[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

[Wolf in the Knight]

Barring all the Winterfell shit, this episode was pretty decent. Kind of reminded me of season one in that a lot of stuff went down in one go.

Also: Tyrion and Dany. That is all. D&D went and stole that moment from GRRM. It's gotta sting.

GRRM should finish the damn book if he doesn't want D&D to write the ending. I hope he lives long enough to finish whatever he has in mind...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also: Tyrion and Dany. That is all. D&D went and stole that moment from GRRM. It's gotta sting.

Have they? We were already warned by Martin herself this will happen in the next book and even how. The man chose to spoil himself rather than let this idiots do it. Amazing.

Nevertheless, considering this is, in a way, spoiler territory, I've realised how little it will affect me. Tyrion getting to Dany has been so rushed and so messy that even if they only met five minutes in the next book, I will be very excited to see how Martin develops their meeting as it will be the culmination of a longer road. It will be the same with the other storylines.

[hallam]

Why did we need to be reminded YET AGAIN that the NW is full of unsavory characters, or that they're not really trustworthy. It's not like that hasn't been made abundantly clear in the past, so the point is what exactly?

Also, I'm sure that attempted rape is just the thing to get a woman "in the mood." Wow, I feel dumber just typing that, great job there D&D.

Yes, we did need a reminder because Jon is going to get the stabby stabby in episode 10.

The point of the episode is that it is setting up Sam to go to OldsTown to become the new maester. Which is of course essential if Jon is going to be told to think before responding to the pink letter. Which is also why Sam will argue that his place is at the wall with Jon.

The point of showing that Gilly is at risk in Castle Black is to explain why Sam agrees to leave.

Tyene seducing Bronn had a purpose too, it was meant to force the poison to work faster. Had Bronn not had his blood pumping the poison would have taken much longer to start affecting him.

I also don't see the point in all the fuss about Sansa. Clearly she's taking another minor characters role and she's desperate, furthermore it would be cheap if Theon turned so easily. Now she knows she's alone and has to take things into her own hands and I'm sure the pay-off will be glorious when the season ends.

My only issue with the episode was the almost rape scene which was followed by the victim immediately bedding her "savior" after tending to his wounds. It simply rubbed me off the wrong way.

I agree with the first two. The point of almost killing Bronn was to show that the Sand Snakes are actually a force to be reckoned with. GRRM doesn't need to do this in the books because they aren't characters yet, they are proto-characters for book 6.

In a book you can have a person in every important scene and never give them a line of dialog. You can't do that in a TV show. If the viewers see a person on screen week after week, they want to know something about them. So D&D can't introduce characters slowly like GRRM does.

The sex was not gratuitous either, it was showing that these women are entirely willing to use their bodies to achieve their ends. Seducing Bronn to make his heart beat faster and spread the poison was one example. Tyene has made an important point to Bronn which may prove critical in a future fight where they may well end up on the same side.

On the Sansa thing, I am so fed up of complaints from the lemoncakes. Sansa's book arc sucks and the Jeyene Poole arc sucks. The show plot arc is much better.

On Gilly, it has been evident that she wants to jump on his bones since they left Craster's keep. This is not a new development. The only change is on Sam's part.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

Have they? We were already warned by Martin herself this will happen in the next book and even how. The man chose to spoil himself rather than let this idiots do it. Amazing.

Nevertheless, considering this is, in a way, spoiler territory, I've realised how little it will affect me. Tyrion getting to Dany has been so rushed and so messy that even if they only met five minutes in the next book, I will be very excited to see how Martin develops their meeting as it will be the culmination of a longer road. It will be the same with the other storylines.

Surely you can't really think that tryion post griff plot in ADwD was anything other than tiresome dreck? And that near misses are the lowest form of reader trolling [ followed by people in disguise/ not really dead]

Edited May 27, 2015 by God-Emperor of Yi Ti

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

On the Sansa thing, I am so fed up of complaints from the lemoncakes. Sansa's book arc sucks and the Jeyene Poole arc sucks. The show plot arc is much better.

They basically want her teleported from Westeros into a nice place where she can live out her life nicely.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Surely you can't really think that tryion post griff plot in ADwD was anything other than tiresome dreck? And that near misses are the lowest form of reader trolling [ followed by people in disguise/ not really dead]

Just because it looks a bad plot to you doesn't mean the plot is bad. I liked it. Many other like it. It serves a lot for Tyrion's development as a character and helped him to understand himself and rise himself fro the bottom he got himself into it. And even when it could have had messy elements, it's definitely better than Jorah and Tyrion's amazing bro-urney. "Look, Dany! I'm the gift to save you from your stupidity!". It's not my fault that D&D and his apologists have zero idea of what themes are and how they work.

[dndmn422]

Now to your second point, that this scene was a way to show Sam's character development. You have inadvertently and quite succinctly put your finger on the heart of the problem. The problem that I (and many, many, a growing number of show watchers) have is that rape is used as a character development device (often for OTHER PEOPLE than the victim of the rape) over and over again on this show. The reason so many people reacted so vociferously to Sansa's rape last episode, in addition to how of course it was horrible to watch and it didn't advance her OWN character development (as evidenced by this week where she is essentially back where she started in Season 1), was how we were focused on Theon's pain and suffering for most of it. This is an extremely common trope in films/tv/comics where a woman is put in peril to show a man's pain and to begin the man' journey of revenge/empowerment/whatever. And now again, the very next episode, we have an attempted rape where the woman is not only ready for sex immediately afterwards (and even Shae said in Season 2, "you should have known." Meaning Tyrion's fake wife. "A woman who's just escaped rape will not be interested in being in a man's bed an hour later.") but the whole scene was about SOMEONE ELSE'S character development. It's insulting, belittling to the trauma of rape and rape survivors, and probably the biggest crime of all for a fictional tv show, is lazy, LAZY writing.

To take issue with Sansa's situation is silly because it's basically lifted from the Jeyne scene in the book, where by the way we see it only through Theon's eyes and thoughts. So was that scene somehow developing Jeyne's character? Or is it OK if it happens to a secondary female character but a not true Stark?

If you are this critical of these types of scenes, do you give D&D credit for eliminated the Tysha story from the show? Because GRRM had her gang raped and abused by 50 men all just to further Tryion's plot. Instead D&D tried to put a real character (albeit one many viewers didn't like) of shae into the show who had real hopes, motives etc.

All of this does not even touch on the fact that the show and book never said it was trying to be a bastion for social progress nor is the source material that by a longshot. This is why so many take issue with the folks trying to complain about the moral direction or intentions of the show. All most viewers want is to be entertained, not be told by others what they should approve or disapprove of.

[dndmn422]

Just because it looks a bad plot to you doesn't mean the plot is bad. I liked it. Many other like it. It serves a lot for Tyrion's development as a character and helped him to understand himself and rise himself fro the bottom he got himself into it. And even when it could have had messy elements, it's definitely better than Jorah and Tyrion's amazing bro-urney. "Look, Dany! I'm the gift to save you from your stupidity!". It's not my fault that D&D and his apologists have zero idea of what themes are and how they work.

I agree I like the Tyrion travelogue BUT if you want that in the show you have to identify at least 1 1/2 hours of other material this season you are willing to have cut and replaced with the introduction/development of the JonCon, young griff and septa characters and all of their backstories. It is a lot harder to include that when its at the expense of other storylines.

Edited May 27, 2015 by dndmn422

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

I agree I like the Tyrion travelogue BUT if you want that in the show you have to identify at least 1 1/2 hours of other material this season you are willing to have cut and replaced with the introduction/development of the JonCon, young griff and septa characters and all of their backstories. It is a lot harder to include that when its at the expense of other storylines.

I'm not even talking about the griff part, which, although needing a bit of editing had good stuff in it. Its the dross that follows...

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

Oh look, the viewership's tendency to drop with each episode continues! Glad to know not all Unsullied are morons, as D&D regard them. A small rise should be expected next week though, with the end of the season near and the power of Tyene's boobs to buy a few men's attention.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree I like the Tyrion travelogue BUT if you want that in the show you have to identify at least 1 1/2 hours of other material this season you are willing to have cut and replaced with the introduction/development of the JonCon, young griff and septa characters and all of their backstories. It is a lot harder to include that when its at the expense of other storylines.

Yet, the guy is needed. I'm not saying it because I like him, or because I think he's like the best character ever (he's not), but at least, Jon as a character in Tyrion's storyline (before he was given a story of his own) served the purpose to remind Tyrion that, even though he killed his father, he can't escape him, hence that Tywin is not the one and only cause of his problems and woes. Jon served as a replacement father for Tyrion during his time in the Shy Maid, to the point that he was even considering to kill him as well. Yes, being around griff was unpleasant, but he was safe. And once he got himself in troubles again (due to his own actions), all he wanted was to Griff to rescue him. How is that not a parallel of his own relationship with his father?

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

I agree I like the Tyrion travelogue BUT if you want that in the show you have to identify at least 1 1/2 hours of other material this season you are willing to have cut and replaced with the introduction/development of the JonCon, young griff and septa characters and all of their backstories. It is a lot harder to include that when its at the expense of other storylines.

your point on timing is apposite too.

10 hours to play with, and what to do?

Arya, Wall and KL need every minute they got this season and have a conclusion to get to.

So n the one hand we then have Winterfell, Dorne, Meernen and Tyrion's journey as they all were.

Aganst in theory Winterfell with the book plot, Arianne plus the main Dorne plot, expanded version of Meeren with Yunkia attack, Brienne wandering,Jamie in Riverlands, Griffs & Tyrion, , [ i'll even leave out the greyjoys as they look Iike coming in in season 6]

Sansa- parked

Bran parked

Rickon- parked

Utterly preposterous to think that could all be slotted in in any meaningful way.

Edited May 27, 2015 by God-Emperor of Yi Ti

[The Shadow of the Shadew]

What will Tommen do? That's the question. They're taking quite a few liberties with his character (starting with him consummating his marriage), so I wonder if he won't have a more active role in her release.

Also, when does a certain large fellow make his appearance?

I think Tommen will confront HS and find out Cersei set Margeary up and tells Cersei to go fuck herself

[conceptualinertia]

Lancel has acted nothing but completely pious/indoctrinated from the beginning of the season. Even his first interaction with cersei screamed of a person who has been unburdened of his guilt and sins. You would think if he was still harboring the secret all this time the actor (Eugene Simon) would have made a conscious choice to act more conflicted or like he was holding something back.

Also, how does having Cersei imprisoned help Olenna free her grandchildren?

In Cersei's first interaction with Lancel this season Lancel acted as if Cersei was mostly innocent and it was Lancel that had dragged her to the dark side. Lancel was blaming himself. Later, when Lancel confronts LF, and LF mentions "the Queen" and "family," the camera lingers on Lancel's guilty/concerned expression.

I think that it provides the Sparrow someone even better to make an example of such that he will be satisfied with Margeary's and Loras' confession/repentance.

Maybe, and this just occurred to me now, LF was referring to Olyvar. Except this time Olyvar will say that Cersei paid him to lie about Loras.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

Yet, the guy is needed. I'm not saying it because I like him, or because I think he's like the best character ever (he's not), but at least, Jon as a character in Tyrion's storyline (before he was given a story of his own) served the purpose to remind Tyrion that, even though he killed his father, he can't escape him, hence that Tywin is not the one and only cause of his problems and woes. Jon served as a replacement father for Tyrion during his time in the Shy Maid, to the point that he was even considering to kill him as well. Yes, being around griff was unpleasant, but he was safe. And once he got himself in troubles again (due to his own actions), all he wanted was to Griff to rescue him. How is that not a parallel of his own relationship with his father?

So, your justification for the Griff plot is not the realm shattering implications if its true [ and it obviously isn't ]...but .. to help Tyrion work out his Daddy Issues?

not to be confused with Arianne's Daddy Issues ...

Well cheer up, looks like we're getting Tarly family therapy next year...

Edited May 27, 2015 by God-Emperor of Yi Ti

[WSmith84]

To copy from Deadlines? What Deadlines?'s post (#900):

Don't have Tyrion become the savior of KL only to have him fall from grace later.

Don't have Cat say "We'll kill them all" in season 1 only have her life fall apart and cut her throat later.

Don't have Robb kicking southron arse all over the river lands just to kill him off at a wedding.

Don't make Oberyn a charismatic, likable kick ass character just to crush his skull.

Don't capture Jamie Lannister just to cut him loose.

The entire series is filled with characters making progress, giving hope to the reader and then promptly stealing it back. The point I do agree with you on is LF's motives here, they either don't make sense or haven't been fully revealed.

All of those are not examples of what I'm talking about. It's Sansa's development as a character that is important, and putting her in the exact same situation only for her to handle it exactly the same way as before means she hasn't developed at all. Sansa's arc is meant to be about her making her own choices and developing intellectually. Forgive me, but having her idiotically choose to marry the son of the man who murdered her father is not empowering. Also, her revealing her only escape to Theon, acting all sullen to the Boltons, calling Ramsey a bastard to his face and wandering down a dark alley because some random stranger told her to are not signs that she has developed intellectually. And all of this came at the cost of Theon's arc and the Northern story.

Characters can exit bad situations only to enter new ones. But they need to grow as characters, or reveal new sides of themselves (Jaime, for example). Sansa hasn't developed at all in the show. They declared that she had, with her Darth Sansa outfit, but you actually have to show character growth. Tyrion is a victim of this. I don't actually think we've seen a growth in his character since S2 maybe.

these other issues can be explained by the limited time the show has. Unfortunately everything has to be dumbed down to squeeze over 2000 pages into ten hours. Sure they could do some things better but its not as easy as some here make it out to be.

That argument would be easier to accept if they didn't add pointless filler that does nothing. Greysandei, brothel scenes, Yara at the Dreadfort, Craster's Keep, Gilly's sexual assault, Jaime and Bronn vs SS, Brienne filler (hey, I thought they were supposed to cut this boring stuff)... They could have devoted time to these important plots, they just wasted it.

Also, their budget allocation seems way off to me. Those fancy european shots, 600 face models, multiple dragon sequences... They just seem wasteful.

[dndmn422]

In Cersei's first interaction with Lancel this season Lancel acted as if Cersei was mostly innocent and it was Lancel that had dragged her to the dark side. Lancel was blaming himself. Later, when Lancel confronts LF, and LF mentions "the Queen" and "family," the camera lingers on Lancel's guilty/concerned expression.

I think that it provides the Sparrow someone even better to make an example of such that he will be satisfied with Margeary's and Loras' confession/repentance.

Maybe, and this just occurred to me now, LF was referring to Olyvar. Except this time Olyvar will say that Cersei paid him to lie about Loras.

Ah fair enough, I kind of read it differently but maybe I'm way off (it wouldn't be the first time haha)

Still the words "handsome young man" and the way he said it just made it seem like he was referring to someone else imo.

[dndmn422]

All of those are not examples of what I'm talking about. It's Sansa's development as a character that is important, and putting her in the exact same situation only for her to handle it exactly the same way as before means she hasn't developed at all. Sansa's arc is meant to be about her making her own choices and developing intellectually. Forgive me, but having her idiotically choose to marry the son of the man who murdered her father is not empowering. Also, her revealing her only escape to Theon, acting all sullen to the Boltons, calling Ramsey a bastard to his face and wandering down a dark alley because some random stranger told her to are not signs that she has developed intellectually. And all of this came at the cost of Theon's arc and the Northern story.

Characters can exit bad situations only to enter new ones. But they need to grow as characters, or reveal new sides of themselves (Jaime, for example). Sansa hasn't developed at all in the show. They declared that she had, with her Darth Sansa outfit, but you actually have to show character growth. Tyrion is a victim of this. I don't actually think we've seen a growth in his character since S2 maybe.

That argument would be easier to accept if they didn't add pointless filler that does nothing. Greysandei, brothel scenes, Yara at the Dreadfort, Craster's Keep, Gilly's sexual assault, Jaime and Bronn vs SS, Brienne filler (hey, I thought they were supposed to cut this boring stuff)... They could have devoted time to these important plots, they just wasted it.

Also, their budget allocation seems way off to me. Those fancy european shots, 600 face models, multiple dragon sequences... They just seem wasteful.

Agree to disagree on Sansa, imo shes no less developed now than she was in the books following Baelish's lead in the Vale, but maybe that's just my recollection. In fact I think there are several characters in the books that haven't necessarily grown or developed at all. Also with the necessity of storyline condensing in mind, Sansa's Vale material by itself doesn't provide enough room for other characters. I suppose they could have just not had her at all this season a la Bran.

For sure there is/has been some filler that I don't like, but most of the material you bring up either

didn't actually take up that much screen time- Greyssandei for all its hate has maybe consumed a total of 10 minutes of screen time these past 2 seasons

or

actually advanced a character's storyline in some way- you refer to Brienne as filler but in the show she has been more active with much less material than her book version; Jamie/Bronn has been condensed into Dorne, we may not like it but it would be difficult to find time to do both Dorne and Jamie's riverlands escapades without sacrificing other material.)

IMO the only real egregius, nonsensical filler was the craster's material. It just plainly served little to no purpose at all.

Edited May 27, 2015 by dndmn422

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Tyrion is a victim of this. I don't actually think we've seen a growth in his character since S2 maybe.

I suppose it's because DD believe him to be perfect as it is. He is not. That's kinda the point of him being in the Sorrows and being slaved. He realises he's not what he is due to Tywin only but due to his own actions. That whatever abuse Tywin could have committed, he had the chance to make himself a better person and he did not. He shaped himself as Tywin, despite he hated him, and wasn't able to admit it. Now he admitted he always needed his father.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I suppose it's because DD believe him to be perfect as it is. He is not. That's kinda the point of him being in the Sorrows and being slaved. He realises he's not what he is due to Tywin only but due to his own actions. That whatever abuse Tywin could have committed, he had the chance to make himself a better person and he did not. He shaped himself as Tywin, despite he hated him, and wasn't able to admit it. Now he admitted he always needed his father.

Tyrion changes for about half of ADwD and then by the end of his book is back to his charming and witty self. He's in the dumps while he has nothing to occupy himself with and all the time in the world to self-pity. They went over it in the show, but briefly, since his story is much accelerated anyways. I would've liked a bit more self-exploration than self-pity but we have time for him to discuss these things now that they've got him where he needs to be.