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[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

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I think this episode's Sam and Gilly parts foreshadows "promise me Ned" event between Lyanna and Ned. Sam has a kinda fighted for Gilly like Ned. However, Sam is in the bed of blood :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT33opIF0zEat 1:11 Gilly said "promise me, whatever happens to me you will care of little Sam".



I think D&D put this conversation for R+L=J. Sorry if anyone has mentioned about this. I don't have enough time to read all the posts :)


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I skimmed the pages but didn't see the answer so far. It's bugging me what LF's "gift" was for Lady O. He says a handsome young man. Then we see that Lancel has confessed his sins with Cersei and some of her own. You'd think that LF was referring to Lancel...but how does THAT make any sense? Lancel would have already confessed his sins to the FM when he joined, no way is this a surprise. The high sparrow acted like Lancel's atonement was already signed, sealed and delivered some time ago. He's not in a jail cell so he must have already made his peace with the seven. So I'm thinking LF's gift to Lady O is another handsome young man.



Maybe the guy in the brothel that is set to testify against Loras in the actual trial will turn up dead shortly, and there won't BE any witness to testify, and Marg and loras will walk? And Cersei will now be the only one on trial? I can see them doing away with the dual trials of the books to streamline the show. They barely have room for one trial anyway with 3 episodes left. Marge can live or die in some other fashion to have the same end result in the show from the books because the whole plotline has always BEEN about Cersei. I suspect Loras and Marge are going to be freed in the next episode, and be able to freely enjoy watching Cersei's problems unfold.


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I think this episode's Sam and Gilly parts foreshadows "promise me Ned" event between Lyanna and Ned. Sam has a kinda fighted for Gilly like Ned. However, Sam is in the bed of blood :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT33opIF0zEat 1:11 Gilly said "promise me, whatever happens to me you will care of little Sam".

I think D&D put this conversation for R+L=J. Sorry if anyone has mentioned about this. I don't have enough time to read all the posts :)

So you think Sam gave birth? Astonishing.

Like all the clues being given in the series, this is almost certainly a deliberate reference to the book scenes. But that doesn't make them proof of any particular theory.

All we have been told in the show is that:

* Jon has inherited 'his father's' honor and devotion to duty.

* It was not Ned's way to father a bastard off a servant girl.

* Sam in a bed of blood after a sword/fist fight.

Of course these are consistent with R+L = J. But they are consistent with pretty much every other theory of Jon's birth apart from Wylda. From the show point of view, its only Jon's father that matters unless he is going to make a play for the iron throne itself.

It is quite possible that we don't ever get a reveal of Jon's mother in the show. D&D could keep the backstory reveal for a movie. Lets say the book is published the week before the start of season 6 and D&D wrap up after season 7. They then take a year off and then spend a couple of years making a movie. That could come out round about the same time as books 7.

Have we been told anything about Elia being sick in the show? I think we might have had a comment in season 1 about him looking like a Stark from Benjen but that's it.

If you are looking for proof that R+L=J then that's a mistake to start with. But in any case any evidence in the books has to be considered separately from the show. There really is no in-show evidence for Jon's parentage and that's not surprising as it isn't set up as a whodunit.

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If you are looking for proof that R+L=J then that's a mistake to start with. But in any case any evidence in the books has to be considered separately from the show. There really is no in-show evidence for Jon's parentage and that's not surprising as it isn't set up as a whodunit.

Do you really think we had Sansa and LF discussing Lyanna Stark for any other reason other than to explain Jon's parentage? Or even all that talk of Rhaegar earlier and those little cuts to Jon whenever a Targaryen is mentioned (Like Aemon's lonely Targ line)?

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HBO has stated they do not want a movie. They are a pay channel for their subscribers and would feel like they ripped of the customers if they did a movie to end it. They have to remain true all of to their paying customers, not just fans of one show.



I would be pissed off as a HBO subscriber if AGOT, and True detective and The Sopranos all ended in theatres instead of on HBO where it was built. If they want to do a Roberts rebellion prequel, or show it on big screen two weeks after, so be it, but do not end the story there.


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So you think Sam gave birth? Astonishing.

Like all the clues being given in the series, this is almost certainly a deliberate reference to the book scenes. But that doesn't make them proof of any particular theory.

All we have been told in the show is that:

* Jon has inherited 'his father's' honor and devotion to duty.

* It was not Ned's way to father a bastard off a servant girl.

* Sam in a bed of blood after a sword/fist fight.

Of course these are consistent with R+L = J. But they are consistent with pretty much every other theory of Jon's birth apart from Wylda. From the show point of view, its only Jon's father that matters unless he is going to make a play for the iron throne itself.

It is quite possible that we don't ever get a reveal of Jon's mother in the show. D&D could keep the backstory reveal for a movie. Lets say the book is published the week before the start of season 6 and D&D wrap up after season 7. They then take a year off and then spend a couple of years making a movie. That could come out round about the same time as books 7.

Have we been told anything about Elia being sick in the show? I think we might have had a comment in season 1 about him looking like a Stark from Benjen but that's it.

If you are looking for proof that R+L=J then that's a mistake to start with. But in any case any evidence in the books has to be considered separately from the show. There really is no in-show evidence for Jon's parentage and that's not surprising as it isn't set up as a whodunit.

Sure, i don't think Sam gave birth but he was also in blood. If there is not enough hint in the show for R+L=J why Sansa and LF talked about the "kidnapping of Lyanna" and Master Aemon's speech with Jon. The roles changed in Sam and Gilly's scene. The woman stands and asks for the promise. I think this is a good contraversion of the hint for "promise me Ned" memory.

Do you really think we had Sansa and LF discussing Lyanna Stark for any other reason other than to explain Jon's parentage? Or even all that talk of Rhaegar earlier and those little cuts to Jon whenever a Targaryen is mentioned (Like Aemon's lonely Targ line)?

I agree with you :) D&D try to prepera show watchers for Jon's parentage. I don't think they will wait for showing real Jon's parents in the movie.

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HBO has stated they do not want a movie. They are a pay channel for their subscribers and would feel like they ripped of the customers if they did a movie to end it. They have to remain true all of to their paying customers, not just fans of one show.

I would be pissed off as a HBO subscriber if AGOT, and True detective and The Sopranos all ended in theatres instead of on HBO where it was built. If they want to do a Roberts rebellion prequel, or show it on big screen two weeks after, so be it, but do not end the story there.

Also it will be useless showing R+L=J in a movie after all the seasons finished.

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A sacrifice to the lord of light. "There is power in King's blood."

Yeah, that's an awfully obvious thread to just leave hanging. That situation will come to a head soon I think.

I'm still holding out hope that SHOW! Stannis will decide that there's also power in Queen's blood...or that for SHOW! reasons, Selyse magically has King's blood too.

I'd like that deviation.

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No One expects the Spanish Inquisition

I'm fetching the comfy chair as we speak. :cool4:

So I saw the episode yesterday and I wanted to share my opinion:

- Some Tyrell/LF scheming. Yeah, that had to come. First time we hear anyone admitting the murder on Joffrey didn’t we?! (Can’t recall that we ever heard anyone say it out loud in the books, only LF pretty much telling it us, just not literally..)

Not exactly. Olenna basically admitted as much to Margaery, after the Purple Wedding.

Yeah, I wished they showed less progresson on his torturing and more on his mentally disfigurement. His physical abuse was just a way to break him. We only hear say Ramsay say that he ‘broke Theon’, but this was the first episode where he showed the fact that his mind is rather f*cked up.

You don't think that refusing to be rescued from the Dreadfort by his own sister showed how "messed up" Theon is? :huh:

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Count me as one of those who hopes the High Sparrow knew about Cersei and Lancel and waited until the right moment to snare her.

While the offer LF made to Olenna was vague, I think it was Sweet Robin and the troops of the Vale. In order for LF to complete his rise, the Lannisters have to fall completely. The only reason it might have been Gendry would be for the same reason Ned Stark went looking for him - the physical description of Robert's true children. The book on the HS's alter looked suspiciously like the book Ned read as well as his predecessor.

I think that many people here are misunderstanding (or reading too much into) what LF was offering. LF gave Olyvar's confession/testimony to Cersei in order to entrap Loras and Margeary. He was now offering Lancel's confession/testimony to Olenna in order to entrap Cersei.

Although Lancel had "repented" he had not confessed all of his sins, he had not told the HS that he had slept with Cersei (LF made Lancel feel guilty about this when Lancel was blocking his way when LF first returned to Kings Landing). LF knew that he could guilt Lancel into confessing (just as he could pay Olyvar into confessing). LF is manipulating Cersei, Olenna, and the High Sparrow.

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if I was one of those soldiers in Stannis' army, I'd be wondering why I and my companions are freezing to death, losing horses constantly, when we have a fire witch amongst us. Maybe that's why the Storm Crows left.

Maybe her power is dwindling as she gets further away from the wall.

If I am not mistaken she made a comment (last season? or was that the books) about her power being stronger at the wall. Maybe she is following the wrong king.

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I skimmed the pages but didn't see the answer so far. It's bugging me what LF's "gift" was for Lady O. He says a handsome young man. Then we see that Lancel has confessed his sins with Cersei and some of her own. You'd think that LF was referring to Lancel...but how does THAT make any sense? Lancel would have already confessed his sins to the FM when he joined, no way is this a surprise. The high sparrow acted like Lancel's atonement was already signed, sealed and delivered some time ago. He's not in a jail cell so he must have already made his peace with the seven. So I'm thinking LF's gift to Lady O is another handsome young man.

I don't think Lancel had yet confessed his sin of sleeping with Cersei and helping to kill Robert, at least not in the specifics of whom he had slept with and whom he had help kill. It took LF's convincing to have Lancel go the extra mile (he still cares for Cersei).

Edited by conceptualinertia

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I skimmed the pages but didn't see the answer so far. It's bugging me what LF's "gift" was for Lady O. He says a handsome young man. Then we see that Lancel has confessed his sins with Cersei and some of her own. You'd think that LF was referring to Lancel...but how does THAT make any sense? Lancel would have already confessed his sins to the FM when he joined, no way is this a surprise. The high sparrow acted like Lancel's atonement was already signed, sealed and delivered some time ago. He's not in a jail cell so he must have already made his peace with the seven. So I'm thinking LF's gift to Lady O is another handsome young man.

Maybe the guy in the brothel that is set to testify against Loras in the actual trial will turn up dead shortly, and there won't BE any witness to testify, and Marg and loras will walk? And Cersei will now be the only one on trial? I can see them doing away with the dual trials of the books to streamline the show. They barely have room for one trial anyway with 3 episodes left. Marge can live or die in some other fashion to have the same end result in the show from the books because the whole plotline has always BEEN about Cersei. I suspect Loras and Marge are going to be freed in the next episode, and be able to freely enjoy watching Cersei's problems unfold.

yeah there's been some debate as to what he was referring to, but imo it was NOT lancel. Its clear to me that lancel confessed all when he first entered the faith/got the star on his forehead. I think it was the first episode of the season where he briefly speaks with Cersei and Kevan is there- he seemed to indicate he was already free from his "burdens" then, which would play well into olenna's intuition about the high septon this week- if he knew all along about cersei's misdeeds then he's been playing her like a fiddle this whole time.

It could be referring to Olyvar (the brothel snitch) and they somehow turn/disappear him, but im not sure if the HS would take that as a sign of the seven's mercy or guilt so i dont think that to be likely.

Others have brought up Gendry but.... just not going to go there lol.

Why would he use the term "handsome young man"- to me it signifies that hes try to prop up this person's eligibility as a suitor. to me that screams sweetrobin and that was my first intuition.

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I don't think Lancel had yet confessed his sin of sleeping with Cersei and helping to kill Robert, at least not in the specifics of whom he had slept with and whom he had help kill. It took LF's convincing to have Lancel go the extra mile (he still cares for Cersei).

Lancel has acted nothing but completely pious/indoctrinated from the beginning of the season. Even his first interaction with cersei screamed of a person who has been unburdened of his guilt and sins. You would think if he was still harboring the secret all this time the actor (Eugene Simon) would have made a conscious choice to act more conflicted or like he was holding something back.

Also, how does having Cersei imprisoned help Olenna free her grandchildren?

Edited by dndmn422

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I just posted this in the other thread but did anyone think there was a hint of sarcasm in Littlefinger's voice when mentioning the "handsome young man" (kind of a wink wink)? Made me think he could be giving them The Hound.

Edited by Tinker Tanner

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So you think Sam gave birth? Astonishing.

Like all the clues being given in the series, this is almost certainly a deliberate reference to the book scenes. But that doesn't make them proof of any particular theory.

All we have been told in the show is that:

* Jon has inherited 'his father's' honor and devotion to duty.

* It was not Ned's way to father a bastard off a servant girl.

* Sam in a bed of blood after a sword/fist fight.

Of course these are consistent with R+L = J. But they are consistent with pretty much every other theory of Jon's birth apart from Wylda. From the show point of view, its only Jon's father that matters unless he is going to make a play for the iron throne itself.

It is quite possible that we don't ever get a reveal of Jon's mother in the show. D&D could keep the backstory reveal for a movie. Lets say the book is published the week before the start of season 6 and D&D wrap up after season 7. They then take a year off and then spend a couple of years making a movie. That could come out round about the same time as books 7.

Have we been told anything about Elia being sick in the show? I think we might have had a comment in season 1 about him looking like a Stark from Benjen but that's it.

If you are looking for proof that R+L=J then that's a mistake to start with. But in any case any evidence in the books has to be considered separately from the show. There really is no in-show evidence for Jon's parentage and that's not surprising as it isn't set up as a whodunit.

100% they will reveal R+L=J in the show. LF and Sansa discussing Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ser Berristan telling Dany about Rhaegar. Stannis expressing he didn't believe Jon was actually Ned's. Maester Aemon talking about Targaryen's then the camera pans right to Jon. There is the in-show evidence. All just from this season. They are maybe over doing it. It's being layed in quite thick.

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100% they will reveal R+L=J in the show. LF and Sansa discussing Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ser Berristan telling Dany about Rhaegar. Stannis expressing he didn't believe Jon was actually Ned's. Maester Aemon talking about Targaryen's then the camera pans right to Jon. There is the in-show evidence. All just from this season. They are maybe over doing it. It's being layed in quite thick.

for book readers and those in the know sure, but for casual unsullied I don't think this is the case- the unsullied I know haven't come close to connecting the dots as far as I can tell.

To be fair, I went through the first three books and didn't have a clue about r+l= j... now when I go back and reread it seems painfully obvious when presented with the clues.

Also remember that a lot of the clues reader's get in the books are via inner monologues, dreams and memories spread across several characters. The show doesn't have the benefit of that, everything needs to be presented in either dialogue or action.

Edited by dndmn422

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nothing forced D&D or GRRM to create any of the atrocities that have happened so far, but they did because it makes for an interesting story. If you dont like it you might as well watch narnia, because bad stuff is gonna keep happening to good people until the very end of the story

If you find using a sexual assault on Gilly as a means to get Sam laid "interesting," then I guess that's your opinion.

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