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That guy Alistair

I'm not buying this Faith Militant

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The faith militant have become very different on the show to those in the books, and while I'm generally ok with changes they still have to make sense and at the moment I'm not buying that this change works.

To me in the books the faith militant is a populous movement lead by a zealot leader. So far watching the show I've been getting more of a Zealous movement lead by a populous leader. We have seen the High Sparrow helping and tending to the poor. I am able to believe that he would have a large following. However with the way the faith militant is charging around, attacking markets and taverns and brothels (places where people go to get enjoyment... rich or poor) and seeing people beg the gold cloaks for help, I'm finding it hard to believe that the Faith militant could get enough support by the population.

The reason Tommen in the books cant attack the Sept is because of the love the small folk have for the new religious movement sweeping the country. But in the show I've seen very little reason that the people of Kings Landing wouldnt support a clearing out of those who have been causing torment through out the city.

Just my 2c but I dont think we have seen enough of the Faith Militant getting support of the people in the show (aside from the 1 scene of the HS serving the weakest of the weak). And as such I struggle to see why after taking the queen, they wouldnt have retaliation against them

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Yes, it is painful to try and understand how the FM has been presented to us


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The faith militant have become very different on the show to those in the books, and while I'm generally ok with changes they still have to make sense and at the moment I'm not buying that this change works.

To me in the books the faith militant is a populous movement lead by a zealot leader. So far watching the show I've been getting more of a Zealous movement lead by a populous leader. We have seen the High Sparrow helping and tending to the poor. I am able to believe that he would have a large following. However with the way the faith militant is charging around, attacking markets and taverns and brothels (places where people go to get enjoyment... rich or poor) and seeing people beg the gold cloaks for help, I'm finding it hard to believe that the Faith militant could get enough support by the population.

The reason Tommen in the books cant attack the Sept is because of the love the small folk have for the new religious movement sweeping the country. But in the show I've seen very little reason that the people of Kings Landing wouldnt support a clearing out of those who have been causing torment through out the city.

Just my 2c but I dont think we have seen enough of the Faith Militant getting support of the people in the show (aside from the 1 scene of the HS serving the weakest of the weak). And as such I struggle to see why after taking the queen, they wouldnt have retaliation against them

I agree with most of what you said. Tommen really has no reason to attack the Sept in the books. He is a little kid who has no idea what is going on. So for Margaery's imprisonment he does nothing because Cersei is queen regent and he problably doesn't even know what happened or is lied to about it. Once Cersei is imprisoned Kevan has little reason to go to war to get her rescued and he is likely controlling Tommen at that point. Beyond that there are other pressing issues for the armies in the books. There is still fighting in the Riverlands and the Greyjoys are raiding the Tyrell lands as well as the siege of Dragonstone. In the show none of these are mentioned as threats so we have no idea what the Tyrell and Lannister armies are doing that would keep them from disarming the faith. Also the faith forgave a HUGE dept in exchange for being able to bear arms in the books and it was their suggestion. In the show Cersei suggested it with nothing directly asked for in return.

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Yeah, I have not been a fan of the sparrows in the show. In the book I loved them, because they were a movement of people who were fed up with the cruelty of the Wot5K, so they did something about it. In the show they are a bunch of crazed zealots, which I didn't get the impression of from the books at all. Devout, yes, but not the murder-anyone-in-a-brothel type of devout.


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I don't think that's how it is in the books. In fact, the Sparrows are almost as aggressive in the books as they are on the show. They pull a septon from a brothel and would have attacked Brienne's hedge knights if the High Sparrow didn't order them not to. Business and brothel owners complain to the crown because the sparrows are preaching in front of their shops, taking up space and scaring customers away. They pretty much come to King's Landing and just start squatting in front of the Great Sept. The Sparrows don't rely on public support. They are insulated by their faith.

No one wants to attack them because it would be a public relations nightmare. Not so much for the people but for the lords of the realm. No one wants to be seen turning against the faith. In addition, it would be a nightmare slaughter.

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The funny thing about the show is:



The High Sparrow is doing what Margaery did back in season 3 - looking after the poor. She was built up as a sort of Mother Theresa to the poor of KL - people applauded her, shouted her name - they loved her. So ... why has that stopped? Shouldn't she be the bloody heroine of the sparrows, or at least the HS? Instead, they are ready to arrest her for (unproven) perjury. The show really has no bloody clue what it's doing.


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We need a clear villain in this year's King's Landing storyline, seeing as Christianity and Catholicism have a pretty unpopular reputation and is quite often vilified in fiction, it was just too easy to turn the Faith into a bunch of murderous homophobic zealots, and get someone the audience will obviously root against.


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The Faith Militant in the books has a lot in common with the Dominicans and Franciscans. Whilst the Dominicans are commonly associated with the inquisition, both were attempts to reform aspects of early medieval monasticism, they were also populist movements that caused an upswell of piety amongst lay people.


They also have this fascinating correlation with the early capitalism, the beginnings of a middle class/wealth that was associated with trade rather than the feudal order*, whilst members of both these orders made significant contributions to science and philosophy.


They also seemed to have commissioned more cutting edge art.


All of the nuance or fascinating aspects of actual medieval movements that they could've drawn on are erased into the Faith ISIS.


Which is ridiculous because GRRM wrote AFFC and ADWD during the 2nd Iraq War. If the show runners had wanted to include the ISIS they could've used them in the Sons of the Harpy plotline (seriously ISIS even inslaves people, how could they miss that golden oppurtunity). It would've made them less cartoonish, but much more evil.


Instead they have a religion that is clearly based off the Roman Catholic Church (with it's drinking of wine during mass and liberal use of religious art and idols) and they have some how turn them into Fantasy ISIS.


Whilst turning the Sons of the Harpy (probably led by the Green Grace-a great role for an older, Moroccan actress which is where they are filming Meereen) that can actually mount arguments (as can ISIS, apparently since even well educated girls with the benefit of a western education elope with their fighters) against Valyrian incursions and Daenerys's cultural imperialism (the Sons of the Harpy is still more sympathetic than ISIS**) into something completely ridiculous and lame (with the silly masks worn everywhere)




*St Francis's parents were merchants rather than nobility.


**Which is an achievement, given that GRRM makes the Ghiscari people who, like metaphorical pigs, wallow in the mud of stupid evil.


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D&D have to show their viewers that arming the faith = bad. You can't expect them to think that viewers would already immediately grasp onto the obvious parallels with the Catholic church and their power struggles with the crown.

This is one more instance of D&D beating us over the head with their "subtlety".

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They need to show the High Sparrow's rise of power and also show how weak of a ruler Tommen is at the same time. Makes perfect sense the way the show portrays it.


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The way some of you speak about the Faith, it looks like they are angels in the books :dunno:


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They wrote themselves into a wall and to escape they took the path of least resistance.



They didn't bother to show the effects of the wars on Westeros except for maybe one scene during Arya/Sandor's journey where you can see burning homes out in the distance.



Without the war as a backdrop they have no way to introduce the faith being a populous movement other than to say "They're here because Joffrey was cruel to the people." Actually, even that wouldn't be possible because while they showed Joffrey being extremely sick and extremely cruel, it was only to other named characters and not the general populous of King's Landing.



So in comes D&D's version of events from their narrow minded perspective, because it's quite obvious to them the average viewer is too dumb to pick up anything not colored distinctly black or white. White wash it or make it evil as all hell, hey, it's for the viewers.

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Yeah I think they mention refugees to Kings Landing once in the entire series run so far (season 2 Janos Slynt talks about it at a small council meeting). and agreed that after season 2 there are no real effects of the war shown in Kings Landing. So having the sparrows show up feels fairly out of no where. I remember a couple people saying to me they didnt understand at all how Lancel got to such a fanatic when no idea of him being religious had been introduced before.

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I think the main difference is the build up. In the books there felt like more of a build up to the sparrows fanaticism. In the show it happened really quickly.

I don't think the show sparrows/faith is portrayed as 'evil' though. Fundamentalist, yes, as it was in the book - but still a reaction to corruption and the overall fall of Westeros, as it is in the books.

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The funny thing about the show is:

The High Sparrow is doing what Margaery did back in season 3 - looking after the poor. She was built up as a sort of Mother Theresa to the poor of KL - people applauded her, shouted her name - they loved her. So ... why has that stopped? Shouldn't she be the bloody heroine of the sparrows, or at least the HS? Instead, they are ready to arrest her for (unproven) perjury. The show really has no bloody clue what it's doing.

Third ideas: First, the High Sparrow is doing a power grasp, slowly beheading the government of the realm. I wouldn't put it past him to be trying to install a theocracy to rule the Seven Kingdom. He takes both Tyrell heirs as hostages and, once that front is somewhat clear, he'll seize Cersei. Who would rule while that happens? Kevan Lannister, who left the city and none without access to his mind can see as a regent? Tommen, who's a coward? Crap, for all we know, the HS one of Varys agents.

The other reason is far simpler: hostages to have leverage once the Tyrell army leaves Gendry's boat and returns to the show. He can still negotiate to release one of them and keep the other one as a warranty that he will not be executed. Or he can threaten to end the main Tyrell line.

Third idea: the HS remembers the Tyrells starved King's Landing before their charitable work, and is taking vengeance

I think the main difference is the build up. In the books there felt like more of a build up to the sparrows fanaticism. In the show it happened really quickly.

I don't think the show sparrows/faith is portrayed as 'evil' though. Fundamentalist, yes, as it was in the book - but still a reaction to corruption and the overall fall of Westeros, as it is in the books.

:agree:

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They need to show the High Sparrow's rise of power and also show how weak of a ruler Tommen is at the same time. Makes perfect sense the way the show portrays it.

Completely agree don't understand the complaining. Yet I usually don't since I absolutely adore this show

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