Astronomy of Planetos: The Solar Cycle and the Three Attempts to Forge Lightbringer

[The Missing Crannogman]

Thanks Mithras, his was going to be of my swords essay but I realized it would work well edited into my first essay, which is what I did for the updated version for Wordpress and reddit. I figured I'd take these bits and make an essay out of them. It's not ground breaking but it's cool George has recreated yet another cool concept of ancient man.

yes I think this night sun phase is a part of Lightbringer as well as Jon's rebirth. Definite Mithras stuff here.

Remember those passages woth Jon on the mountain? The fire disappears and reappears. I think that is another evidence that Neds sword may have been the original LB. It was extinguished after it was done being used. But it's surely going to light up again, maybe when Brienne stabs Stoneheart's stone heart. And yes I think it might be a good explanation for what Quaithe means about passing beneath the shadow. It's a piece of evidence that maybe Quaithe knows what she's about - although that doesn't speak to her intentions, necessarily. I think we may well need Quaithe's starry wisdom, but I wonder if this will be good news for Dany.

We have a date though for how old Ice was

“I am always proud of Bran,” Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

[LmL]

Outstanding essay once again, LML. Such a delight to read.

"Cressen stepped down into the dragon’s maw." Like Nissa Nissa and others in these stories, Cressen sacrificed himself voluntarily for others - sacrifice being a crucial element of the narrative.

:agree: :thumbsup:

[LmL]

We have a date though for how old Ice was

Two words: unreliable narrator. Cat is not privy to the secrets of House Stark.. or even Ned Stark. ;)

This is the only place we are given this information, unless I have missed something.

[LmL]

What, just one post, I read it in like 10 minutes, I didn't see that coming :D

Great work, really hammered the initial theory home.

Yeah it's good to keep you on your toes!

It was really just an outcropping of updating the first one. My wordpress has this stuff interwoven into essay #1, but I wanted to give it up here for folks to check out. Plus, the quotes are really nice to read.

[The Missing Crannogman]

Two words: unreliable narrator. Cat is not privy to the secrets of House Stark.. or even Ned Stark. ;)

This is the only place we are given this information, unless I have missed something.

Why wouldn't Cat be privy to that information? She'd been married to Ned for 15 years. I'm pretty sure she was fairly up to date on the family history, especially considering she had known that she was intended for a Stark from very early on in her life. Plus you can't just fake how old your family sword is. People can go back and check their history and see when the Starks first started carrying Ice, and 400 years ago isn't long at all. There'd be records.

Saying that Cat's unreliable here just seems like a way to conform your theory to your own ideas instead of conforming your theory to the text

[LmL]

If Ned didn't tell Cat about Jon, he may not have told her about LB - if he even knew. Remember the line Ned thanks to himself? "some secrets are better shared with no one," something like that.

The symbolism of Ned's sword as Lightbringer is there, no question. However, it is possible Ned's sword is only being used to represent Lightbringer symbolically, and or that it (Oathkeeper) will become the new LB. Any of these scenarios could explain the symbolism I am seeing here... But I have reason for thinking Ned's sword is specifically LB.

Many think the Last Hero is BtB, or the founder of house stark at least. What did he do with the dragon steel?

It's possible they only took it out of the crypts 400 years ago when Valyrian steel began appearing, when it wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb so badly. The Stark at that time may have created the false story, and subsequent Starks never knew. It could be a family secret. Hell, maybe Valyria accidentally sold Ned Lightbringer (ha ha, I doubt it). That's my thinking here anyway. I am going to present all my ideas about Ned's sword being Lb in a full essay pretty soon, so you can take a look and tell me if you have a different interpretation of the symbols. :)

What I am doing here is following symbols over the unreliable narrator. The symbols say Ned's sword is Lightbringer, in some fashion, and all we have to say it isn't - the only thing - is Cat's word here.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

I have a theory that some secret knowledge was passed down to the heir of House Stark through the generations, and that cycle was broken when Brandon and Rickard were killed at the same time. Ned never learned the dark secrets of the Kings of Winter.

I always thought that secret would be why there should always be a Stark in Winterfell, but perhaps it's about Ice. Tobho Mott does have trouble working color into the metal, which suggests that it's not regular Valyrian steel.

[LmL]

^^^ ding ding! That's right, it acts really freaking weird whe Tobho tires to color it. Three anomalies:

- Two distinct layers (materials) that do not seem to mix

- One layer takes the coloring, but darkens it

- One layer does not take any coloring, at all

The layer which took the coloring must be a kind of steel - Tobho was using spells specific to coloring steel (or at least metal). But, it's weird, sun drinking steel. Just like the million dragons meteors, and just like the stone of Asshai, both associated with Azor Ahai and the corruption of fire magic. I'm guessing this is steel infused with bloodstone magic in some way.

The second layer doesn't take any coloring - therefore, it is probably not metal. It must be dragonglass. The methods for coloring glass are totally different than coloring steel, so I'm guessing that's why it didn't take the coloring.

I think the Stark in Winterfell thing involves the sword, but also the Stark himself. If Ned's sword was LB, the it's been parked in the far north in the hands of ice warriors for 8,000 years. That seems like a safe place to keep a deadly fire sword. It's ready to use against the Others, but safe from dragon blooded people.

Say, don't the ghosts of the Kings of Winter reject Jon, saying the crypts aren't his place? Maybe because he's a dragon blooded person?

The layer

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Two words: unreliable narrator. Cat is not privy to the secrets of House Stark.. or even Ned Stark. ;)

This is the only place we are given this information, unless I have missed something.

I would stick to the original Ice, which was "lost" many many years ago, being Lightbringer.

Interesting thing...the Others have bones "pale as milkglass." Remind anyone of a certain sword said to have magical properties?

And wouldn't it be interesting if a certain magic sword is made from the bones of magic ice creatures, and another kind of magic sword could be made from the bones of magic fire creatures? Tyrion's second chapter in AGoT has some very interesting information about light-weight bones that are impervious to flame.

Also, I wanted to ask...off topic, but I'm sure you'll know...do the walls around Qarth correspond at all to the gemstone emperors of the Dawn Age? It occurred to me that the Wall in Westeros could, from a distance, look like opal or pearl, and I was wondering about other walls of the story world.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

^^^ ding ding! That's right, it acts really freaking weird whe Tobho tires to color it. Three anomalies:

- Two distinct layers (materials) that do not seem to mix

- One layer takes the coloring, but darkens it

- One layer does not take any coloring, at all

The layer which took the coloring must be a kind of steel - Tobho was using spells specific to coloring steel (or at least metal). But, it's weird, sun drinking steel. Just like the million dragons meteors, and just like the stone of Asshai, both associated with Azor Ahai and the corruption of fire magic. I'm guessing this is steel infused with bloodstone magic in some way.

The second layer doesn't take any coloring - therefore, it is probably not metal. It must be dragonglass. The methods for coloring glass are totally different than coloring steel, so I'm guessing that's why it didn't take the coloring.

I think the Stark in Winterfell thing involves the sword, but also the Stark himself. If Ned's sword was LB, the it's been parked in the far north in the hands of ice warriors for 8,000 years. That seems like a safe place to keep a deadly fire sword. It's ready to use against the Others, but safe from dragon blooded people.

Say, don't the ghosts of the Kings of Winter reject Jon, saying the crypts aren't his place? Maybe because he's a dragon blooded person?

The layer

Ah...maybe this actually IS the original Ice! And it's not plain old Valyrian steel, like Ned thinks. The number comes from Ned's belief that it couldn't be older than that because of the doom.

[LmL]

I do think the sword known as Dawn was originally Ice, but that's not Lightbringer. Lightbringer was a red sword of sunset, associated with blood and fire, while Dawn is an icy sword associated with the cold and pale dawn light. In a way, they were both "Lightbringer" swords, but Dawn was not (IMO) Azor Ahai's red fire sword.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I do think the sword known as Dawn was originally Ice, but that's not Lightbringer. Lightbringer was a red sword of sunset, associated with blood and fire, while Dawn is an icy sword associated with the cold and pale dawn light. In a way, they were both "Lightbringer" swords, but Dawn was not (IMO) Azor Ahai's red fire sword.

I wasn't thinking that Dawn is Lightbringer. I was thinking of dragonsteel coming from dragonbone. Lightbringer does not have to be made of dragonsteel, but they're going to need more than one magic sword and some obsidian to defeat the Others.

Is there any chance that the ancient Westerosi weapons are made of bronze because bronze won't shatter against the Other's swords as steel does? Or is it just that they didn't yet know how to make steel?

[Kingmonkey]

- Two distinct layers (materials) that do not seem to mix

Could be that 400 years ago, Lord Stark sent off a broken Ice to be reforged by the Valyrians? Thus one layer is Valyrian steel, the other whatever the original Ice was made from.

If so, Brienne is walking around with a sword forged three times.

[LordImp]

I think original Ice is made from pure ice. And about the dark secrets of the Stark's , i think that is that the Stark's are descendants of the Others. i agree with the reason Jon being rejected in the crypts , he has the blood of the enemy.

[LmL]

Thanks for all the great thoughts everyone. My mind is turning on all the sword stuff right now, so I'm reading everyone's thoughts and keeping them in mind. I have a bunch of notes which I am in the process of hammering into an essay. It's going to be a good one, I hope. :devil:

[LmL]

You know, I just realized some thing. Our three heads of the dragon - three Targaryens, not necessarily three dragon riders - are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. If you're still dragging your heels on the Thrion thing I don't know what to say except "dragon dreams." Anyway, the father was Aerys, a dragon, for Tyrion and Dany, and Rhaegar, another dragon, for Jon.

But consider the mothers - Joanna, a lion/sun bride, Rhaella, a dragon / fire bride, and Lyanna, - wolf / ice bride. That's the three forgings pattern - ice (water), lion, Nissa (fire moon wife of sun), just out of order.

[LordImp]

You know, I just realized some thing. Our three heads of the dragon - three Targaryens, not necessarily three dragon riders - are Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. If you're still dragging your heels on the Thrion thing I don't know what to say except "dragon dreams." Anyway, the father was Aerys, a dragon, for Tyrion and Dany, and Rhaegar, another dragon, for Jon.

But consider the mothers - Joanna, a lion/sun bride, Rhaella, a dragon / fire bride, and Lyanna, - wolf / ice bride. That's the three forgings pattern - ice (water), lion, Nissa (fire moon wife of sun), just out of order.

I really hope that is not true , i dont like the Tyrion is Aerys son theories. If a Lannister turns out to be Targ , i hope that is Cersei and Jaime.

[LmL]

Yeah, I meam, don't know what to say. Tyrion just has a TON of dragon dreams and pretending he's burning people to not be a Targ. Again, I trust the symbolism more than anything. And Tyrion is a Lion Dragon. But regardless, it's just an observation

[LordImp]

Yeah, I meam, don't know what to say. Tyrion just has a TON of dragon dreams and pretending he's burning people to not be a Targ. Again, I trust the symbolism more than anything. And Tyrion is a Lion Dragon. But regardless, it's just an observation

Thats true. I just dont want him to be a Targ , i want him to be Tywins son. And Genna said to Jaime that Tyrion is Tywins son. But i do think that Tyrion will be a dragonrider. But what do you think about the theories regarding Cersei and Jaime as Aerys bastards?

[LmL]

Think about what George might be telling us. Tyrion IS Tywin's son, because he was raised by him. THAT"s what is important. One of my best friends is adopted. His father is no less his father than yours or mine, let me tell you. I think this idea that Tyrion taking after Tywin has to be genetic is kind of missing this point. It's not something that automatically occurs to most people - I just happen to think about it because of my buddy. I think it's actually more interesting this way. Tywin left his legacy in Tyrion even thought hey aren't directly related (Joanna was Tywin's cousin or second cousin).