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[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

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I just looke at it again on my HR Monitor this time and not HD TV and I go back to my first statement it's a corkscrew.

corkscrew > wine spicket > back to corkscrew.

But wasn't that a weird place to find a loose corkscrew?

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It was atop a cask with other casks in the vicinity. They are preparing for the siege. Could be fuel of some kind. I'm not a medieval warfare expert. But I think what matters is she has it, it's sharp enough to puncture and she'll use it in surprise on Ramsay to escape his clutches. I don't see Sansa actually killing him though.



Littlefinger still peddling flesh without the brothel. Olyvar to Olenna. Sweetrobin to Cersei. Sansa to the Boltons. He’s working his Pimp Daddy role.



The show tips its hand for the deaths of their set-up characters easily now – Olyvar, Olly, Myranda – all show-created characters that have plot advancing roles who will meet the fate of Ros.



Many struggling for power or looking for more are looking for support and friends. Seems like this season is about new alliances being made as old ones are forever broken.



Seems Sam is set up to be forced to leave Castle Black. It also seems to me that Gilly will eventually die and Sam will be responsible for little Sam.



Bronn and the Sand Snakes – typical tv show fare (with boobs). Nothing truly interesting, except I was happy to hear the end of The Dornishman’s Wife song. I’m a sucker for the inclusion of the songs.



Directly quoting the books is awesome too, which, as an adaptation, the show often fails at (begging me to wonder why GRRM thinks this is such a faithful adaptation). Hearing Maester Aemon’s “Egg, I dreamed I was old” was great. Thankfully they did not change it to be something so much better {sarcasm} for the show.



Ghost – is he staying to protect Sam and then leaving to be with Jon? Or no Ghost with Jon and therefore no warging? So far, only Bran wargs on the show. Of course, they fail to spend the money on the FX for the direwolves and focus it on the dragons. Ghost must have run away after his teeth baring, as he was nowhere in the moments after that.



Sansa calling Tommen a bastard. First I’ve seen that she actually knew he wasn’t a Baratheon. Maybe I missed her receiving the intel?



Boy / girl nomenclature – they are just terms for male / female. People use them all the time. I call myself a ‘girl’ sometimes and I’m far removed from childhood.


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Here is what I propose regarding the Sansa marries Ramsay Bolton and gets pregnant idea.

In Martin's original pitch letter to his agent, I believe Sansa was supposed to marry Joffrey and have his children. Despite the esculating conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters, Sansa ends up siding with her husband's family (Lannisters) because of her children. Obviously, Martin deserted this idea, but perhaps a seed of it remains. Perhaps Martin (and/or D&D) will let this particular character conflict and plot twist play out with Sansa's marriage to Ramsay Bolton. I fear Sansa may end up becoming Cersei II and will fight to protect her own child no matter what kind of monster he may become. This storyline would perserve the idea of one of the Stark children siding with their enemies because of having their children.

I am not saying that Sansa won't get rid of Roose, Walda, and Ramsay, but I think it is possible that she wouldn't welcome the appearance of Bran and Rickon with complete joy. After all, how would the North that is loyal to the Starks feel about the child of the Bolton betrayers? I would not be surprised if a major character conflict for Sansa is protecting and securing her child's best interest or standing up for the Starks and getting revenge on what has happened to them. It might not be in her child's best interest to make a huge issue of the fact that her child's paternal family was full of traitors and sick bastards.On the other hand, Sansa may want to distance her child from both the Bolton and the Stark legacies and create a new name and house for herself. The question is how will the blood tell in her child?

What sort of child would a Stark/Bolton be? The Starks have that "wild" wolf streak in them and the Boltons show a genetic propensity for being mean, cold, and twisted jerks. How many sins, how much evil is a mother's love able to cover? I don't think we will get to see Sansa's child (if it ever comes into being) reach adulthood, but I think we all know that he or she could make Joffrey and Ramsay look like pussycats. I could go down several diverging paths but this is one I thought of this morning that I didn't think had seen too much discussion.

This. Or a part of it. Sansa has been told from Cersei "you may not love the king but you will love his children" and from Margery "sons learn from their mothers and my son will learn a great deal". If they have been having this plot for her since season 2, I don't think these conversations were randomly put in there,

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But wasn't that a weird place to find a loose corkscrew?

Someone earlier posted that it is not exactly a corkscrew but a tool specifically for opening wooden barrels. I think it might have been found on top of a barrel, actually. The OP included the term but I can't recall it now.

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All this talk about what Sansa could do with the tool she found, have we considered whether she might use it to pick the lock to get out of her room rather than to attack Ramsay with it?


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It's not surprising that Sansa is still relying on others for everything. The moment she finds herself into a predicament, the only thing that she does is getting desperate, she despised Theon and now all of a sudden she gets herself trying to raise his spirits and make him go back to his old self so he can do what she wants. Little finger said that she should try to get Ramsay to her side, but she was never convinced of trying to do that, she is still unable to confront the reality, like she did when Joffrey was being mean to her, when she wed Tyrion's and even now, she continues to be unable to face the consequences. It's like Little finger knew that all along and could easily manipulate her, by being the one person that she can rely on.



I hope Sansa doesn't suddenly becomes able to manipulate Ramsay out of the blue, the man isn't naive in any way to get manipulated by a rookie in the game of life. Or that she gets pregnant for "plot reasons". I would be dissapointed with such storytelling artifices being used in Game of Thrones, since that's what I feel the show differs from the rest, authenticity I suppose is what directs Martin's story.



Alfie Allen's a very good actor.


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Shireen is not going to get burned.

Because if that would be the case, they would have to kill Davos before they could kill her(he is her protector), but we know "they"(Stannis troops) are not going to kill Davos because he is running with them across Stannis camp(trailer scene), which is burning.

My theory up until now has been that Stannis camp burning means Dragon Fire, and I still think that this is by far the most likeliest possibility - especially considering the recent revelation about Jon returning to the Wall in E9 as opposed to E10 - however there is yet another possibility;

Stannis refusing to sacrifice Shireen, and then Mel - either alone or with the help of Brienne - kills Stannis, and then uses his blood to create a big fire show in the camp, so she can escape to the Wall.

So we are going to see in E9 either Drogon destroying Stannis camp, or Mel destroying Stannis camp.

ah yes your drogon in the north theory... I'm still curious how he'll have time to get from the fighting pit to winter fell in the course of one episode lol. No offense but IMO it was ridiculous last week and it's just as ridiculous now. Your secondary theory while a little more plausible is still overly complicated- If there's one thing the show does not do it's overly complicate things. Instead they dumb them down.

But I applaud you for thinking outside the box.

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ah yes your drogon in the north theory... I'm still curious how he'll have time to get from the fighting pit to winter fell in the course of one episode lol. No offense but IMO it was ridiculous last week and it's just as ridiculous now. Your secondary theory while a little more plausible is still overly complicated- If there's one thing the show does not do it's overly complicate things. Instead they dumb them down.

But I applaud you for thinking outside the box.

You assume that Drogon will be in the Pit.

An assumption, not a fact.

But tell me, if neither Drogon, nor Mel are going to burn down Stannis camp, then who is?

And with what?

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It's not surprising that Sansa is still relying on others for everything. The moment she finds herself into a predicament, the only thing that she does is getting desperate, she despised Theon and now all of a sudden she gets herself trying to raise his spirits and make him go back to his old self so he can do what she wants. Little finger said that she should try to get Ramsay to her side, but she was never convinced of trying to do that, she is still unable to confront the reality, like she did when Joffrey was being mean to her, when she wed Tyrion's and even now, she continues to be unable to face the consequences. It's like Little finger knew that all along and could easily manipulate her, by being the one person that she can rely on.

I hope Sansa doesn't suddenly becomes able to manipulate Ramsay out of the blue, the man isn't naive in any way to get manipulated by a rookie in the game of life. Or that she gets pregnant for "plot reasons". I would be dissapointed with such storytelling artifices being used in Game of Thrones, since that's what I feel the show differs from the rest, authenticity I suppose is what directs Martin's story.

Alfie Allen's a very good actor.

Well this plot has made no sense from minute one, so why not go full-bore with it? Complete the trainwreck so to speak.

Edited by Arya442

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Don't think Theon will be escaping with Sansa, Brienne and Pod unless they drag him along as an offering for Stannis.

Will his "redemption" arc happen? Maybe through Bran. But don't see how after this episode.

Can see Sansa murdering or maiming Ramsey enough to escape.

Battle of Ice I guess is being saved for next season.

When the Hell is it going to come out that Tyrion knows more about Dragons than anyone and that's why he's valuable to Daenerys?

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I have to say, just based on my observations of reviews, Unsullied comments, etc., the changes made to the Winterfell storyline have not done Theon any favours. In the books this was where he really started to reclaim audience sympathy, but the general tenor of the comments on him in the last few episodes has tended far more toward deep contempt. Given that he's a Stockholm'd victim, this is really not fair, but it seems like much of the audience views him primarily as the guy who is standing around and not helping Sansa, who in turn is the focal point for audience empathy in the story. Theon selling out Sansa and getting the old lady killed this week certainly didn't help.


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It's not surprising that Sansa is still relying on others for everything. The moment she finds herself into a predicament, the only thing that she does is getting desperate, she despised Theon and now all of a sudden she gets herself trying to raise his spirits and make him go back to his old self so he can do what she wants. Little finger said that she should try to get Ramsay to her side, but she was never convinced of trying to do that, she is still unable to confront the reality, like she did when Joffrey was being mean to her, when she wed Tyrion's and even now, she continues to be unable to face the consequences. It's like Little finger knew that all along and could easily manipulate her, by being the one person that she can rely on.

I hope Sansa doesn't suddenly becomes able to manipulate Ramsay out of the blue, the man isn't naive in any way to get manipulated by a rookie in the game of life. Or that she gets pregnant for "plot reasons". I would be dissapointed with such storytelling artifices being used in Game of Thrones, since that's what I feel the show differs from the rest, authenticity I suppose is what directs Martin's story.

Alfie Allen's a very good actor.

While a lot of GOT actors have been recognized for their performances, Alfie Allen is consistently underrated as Theon/Reek IMO.

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While a lot of GOT actors have been recognized for their performances, Alfie Allen is consistently underrated as Theon/Reek IMO.

People need to remember him as "Theon" and then come back to how he is now as "Reek". He's doing a good job at the very least, he looks very convincing as Reek, he nailed the mannerisms of the ever fearful, traumatized and broken Theon.

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I have to say, just based on my observations of reviews, Unsullied comments, etc., the changes made to the Winterfell storyline have not done Theon any favours. In the books this was where he really started to reclaim audience sympathy, but the general tenor of the comments on him in the last few episodes has tended far more toward deep contempt. Given that he's a Stockholm'd victim, this is really not fair, but it seems like much of the audience views him primarily as the guy who is standing around and not helping Sansa, who in turn is the focal point for audience empathy in the story. Theon selling out Sansa and getting the old lady killed this week certainly didn't help.

Alfie Allen is doing a tremendous job, but part of why the character is troubling this season is the same fundamental problem with adapting the books to a show - no inner monologue. We're not inside Theon's mind for his slow, painful reclaiming of his old identity. We have to rely on Alfie Allen's body language, since his lines are basically compromised of begging Sansa not to do things that will get him punished.

It's tough to convey what kind of mental state he's in on screen. A lot of unsullied don't understand why he won't kill Ramsay or just commit suicide, but none of us can imagine going through what Ramsay did to him.

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I have to say, just based on my observations of reviews, Unsullied comments, etc., the changes made to the Winterfell storyline have not done Theon any favours. In the books this was where he really started to reclaim audience sympathy, but the general tenor of the comments on him in the last few episodes has tended far more toward deep contempt. Given that he's a Stockholm'd victim, this is really not fair, but it seems like much of the audience views him primarily as the guy who is standing around and not helping Sansa, who in turn is the focal point for audience empathy in the story. Theon selling out Sansa and getting the old lady killed this week certainly didn't help.

Doing the Winterfell scenes anything like ADWD depicts would be an entire season unto itself. They are condensing an incredible amount of material into just ten hours of TV. I haven't agreed with all of their editorial decisions, but all in all, I'm enjoying the season.

Snapping Theon out of his Reek persona needs to take time or it will seem incredibly contrived. Also, anything other than what we saw last night would have a segment of the fandom howling "See?!? Those bastards are torturing Sansa for the sake of Theon's character arc!!!" Theon is always going to be a figure of simultaneous sympathy and hatred.

That reminds me: Mentioned this once before but I think it got lost in the flurry of comments last night.

On the previous show thread there were several commenters that were making claims that Sansa's character would be so mishandled that within a few episodes she'd forget her wedding night trauma and by the end of the season she'd live "happily ever after". There were others who were screaming that they had in fact turned her into Jeyne and she's just there to develop Theon's character.

After last night, does anyone think this is still the case?

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I wonder at times if people hate the show so much, why do they tune in every week and then spend their time breaking down every detail and why it's inferior. If you dislike it that much, just stop. Sure the show has it's flaws, but it's still entertaining me. Heck, I'm just glad we're finally getting new material after all this time even if it's like this.

I find it bizarre the way that people who complained about the 'unnecessary' scene in episode 1 and the 'unbelievable' Sansa plotline are off telling us what else is 'unnecessary' and 'unbelievable' after their earlier predicitions crashed and burned.

Why is everyone so against Shireen people being killed? There are even people who will stop watching the show???

Why are people so sure that what they expect will happen will happen?

The most likely explanation to every potential plot hole is that the person complaining about it hasn't anticipated the resolution. But some folk are so wrapped up in their belief in one particular fixed theory of how the plot develops, they whine and moan when they see evidence that they are wrong.

Really, some folk need to consider the possibility that either the showrunners haven't given us all the clues yet or that they have given enough clues and they are just not clever enough to work it out.

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While a lot of GOT actors have been recognized for their performances, Alfie Allen is consistently underrated as Theon/Reek IMO.

Not in the press I've read. Alfie is always sighted for his excellence.

Have to say, have no idea where Reek's arc is going to go.

We do know Tycho is showing up this season....but....?

Off ep topic:

Since Robin Arryn hasn't been killed and doesn't appear he won't be be--unless next season--can we assume he is LF's son?

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