[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

[Lord Damian]

I disagree. This is worse but Joffrey's torments were not minor. Neither were Cerise's for that matter. Although Cerise's interactions with Sansa are really complicated in those episodes. There are times where she seems to show a glimmer of sympathy toward her, and others where she just seems really cruel. I'm thinking of the talk they had after her "flowering" and the dinner scene where Cersei flashed Sansa an evil look for not acknowledging some question from princess Myrcella.

The scene at court where Trant beats her while Joff is taunting her with a crossbow is still troubling to me if I'm honest. Seeing her fathers head on a spike is pretty brutal as well.

I think prior to KL, she was not only younger but also much more sheltered from the brutal realities of that world.

Side comment: There seems to be a population of book readers that have a lot of disdain for Sansa in the books and I think they tend to forget just how young she is. I read a lot of those comments and it seems to me that might make sense if we are talking about an adult but this is a barely pubescent child we're talking about.

We can agree to disagree. some wounds would never heal and they are being inflicted upon her every night. I cry for her character.

[Frey Kings]

I think Mel's sacrifices Shireen to save Jon's life...

[obsessedwithjon]

at this rate if anyone in walking dead said Promise me to someone then it will be a clue for R+:L=J ...just get over it

Before this season, I wouldn't have thought much of it, but the way they suddenly started putting multiple hints in from the first episode of this season, it's strange. The phrase hasn't really been used that much the rest of the series. I truly believe it is intentional. However, it could just be intentional to mess with readers, to add speculation like in the books. The shift to adding gratitous R+L=J hints in this season has been noticeable. The question is why.

(PS, my original post, which is 3 pages back by now, was that I think having both Sansa and Gilly desperately plead "Promise me" in the same episdoe, after all the other R+L=J teasers that have suddenly been appearing in this season, was a ridiculously obvious reference to the theory.)

Edited May 25, 2015 by obsessedwithjon

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

This. LF's gift is Olyvar recanting, saying Cersei paid him, threatened him, etc. Neatly paves the way for Loras and Margaery's release while keeping Cersei on track for the WOS and maintaining the HS's moral standards.

So, his gift is to convince Olyvar to admit to perjury after he's seen Marjery locked up for the same offense (at the same hearing)?

That would spring Marg and Loras immediately, but I'd like to see how LF convinces him to do this.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

We can agree to disagree. some wounds would never heal and they are being inflicted upon her every night. I cry for her character.

To be clear, I'm not saying KL "toughened her up" or that she was prepared for Ramsey's brutality. I'm saying that prior to KL, she had little to no concept of the brutality of men or specifically the brutality of men against women. After KL, different story.

[Lord Damian]

if/when ramsay dies she could raise her baby as a stark.

No, it will, if it happens and she births it, will always be a Bolton. She will always look upon that child as Ramsays. This is not a typical Westeros marriage where there may not be any attraction between lord and lady, wife and husband. This is Sansa Stark who is being raped and beated by Ramsay Snow Bolton, a devil incarnate. It would be another weakness in the plot if she did want to keep such a baby which would make it possible because D&D & Cogaman, are hatchett men when it comes to Sansa Stark's TV character.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Lord Damian

[Drogonthedread]

Before this season, I wouldn't have thought much of it, but the way they suddenly started putting multiple hints in from the first episode of this season, it's strange. The phrase hasn't really been used that much the rest of the series. I truly believe it is intentional. However, it could just be intentional to mess with readers, to add speculation like in the books. The shift to adding gratitous R+L=J hints in this season has been noticeable. The question is why.

the answer simple they are setting up for the jon's parentage reveal ...one must remember that show and books are different mediums ...if they had shown this scenes in the early seasons then they would have given away the mystery like GRRM did with inhis books droping all the clues in first book and we still havent gotten the reveal

and people claiming its becoming so obvious ...the Aemon scene when jon enters was obvious only for book readers not to the show watchers

is Promise me an important line yes it is to NED but he is dead and it is an simple word we use in daily life when we want something from other person

[Katjushka]

That scene made me 'think' aswell.

Sansa learned of Jon's position as lord commander for a reason, I'm sure of it. Will she write the letter? Or will she try to head to the wall after she escapes WF?

Sam giving Jon the dragonglass was there for a reason as well, can't wait for next week. I suppose Sam and Gilly will leave the wall before Jon gets back and it might be quite some time before they meet again. But I do really hope that they do meet again later on. And finally some Ghost-action on screen, maybe to remind us that yeah, Jon has that big wolf that protects him and his friends. I think we'll see more of that before the season's over.

Gah, I hate what Theon did but I do also think it would be "too easy" if he turned on Ramsay as soon as Sansa tells him to do so. He has been completely under Ramsays control for a time now, I suppose that's something you don't just bounce back from even if you logically know that you should turn on them.

I loved the Tyrion/Jorah scenes as I usually do. Especially Jorah's reaction to hearing Dany was there and Tyrion's straightforward march to Dany, huge risk to take.

[Lord Damian]

To be clear, I'm not saying KL "toughened her up" or that she was prepared for Ramsey's brutality. I'm saying that prior to KL, she had little to no concept of the brutality of men or specifically the brutality of men against women. After KL, different story.

i guess it would mean, KL was more psychological with a slap here and there. Ramsay takes it to a whole new level because it is centered around sexual abuse. A much more personal and humiliating abuse in many if not all ways.

[imp-ty]

Just rewatched. Dorne has magical properties apparently. Jaime's gilded hand has fingers twitching all over the place. Seen at least twice. Oops. :)

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

Just rewatched. Dorne has magical properties apparently. Jaime's gilded hand has fingers twitching all over the place. Seen at least twice. Oops. :)

That's awesome. He should move there.

[HouseHarrison]

Hey all! I'm once again here this week to tell you why this episode was again crap, rated PG-13 for mods!

-Dorne is still 1 small city in the intro. Did D&D really go this many episodes without a map?

-Thorne is first ranger despite never having been a ranger. BRAVO, D&D. I think they just apply ranks to named characters they actually know about without any thought to it.

-Theon is an awful Reek in this show. He knows he's Theon and just says Reek to not piss Ramsay off. He's not the insane wretch who literally thinks he's Reek and Theon is a separate person. And no, the changes he goes through in the books don't count because at this ep proved he's still at the point he's still loyal to Ramsay. Can we also talk about how shitty the Sansa-Theon dynamic is? Sansa just towers over Theon and orders him around and shakes him angrily. The mutual heartbreak, their bonding in misery, and the general atmosphere of tragedy that loomed over Theon and Jeyne in the books is gone. This feels so hollow as a replacement.

-Aemon just sort of dies after 5 minutes with no explanation. How underwhelming . We weren't even aware he was dying last episode. D&D treated this like something they forgot about then suddenly had to go through the motions about. And what he was even wrong with him anyway? WHO KNOWS! Plotitis. Do they really think including a fan-favorite quote would change how bad this was?

-Sam's arc has been completely ruined with this banal garbage. First they take away his journey to Oldtown, now they take away all the friends and respect hes made. Sam the Slayer is cool in the books because it's actually a title, not mockery.

-AND HE INSTANTLY KNOWS JON IS LORD COMMANDER TOO! D&D must have put skype in Westeros or something by this point because news travels that fast. Their world is so much smaller, and that ruins so much of it.

-Davos story is complete garbage still. Instead of being with based Manderly and going off to fight unicorns in Skagos we get him just throwing away lines to Stannis just so the actor can pay the bills. Why did D&D see fit to reduce Davos to zero importance while introducing such plot-vital characters as Missandei, Grey Worm, and Olly?

-THEY MENTION THE STORMCROWS. Okay, thinking about this gave me a headache. So they put Daario in charge of the Second Sons a few seasons back despite them being the Stormcrows and there being no Brown Ben Plumm. Yet now they mention the Stormcrows, who are in Westeros for some goddamn reason. What is the point of any of these changes? Do D&D think if they change enough shit people will think this story is theirs and not Gurm's? Well who would even WANT "this" train-wreck of a story to be theirs anyway?

-Stannis is just randomly horny in this scene and tries to hump Melisandre out of nowhere. WTF was up with this scene? Do they not understand's Stannis' character? Would he really just bang in the middle of a war council? After leaving him alone this season, D&D are back to character-assassinating Stannis.

-This Gilly rape thing. LEL. What is it with D&D and rape? Do they think it makes the series mature? Do they think a rape scene automatically makes everything uber-sophisticated? What hacks. They cut out Sam's Oldtown arc, Marwyn, Braavos, Salleras, and the Grand Maester Conspiracy for ANOTHER RAPE SCENE.

-Jon went to Hardholm apparently without Ghost. WHY. There was literally no explanation. On top of it being goddamn nonsensical for Jon to go in the first place, they put this icing on the cake.

-Now in their infinite wisdom, D&D seek to waste 5 minutes on another awkward sex scene. Reminder that this trite is what we're getting instead of glass candles, the Old Man of Oldtown, and Maester lore.

-WHERE IS THIS SLAVE AUCTION. So they got captured outside the Smoking Sea, yet now are seemingly right outside Meereen. Did they literally walk 1,000 miles or so? Wtf is going on?

-Tyrion's ADWD arc is again reduced from a descent into insanity with redemption via purity into LEL COMEDY XD! LOOK HE BEATS UP THE WHIP GUY XD! What garbage. At least Tyrion being mummer made sense in the books because he was with a dwarf who was ACTUALLY A MUMMER and they could perform. This excuse in the show for him to go with Jorah...I can't get my head around it? They think he's a good fighter? Nobody could, he's a dwarf and just stomped on that guy a bit. Why would a slaver waste gold and make him a pit fighter? Wtf is going on? Why is nobody in this show never making any sense?

-Olenna just strolls around inside ISIS (aka Show-Sparrows) HQ with no guards. Cersei does this later as well, and it's fucking stupid in the show. In the books not being guarded around them is passable because the High Sparrow is a legit priest and the Sparrows aren't insane gay-murderers...But holy crap in the show it makes NO SENSE. Everyone calls them fanatics in the show, but D&D just treat interactions with them like they're the book Sparrows. BRAVO.

-Where exactly in The Seven Pointed Star or The Faith does it say that being gay is this huge deal, to the point the High Septon would directly intervene in it? WHERE? Because it's never there in the books, gay is a taboo but not the be-all end-all. It wasn't even this bad in the IRL Middle Ages, people looked the other way. D&D trying to insert this contemporary fedora atheism gay rights stuff into the story is just ruining the mythology of the world.

-Olenna just points out the absurdity of these show trials. I like how D&D seem to constantly have characters yell about how none of this makes any sense, and someone else just shrugs it away like we're supposed to accept that as an excuse. This is some self-aware stupidity.

-Tommen just sits there with his mouth open and moans. He screams about how he can't do anything when he just sat there when Margy got arrested anyway. Why not just make this shit 8 years old again? Why did D&D bother aging him up again? So he could have a LEL XD sex scene with Margy? Because that literally is the only thing they've done with him that they couldn't do with book Tommen.

-I love this nonsensical show excuse for why Tommen can't meet with the High Sparrow. "Oh you shouldn't unsully yourself as King to meet with this fanatic". HE'S THE HIGH SEPTON, THE HIGH SEPTON IS A REGULAR FACE AT SMALL COUNCIL MEETINGS. WHY DO YOU FORGET STUFF YOU PUT IN THE PREVIOUS EPISODES D&D. D&D sometimes rarely encounter their logical inconsistencies and actually try to make an excuse for them, but these excuses NEVER make any sense.

-So Jaime just ran into the residence of the Martells and they put him in a nice hotel room. Then they address his concern and show him Mycrella? Wtf is the point of this? Lordly courtesy? Plot convenience? It makes no sense given he just led an armed raid into the Watergardens and pulled a sword on Doran's heir. On top of that given that the Martells are THIS cooperative with the Lannisters that they look the other way when they attack them, why was it necessary for Jaime to even go here instead of just send a Raven and ask them to give Mycrella back?

-THE CRINGE SNAKES RETURN. LEL CLAPPING EYE ROLLS AT BRONN XDDDDD! Freak you D&D, you know there's actually subtle legit non-cringe humor in the books because the writer isn't a complete hack? TRUE FACTS. Now, there's just so much wrong with this scene. First Tyene gets naked because D&D have to meet the boob quota again or something, why is she doing this? To say she's hot? Why does she want to prove this to a Lannister stooge? Do D&D know the Sand Snakes aren't like this in the books and they actually have class? Then somehow Tyene is able to calculate her boob flashing with the EXACT moment that this poison would start to take affect, so she can then give him the antidote? WHY?! WHY GIVE HIM THE ANTIDOTE?! HE JUST TRIED TO KILL YOU AND YOU WERE SHOWN AS PSYCHO MURDERERS IN PREVIOUS EPS. Why would you kill a messenger but spare someone who attacked you? WHY FLASH HIM. WHY DO ANY OF THIS? Are D&D just looking to give them something to do and think that showing some nudity makes the show mature?

-Can someone tell me what the fudge Littlefinger is doing running around in KL? He has a Vale to run and just gave up Sansa for no reason at all now he's just wandering aimlessly around KL.

-They called this slaver with Jorah and Tyrion Yezzan. So long grandiose yellow whale, so long any uniqueness and personality to this arc. Hello cliched slaver #1352352. And on top of that the Wise Masters trip all over themselves to desperately please Dany. Seeing her face real enemies who treated her like garbage was actually interesting, not more sycophant crap with Dany, which we see all the time.

-D&D have another apparently logical inconsistency going. So these fighting pits were supposed to be for only free men now who do it according to their own will. Yet Jorah and Tyrion were captured and are being forced into this as slaves. So wtf is going on? You could claim "well they lied and are having slaves pitfight but it's said in the show how many of the pit fighters want to fight and how high an honor it is so why use slaves? It made sense in the books for Tyrion and Penny to be a slave at least because they were brought in from Yunkai which didn't agree to any of this stuff, but in the show they completely surrendered.WHY DO D&D FORGET THEIR OWN PLOT.

-Jorah just waltzes through the slave fighter gate into the pit. WHY WAS IT UNLOCKED. WHY WOULD YOU UNLOCK YOUR SLAVE DOOR (and as we established, these people are slaves apparently).

-WHAT IS JORAH HOPING TO DO BY KILLING ALL THESE GUYS THEN REVEALING HIMSELF. Jorah is desperate in the books but at least he doesn't do completely nonsensical things. Why didn't he just free Tyrion then rush out with him as a gift? Why do this fighting crap? Does he think it'll impress her? He knows Dany well enough to know it won't. D&D just put this in here so we could see how "badass" Jorah is. SCREW LOGIC.

-Show Margy is so boring. There's an enigma too her in the books where you don't really know where she stands and if she's just faking the politeness or what. Here she just screams that people are mean names and throws crap at them.

-So D&D have an ancient chapel so old people dunno who built it in KL. Do D&D realize KL is a new city? Do they have understanding of this world they have so utterly ruined?

-How much do you wanna bet Cersei is gonna be charged with some banal crap like "you had sex with your brother" and not regicide, producing an illegitimate king, and killing the High Septon? HOW MUCH YOU WANNA BET.

That's all for now folks. I'll be back next week. Weekly reminder that the show has been garbage since season 2 and the books are better.

[Dragon_Rider]

So, his gift is to convince Olyvar to admit to perjury after he's seen Marjery locked up for the same offense (at the same hearing)?

That would spring Marg and Loras immediately, but I'd like to see how LF convinces him to do this.

The oath+testimony might be invalid if done under duress. If he can convince them he lied only because Cersei threatened him, then it's not really "perjury".

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

No, it will, if it happens and she births it, will always be a Bolton. She will always look upon that child as Ramsays. This is not a typical Westeros marriage where there may not be any attraction between lord and lady, wife and husband. This is Sansa Stark who is being raped and beated by Ramsay Snow Bolton, a devil incarnate. It would be another weakness in the plot if she did want to keep such a baby which would make it possible because D&D & Cogaman, are hatched men, especially when it comes to Sansa Stark's TV character.

One way or another, Sansa will not give birth to Ramsey's child.

[dndmn422]

Yes.

Half the scenes in the show aren't rape scenes (thank god).

I'm saying it's embarrassing that they couldn't let one episode pass without falling back on it as a plot device.

Rape is an oft-mentioned aspect of Westeros' openly patriarchal society. However, GRRM somehow manages to avoid using it to get Sam laid.

And again I'm going to say that nothing forced D&D's hand in the matter. There are already lots of good reasons to get Sam and Gilly out of Castle Black.

in the books the purpose for gilly leaving with Sam was because of the danger she was in between the wildlings and the NW. We complain when d&d don't stay true to the source material but here they basically have- Only difference is that instead of talking about it they provide some action to translate better on the screen.

I still take issue with your insinuation that d&d "fall back" on this type of plot device when in fact it is quite faithful to the books. Can you name any time they have done this where it wasn't in some way faithful to the books? I'm trying to think of one but can't...

[Katjushka]

I think Mel's sacrifices Shireen to save Jon's life...

Thinking it's Stannis shes saving but ends up resurrecting Jon instead.. I can see it going that way. She won't have to be back at the wall to do that, it's obvious that when Stannis rides to battle the women (Mel, Selyse and Shireen) are not going with him but staying further back instead so it's possible Melisandre will get word that Stannis died even though he didn't. And then she'll burn poor Shireen asking her lord to bring back the one who will lead the battle against the dead and Jon will open his eyes. End credits, see you next year. Or something, I don't believe in coincidences in this show and Mel did remind Stannis of being the chosen one tonight and it was said in the same conversation where she asked if she could burn Shireen.

[The Knight of Flours]

Hey all! I'm once again here this week to tell you why this episode was again crap, rated PG-13 for mods!

-AND HE INSTANTLY KNOWS JON IS LORD COMMANDER TOO! D&D must have put skype in Westeros or something by this point because news travels that fast. Their world is so much smaller, and that ruins so much of it.

Yeah that raven carrying the scroll to the Boltons that Jon had to sign as Lord Commander a few episodes back wouldn't have given em a clue, would it?

[The Knight of Flours]

dupe.. *sigh*

Edited May 25, 2015 by The Knight of Flours

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

The oath+testimony might be invalid if done under duress. If he can convince them he lied only because Cersei threatened him, then it's not really "perjury".

Maybe, but the High sparrow and the Faith Militant have demonstrated that they are humorless dicks when it comes to following the rules. Also, homophobia.

That reminds me, the exchange between Olenna and the HS was fantastic.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[Grail King]

:laugh: