line with her ongoing character evolution.

I think the main problem with the scene that most people have - even if they disguise it by arguments like 'shock value', 'terrible writing'; 'it's all about Theon', 'it was unnecesary' etc. - is that this is Sansa. Who we care about. And we suffer with her. And yes, all these are valid reasons to be upset, but in the end you have to be upset about the decision to let Sansa take Jeyne's place AT ALL and not about this very scene happening. Because that's just double standards.

This is a very logical argument. Personally I only accept the decision based on faith. Faith that they are doing that because they have some inside knowledge that I dont that Sansa ultimately ends up in a place wherein it makes sense for her to be going through what is depicted on screen. If otherwise, you will end up being more correct than even face value of your comments.

Therefore, I'm hoping it makes sense in the end.

[Hippocras]

It's not because she's bullet proof. It's because she has an storyline of her own, one in which she develops as a person of her own, she's not a plot device.

I think people too easily gloss over the likelihood that this does in fact contain elements of her book story and get her to the same endpoint. I say likelihood because of course I don't know what will happen in the books for sure. But I would predict the following:

1. Sexual violence and Sansa's maiden status has been a key theme of her book story just as much as her show story. It is very likely that she does experience a rape eventually, if off page IMO.

2. It is also extremely likely that Sansa does go North eventually in the books to reclaim Winterfell and that she will have to make some very conflicted choices in the process. Also that these choices will not be entirely in her control.

3. Myranda Royce, we saw in the sample chapter, wants Harry for herself and may (I speculate) work against Alayne in the books as a consequence. She may be the one to reveal Sansa is in the Vale to the wrong person in fact (to get her out of the way so she can marry Harry). There is an intriguing weave in the books because of this friendship between Myranda and Alayne, the connection between the Redforts and Boltons, Waynwoods and Freys, Royces of the Gates of the Moon, Mya Stone and the Redforts. In other words, things may be leading in a similar direction in the books, we just don't know it yet.

4. If indeed Sansa does need to get North to set up the endgame, this show change is an efficient way to make it all happen without a huge supporting cast and extra sets for the Vale storyline. Particularly if her Vale storyline in any case includes the same elements of conflicted choices, awful people, and likely rape...as well as intervention from Brienne.

5. Finally, please note that in the original outline for GRRM's series, he had Sansa marrying the character who burned Winterfell and destroyed her family. It is simply that in the original outline that character was Jamie. So the books may STILL be heading vaguely in that direction, only the character of Jamie was vastly altered, and the Boltons ended up destroying Winterfell.

[Neumond]

Very interesting debate going on.

The real question for me is: Why is Jeyne Pooles story-line so important?

If Jeyne Pooles plot is more important than Sansas character development, then I think GRRM certainly lost his grip on the story.

If Jeynes plot is so important, she should have gotten more spot-light from the beginning.

But she didn´t and therefore I think, she is just a plot device and that part could have been played by any character.

Inserting Sansa into this story-line seems like a very obvious: "Hey we have to ramp up the shock-factor this season again." (Even if the rape wasn´t Jeyne-Poole-dog-Theon horrific. The emotional investment in the character is much higher (as people already pointed out)...)

So I think we should wait and see what comes of it.

But if having Sansa there doesn´t turn out to be a genius short-cut towards her endgame.

Then this one is on them! Then they have raped a pov-character just for shock-value which is not only abysmal story-telling and disrespecting grrms characters.

This is absolutely distasteful and shows something very common in fantasy-stories. This is bad story-telling guys!

Can you rape a POV in your story? Yes you can, but it is very difficult to handle. And D&D didn´t handle such things well in the past.

As for the comparison of murder and rape: Murdering someone conveniently rids you of the task to have the character handle this traumatizing experience.

And this part is key for rape in fiction. You must have your POV-character deal with rape.

We´ll have to see, what comes from it.

[Hippocras]

Neumond-

I speculate that Jeyne's story is important because it is foreshadowing, and will eventually allow GRRM to IMPLY what happens to Sansa rather than directly write it. We will KNOW what her decisions or those made for her will mean even if she doesn't.

It is also, of course, important for Theon's story and the show doesn't have enough time to do Jeyne's story as well as Sansa's Vale arc. I rather suspect this show change will prove to be a very efficient means to capture many key elements of both, while getting Sansa in place in the North at the right time for the speed of events in the show.

[Neumond]

Hippocras:

That could very well be possible. As I said it could be an amazing shortcut. But I somehow doubt that GRRM would just repeat Sansas KL-plot. I have trust in him to be a better story-teller than that.

However: Many people are speculating, that Sansa will end up fleeing with Theon as Jeyne did. Then I would say they wouldn´t have need for Sansa being in WF. If she doesn´t do something while there, her story is one of the most ridiculous damsel in distress stories I´ve ever read/watched... We´ll have to wait and see. It will certainly be interesting to see, what they will do with Sansa.

And having Sansas humiliated for Theon´s character development is, what some people would call a "woman in refrigeratoresque" development.

If this turns out to be true, I really think they should have gotten rid of Sansa. Just kill her off and be done with it. This would be a great shock, too.

So let´s hope they really know, what they are doing there...

[Hippocras]

Did you read my post above? The first one? IMO the scenario is not as complicated as you describe.

Sansa will not flee with Theon in the books IMO. Theon's story has Jeyne and doesn't need Sansa in the books. Sansa, meanwhile, has Brienne most likely. In the show Sansa's story does not SERVE Theon's IMO, but is merged with Theon's, which in any case foreshadowed her own in the books.

[Neumond]

Yes I read it. And we should remember: we are both speculating.

I´m just not sold on the idea, Sansa will get raped in the books. It could happen. But it also couldn´t.

And I always interpreted Lady´s death as a symbol for her never going north again.

This is obviously my interpretation and could be completely off.

But at this moment in time we have no way to tell red herrings, foreshadowings and right interpretations from wrong ones apart.

If it happens the way you described, yes this would be a great shortcut.

If it happens the way I believe it will, then it´s abysmal.

As I said, we are both speculating.

So we will have to wait and see and perhaps in a few years we will remember this discussion. Come back and have a good laugh at how wrong we both were ;).

[Hippocras]

I think the wolf thing meaning was a bit different, but you are right, we shall see.

First it was Ned betraying her, even though he didn't do it on purpose. But his choices meant loyalty to the crown without defending what was best for her and Lady was a microcosm of that. Then later Sansa betrayed Ned not on purpose.

Second, Sansa was indeed cut off from the North, but it doesn't mean she could never return, physically, but would have to do so by other means.

Third, the characterization of Lady was...well...a Lady. The meaning to me is that Sansa eventually had the "Lady" in her killed by betrayal and lies.

Finally, the death of Lady has implications for her warging ability. It doesn't necessarily mean she will never warg, but it does mean IMO she will not do so as a wolf. Either that or she will warg Nymeria...which is harder to understand how it would happen because it would imply that Arya dies I think (or becomes noone). The sister rivalry we know will eventually be important somehow, and it seems significant that Lady was killed as a replacement for Nymeria...

Sansa's "Lady" will be killed as a replacement for fArya maybe?

[GeorgeIAF]

I think the scene was less shocking than in the books, the unsullied know nothing,

[1234567]

There are so many problems with the change to this storyline that it is difficult to know where to begin.

D&D seem to be making character choices without thinking through the choice to it's logical conclusion or having the character look at the logical conclusion. They have said this is about Sansa making a choice: to accept marriage and sex with the son of her mother and brother's murders and the man who raised her home to the ground and slaughtered her retainers in order to get revenge.

However this revenge in never explained in its mechanics, instead it is a nebulous idea of still having friends. Sansa is meant to think this is possible but then not think about the other logical ramifications: How long will it take? Days, months, years? In the meantime she has made a public consensual marriage to a monster and propped up the Bolton's claims to legitimately rule the North via marriage to her. Then by accepting she will be sleeping with Ramsay she will also be accepting the chance of having a child with him. This child would be a Bolton and would forever be the Bolton's victory over the Starks as their bloodline would always have a claim to Winterfell. She either has to take Moontea continually and hope she is not discovered doing this or dispose of her own children in order to avoid the Bolton legacy for Winterfell, in which case her character does not become a player but a monster with a hollow victory. Suppose she lets any children live, then they still are at risk of being killed by the Northern Lords who lost family at the Red Wedding and do not wish to be ruled by Bolton's (unless of course it's a brutal medieval world excuse suddenly changes to 'nah everyone will be cool with that'). Even if they are accepted then the Bolton's have won: their bloodline and name rules the North. It makes no sense that her character would make this "hardened woman" choice without looking at the other consequences of what her marriage means.

It would almost make some tiny bit of sense if there were any Lords at Winterfell for the marriage she could make alliances with / manipulate so that revenge is instant, but there aren't. Indeed the fact the producer said they loved the storyline, but cut out everything in the Winterfell storyline bar Jeyne Poole suggests that they just wanted to do a shocking rape scene with Sansa. Indeed Cogman's excuse just seems like a way of trying to justify their bad decision as it makes no sense why any woman would choose to marry in to the Bolton's for all the reasons above.

And this is only one issue with the storyline without getting into using a female character to help a male character grow, the abhorrent rape as empowerment trope, the cutting of her own storyline, the reduction of her character growth, the accumulative use of rape and sexualisation of women on GOT, the fact they have been planning this since she was a minor, the fact that Sansa as a character has unfortunately been the subject of widespread rape wishing in the past and this scene feeds into that psyche etc etc.

[Chebyshov]

I think the main problem with the scene that most people have - even if they disguise it by arguments like 'shock value', 'terrible writing'; 'it's all about Theon', 'it was unnecesary' etc. - is that this is Sansa. Who we care about. And we suffer with her. And yes, all these are valid reasons to be upset, but in the end you have to be upset about the decision to let Sansa take Jeyne's place AT ALL and not about this very scene happening. Because that's just double standards.

This is the crux of it. It's not a double standard. Do you know why? These are not real girls. We DO care more about Sansa because that's the character we're more invested in. And that's okay. That's how a narrative works. And it's also something the showrunners and writers knew perfectly well when crafting this situation. That's precisely why they did it:

“You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.” -Bryan Cogman

Look, I know it's a nuanced point to be arguing that what was depicted is okay in the books, but not on the show. But while I'd never argue that rape or violence against women can't be used in storytelling as some do, there needs to be a reason or some sense for it.

I think in general there’s a serious devaluing going on of the empathetic reaction on the part of audience members. And as fans, witnessing that scene was more traumatic with Sansa as the victim than it would have been with Jeyne. It's not to say we wouldn't have cared about Jeyne or it wouldn't have been upsetting--of course it would have. But the fact that it was Sansa does matter. And we know that it was included precisely because it was going to be more traumatic for us (again, these are fictional women) that they did this. The point was to make it more horrific, and to exploit our emotions to upset us more. Bryan Cogman baldly stated this.

It worked. I’ve talked to people who have said things like, “I feel almost triggered by this, when I’ve never experienced it before.” That’s empathy, and that’s a powerful thing. And it is a very real and sometimes painful thing as well. So if you’re going to put fans through that, through the brutalization of a main character, you better have a damn good reason for it.

But…we know they didn’t. We know they twisted every single bit of logic to stick Sansa into that role simply because they wanted her there. We know they ignored all character development to make this come to pass. And we know that she is now stuck in someone else’s storyline where she doesn’t belong. Even if they "handle this well" moving forward (see: Cersei's handling in Season 4 please), they aren't "handling" it with any respect to Sansa's story or character.

What makes this the most frustrating, as I said, is that the way the did this created a space for apologists. They showrunners can hide behind the "well it's in the books" defense. The fact is, they have twisted themselves into Windsor knots to alter the book material so that this would come to pass, and it was a way that blew up what little internal logic they had on the show in the first place. So to act as if there's some great respect for the source material as the reason they had to go through with it?

What's the one thing Martin said he'd never do? The "on-screen" rape of a major character. Because it's tasteless.

The showrunners and writers had all the power in the world to not have this happen. It's sickening that despite that, they did everything they could to force Sansa into this situation for a shock.

So stop treating it like there's some great hypocrisy or moral failing on our part for being okay with the scene in the books but not the show. We saw what Martin was doing in the books. It was a scene designed to upset us, yes, but also a scene that had a completely logical set-up and one that played out with regards to the characterizations of the players in the room. It was one with a clear point in the narrative. And that point was dependent on Jeyne being Jeyne.

It's okay that we're upset because it is Sansa. It is logical, in fact, that we're upset because it is Sansa. And the showrunners demonstrated that they expected us to be upset because it is Sansa. This was unethical storytelling.

[Le Cygne]

There are so many problems with the change to this storyline that it is difficult to know where to begin.

D&D seem to be making character choices without thinking through the choice to it's logical conclusion or having the character look at the logical conclusion. They have said this is about Sansa making a choice: to accept marriage and sex with the son of her mother and brother's murders and the man who raised her home to the ground and slaughtered her retainers in order to get revenge.

However this revenge in never explained in its mechanics, instead it is a nebulous idea of still having friends. Sansa is meant to think this is possible but then not think about the other logical ramifications: How long will it take? Days, months, years? In the meantime she has made a public consensual marriage to a monster and propped up the Bolton's claims to legitimately rule the North via marriage to her. Then by accepting she will be sleeping with Ramsay she will also be accepting the chance of having a child with him. This child would be a Bolton and would forever be the Bolton's victory over the Starks as their bloodline would always have a claim to Winterfell. She either has to take Moontea continually and hope she is not discovered doing this or dispose of her own children in order to avoid the Bolton legacy for Winterfell, in which case her character does not become a player but a monster with a hollow victory. Suppose she lets any children live, then they still are at risk of being killed by the Northern Lords who lost family at the Red Wedding and do not wish to be ruled by Bolton's (unless of course it's a brutal medieval world excuse suddenly changes to 'nah everyone will be cool with that'). Even if they are accepted then the Bolton's have won: their bloodline and name rules the North. It makes no sense that her character would make this "hardened woman" choice without looking at the other consequences of what her marriage means.

It would almost make some tiny bit of sense if there were any Lords at Winterfell for the marriage she could make alliances with / manipulate so that revenge is instant, but there aren't. Indeed the fact the producer said they loved the storyline, but cut out everything in the Winterfell storyline bar Jeyne Poole suggests that they just wanted to do a shocking rape scene with Sansa. Indeed Cogman's excuse just seems like a way of trying to justify their bad decision as it makes no sense why any woman would choose to marry in to the Bolton's for all the reasons above.

And this is only one issue with the storyline without getting into using a female character to help a male character grow, the abhorrent rape as empowerment trope, the cutting of her own storyline, the reduction of her character growth, the accumulative use of rape and sexualisation of women on GOT, the fact they have been planning this since she was a minor etc etc.

All of this. That they didn't take the time to make this plot seem in any way reasonable, or in any way organic to this character or her story, or others as well, makes it seem like what it is: all that really mattered was that she be raped.

They even said, RAMSAY has this storyline, so they wanted to USE HER. Ramsay. Use her. This is not about Sansa at all. She has a story of her own, that the author wrote for her, that they could have creatively adapted.

Jeyne Poole is a minor character. Why not scrap Arya's story this season, and make her Bride of Ramsay. Sansa's story was just as important to Sansa as Arya's story was to Arya. But they gutted Sansa and her story, rushed past it, so she could be raped.

And the argument that:

1. An absurd plot full of holes was necessary to make Sansa be Jeyne.

2. But having done so, of course Sansa should be raped because that's what Ramsay would do.

Makes no sense. Stop at 1.

The emphasis in this argument is RAMSAY. What RAMSAY would do. Not that its absurd that SANSA should be USED this way.

If Arianne was Bride of Ramsay, Arianne "should" be raped because that's what Ramsay would do. But Arianne should not be Bride of Ramsay.

If the world is flat, it makes sense that when you reach the edge you fall off. But the world is not flat. Stop at that.

That any 15 year old would be a "hardened" woman and give up any hopes and dreams of a normal human life is absurd. They also neglected to show all of the things LF has done to her that made this not a real "choice" at all.

This man has destroyed her life: killed her father, betrayed her mother, starting a war that killed her mother and brother and she thinks her other siblings, too, made her a hostage, who was beaten, trapped her into a forced marriage with the enemy, set her up for regicide, kidnapped her, used her to murder people, forced kisses on her, tried to kill Brienne when she tried to help, pimped her out without telling her, tricked her into another forced marriage with the enemy, and in hostile turf with the knights at his command who he ordered to kill Brienne, manipulated her... I'm sure I'm leaving something out.

This is not how the story was presented. They said she chose to be there. She just didn't count on him being Ramsay. Which again makes no sense. She had many clues that he was dangerous, this is the family that killed hers, but there was more.

Even if he'd just been an ordinary dangerous Bolton, she may have a child, with the consequences you pointed out. This is not a Stark victory. This is a Stark defeat in a tragic, personal way. And it's not something Cat or Ned would EVER want for her, they would be heartbroken.

A Stark has been brutally raped by a Bolton. A Stark has been forever harmed by this. Her first time with a man, she's brutally violated by a woman-hating psycho, screaming in pain. Rape is not empowerment, that we have to even explain that is wrong.

Also, this is false: If she had not done what LF told her to do, they would never ever have a chance at Winterfell again! No, in fact, there were better ways. Just from a story perspective, that LF is behind this makes it seem a questionable approach.

[kn1tt3r]

Maybe you've misread what I was trying to say. I agree that it's perfectly right for people to be upset about what happend to Sansa in the show, but my complaint is that many are not really honest about it.

First of all - sure, there has been some rage against the decision to let Sansa take Jeyne's role in the first place, but that was nothing compared to this one now. But if you think about it, the majority of the rage should go against the first decision, because the scene of last episode was just a (even though some might deny it) necessary consequence in terms of continuity of story and the involved characters.

And second of all - many people try to find other arguments, more rational arguments to support their oppinion on this scene. Something like "against Sansa's character evolution", "it's just about Theon", "only for shock value" etc.. Whereas for the most part the only real reason is that it's Sansa going through that situation. And yes, it's perfeclty ok to be enraged about that because we are very invested in that character (by nature more so than we are invested in Jeyne). But at least people should admit that it's mainly because of that they are angry. Because in terms of writing, storytelling, continuity etc. there was no real way around that scene once the first decision was made.

Maybe this was not ethical, I don't know. For me this doesn't even occur, because I am a person who doesn't really get deeply invested in fictional characters, and I am almost certain that this is quite similar for the writers, who see the show more from a backstage perspective than a real POV perspective.

[Le Cygne]

No, we are arguing against the decision to USE Sansa as Jeyne in the first place, and what happens that falls from that.

Here are the common arguments, they each make the same ones, repeatedly:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129188-debating-sansa/?p=7007916

[Chebyshov]

And second of all - many people try to find other arguments, more rational arguments to support their oppinion on this scene. Something like "against Sansa's character evolution", "it's just about Theon", "only for shock value" etc.. Whereas for the most part the only real reason is that it's Sansa going through that situation. And yes, it's perfeclty ok to be enraged about that because we are very invested in that character (by nature more so than we are invested in Jeyne). But at least people should admit that it's mainly because of that they are angry. Because in terms of writing, storytelling, continuity etc. there was no real way around that scene once the first decision was made.

THAT'S THE ISSUE. That "first decision" is the entire issue. Because it was made solely on the grounds of exploiting the audience to make something more horrible that services Ramsay and Theon's arc.

I'm saying that it makes sense we are more upset that it's Sansa, and it's rude of people to be dismissive of that and to chalk it up to those "illogical emotions" of ours. But don't act for one second as if there's no logic to be found in the "only for shock value" criticism when WE KNOW that's why it was done. Cogman told us.

ETA: Not to mention why is it that they're willing to have consistent storytelling and continuity that stays true to Ramsay when it came at the expense of the storytelling of Sansa, Roose, and Littlefinger?

Oh right, because they wanted Sansa to be raped.

[Hippocras]

Outrage because it is Sansa and not Jeyne is baffling, because rape is rape whether it is a character we care about or not, and if anything the reaction proves the LACK of empathy for people/characters we don't know as a general problem of contemporary culture...because seriously, why SHOULD it be better for Jeyne to get raped?

As for the outrage over the show including rape at all....the series at its core is about political violence, its manifestations and its consequences. So it is ok to include all kinds of brutality just not rape? Why? Rape is every bit as important as battles in how power struggles work. So too is political marriage.

Finally outrage over changing it from books to show...people should seriously reserve judgement on that until they actually know where Sansa's book story is going. Because we don't actually know how big a change this is. Many book clues in fact point in a similar direction as I outlined above. So no point getting all righteous against the show for changing the books only to find out that Sansa does in fact go North to claim Winterfell by dubious means, and does in fact get raped at some point in the books.

[Le Cygne]

I'm saying that it makes sense we are more upset that it's Sansa, and it's rude of people to be dismissive of that and to chalk it up to those "illogical emotions" of ours. But don't act for one second as if there's no logic to be found in the "only for shock value" criticism when WE KNOW that's why it was done. Cogman told us.

Agreed. We would be more upset if it was Arya, Jon, Bran, and other main characters, too. We should be more upset if it's happening to main characters.

As the Washington Post put it:

The use of sexual violence as plot device is not new to Game of Thrones and it's not unique just to this show, either. But while on each occasion in the past it's been plenty disturbing, tonight's closing scene with Ramsay Bolton and Sansa was just flat-out disgusting.

Even if you've never read the books (myself included and that shouldn't limit anyone's enjoyment of the show) it's hard not to know that what happens to Sansa in this episode doesn't happen to Sansa in the books. The show's creators are free to take liberty with certain storylines and characters, but by putting Sansa into this situation, by taking a character that viewers are fully invested in, and subjecting her to the horrors of Ramsay Bolton, it's hard to interpret this as anything but using her rape as an emotionally manipulative plot device.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2015/05/18/game-of-thrones-recap-season-5-episode-6-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-but-plenty-disgusted-and-disappointed/

[Julia Martell]

This is getting ridiculous.

Very few reasonable people, and no one in this thread that I can see are upset that 1. There is sexual violence at all in any book series or tv show, 2. That this is a clear deviation from the source material.

We’re upset that this adaptation has a history of going out of there way to include sexual violence from the source material, and even add in some of their own (Craster’s Keep anyone?) no matter what hoops of illogic and poor adaptational choices they have to jump through to get there. And when this is juxtaposed to the way they seem happy to alter and exclude female characters and their plot lines that have nothing to do with sexual violence, (Arianne, Lady Stoneheart, the real Margaery, Asha....) it does not paint a very flattering picture of their narrative priorities.

[Malik Ambar]

Only one question : If the showrunners had the power to make changes, one that they are using so liberally, then why not show Sansa taking charge of the situation in some way ? Maybe show her succesfully seducing Ramsay as a part of a larger plot to turn the Boltons on themselves ? Maybe show Sansa pretending to be a sadist like him to eventually control him ? That way, you can still cover the horrors she goes through, and at the same time she ends up being something more than a victim all over again. Even theon's rise can be covered in this situation. Then what was the need to go down this road ?

[Equilibrium]

Well you did raise some good points and I agree with some of them, but I disagree completely about cut to Theon.

You said it was made that way to be easier to stomach and that is in my opinion their biggest mistake. Rape should not be easy to stomach, if they mean for it to have any impact on the story or any real world commentary it should be as hard to stomach as it can. It is horrifying, gut-wrenching, it can't be something that happened by the way, last Sunday, Jorah and Tyrion talked stuff and Sansa was raped, Theon hates Ramsey because he castrated him, tortured him and raped Sansa, Sansa hates Boltons because they killed everybody she knew, oh, and also Ramsey maybe kinda raped her off-screen.

It's not like they are first to do rape on screen, there are bunch of examples in which rape is done in visceral and vivid way without resorting to graphic exploitation. No need for typical HBO nudity, but rape should have been show, we should see their faces we should be forced to see the act in everything it entails, we should be pushed to the boundaries of our emotions and empathy. I would have no problem with Theon being in the picture and scene being used for his arc also, but in the background, it's not about him.

But show never did that right, not just with rape, but with violence, it just wasn't done in impactful way, I can't say what is missing but it just isn't there, it's art not science.

And they are huge cowards, they wanted to have Sansa raped but they tried to make it inoffensive and sidelined as possible because having people to shocked and to disturbed could lead them unsubscribing, which show their misunderstanding of source material and their low opinion of their audience as some immature brats who are confused with strong and negative emotions and incapable of thinking about serious and provoking events and themes, all in for fighting and fucking but distraught and befuddled with serious impacts and their own emotion things like murder and rape can cause when truly bared and put into focus.