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[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

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To take issue with Sansa's situation is silly because it's basically lifted from the Jeyne scene in the book, where by the way we see it only through Theon's eyes and thoughts. So was that scene somehow developing Jeyne's character? Or is it OK if it happens to a secondary female character but a not true Stark?

If you are this critical of these types of scenes, do you give D&D credit for eliminated the Tysha story from the show? Because GRRM had her gang raped and abused by 50 men all just to further Tryion's plot. Instead D&D tried to put a real character (albeit one many viewers didn't like) of shae into the show who had real hopes, motives etc.

All of this does not even touch on the fact that the show and book never said it was trying to be a bastion for social progress nor is the source material that by a longshot. This is why so many take issue with the folks trying to complain about the moral direction or intentions of the show. All most viewers want is to be entertained, not be told by others what they should approve or disapprove of.

I watch the show. I've read all the books. I will continue to watch the show til the bitter end (even though it's more and more of a slog this season). I watch it for entertainment - the swords, sex, and political machinations. It's not high art or supposed to be held to any sort of moral imperative. But, I suppose the difference between me and the "most viewers" you cite is that I'm not entertained by rape as a terribly overused, catchall mode of character development. It's lazy writing and makes for sub-quality, boring, and offensive television.

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I suppose it's because DD believe him to be perfect as it is. He is not. That's kinda the point of him being in the Sorrows and being slaved. He realises he's not what he is due to Tywin only but due to his own actions. That whatever abuse Tywin could have committed, he had the chance to make himself a better person and he did not. He shaped himself as Tywin, despite he hated him, and wasn't able to admit it. Now he admitted he always needed his father.

Agreed. Whilst Tyrion's stuff in ADWD could do with some heavy trimming, it is still good character building. I've started thinking recently that trying to get through all that Feast and Dance material in one season was too ambitious. I think it could have done with two seasons or a season and a half. They want to get to the plot points without doing the character building, and it's just not working in my opinion. The show currently feels both slow and rushed.

Edit: Because, despite many people disliking Feast and Dance, they both have a lot of good stuff in them.

Edited by WSmith84

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I watch the show. I've read all the books. I will continue to watch the show til the bitter end (even though it's more and more of a slog this season). I watch it for entertainment - the swords, sex, and political machinations. It's not high art or supposed to be held to any sort of moral imperative. But, I suppose the difference between me and the "most viewers" you cite is that I'm not entertained by rape as a terribly overused, catchall mode of character development. It's lazy writing and makes for sub-quality, boring, and offensive television.

As if Jeyne's rape was not used to develop Theon's saving of Jeyne, which is even worse when you think about it.

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Agreed. Whilst Tyrion's stuff in ADWD could do with some heavy trimming, it is still good character building. I've started thinking recently that trying to get through all that Feast and Dance material in one season was too ambitious. I think it could have done with two seasons or a season and a half. They want to get to the plot points without doing the character building, and it's just not working in my opinion. The show currently feels both slow and rushed.

Edit: Because, despite many people disliking Feast and Dance, they both have a lot of good stuff in them.

better to get the pain over with, and the get the hell out Meeren early next season.

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No you don't understand, because GRRM wrote it, so its ok.

Same reasoning must apply to Gilly/Sam complaints when Tyrion/Tysha was ok.

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I watch the show. I've read all the books. I will continue to watch the show til the bitter end (even though it's more and more of a slog this season). I watch it for entertainment - the swords, sex, and political machinations. It's not high art or supposed to be held to any sort of moral imperative. But, I suppose the difference between me and the "most viewers" you cite is that I'm not entertained by rape as a terribly overused, catchall mode of character development. It's lazy writing and makes for sub-quality, boring, and offensive television.

lol fair enough although I don't think anyone is saying they are "entertained" by rape. Rather, they choose not to draw bigger conclusions about the show or our society outside of the narrative.

Although I am still confused as to this notion that has been brought up by several people that D&D have "overused" rape. It's not like they're injecting it into every scene here.

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Was I watching a different show? When did Gilly get sexually assaulted? If you think that scene was only a means to get Sam laid then i dunno what else to say. You don't think this scene had anything to do with showing how much Sam has grown as a character? He stands up to his brothers, pulls a sword on them, gets his face kicked in literally, and still gets back up to challenge them again! That was the point of the scene. Sam has come a long way from the 'coward' in season 1 who immediately falls and yields to Rast in the training yard.

Having Gilly sexually assaulted just to show what a man Sam is is arguably worse than having her assaulted to get him laid.

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Having Gilly sexually assaulted just to show what a man Sam is is arguably worse than having her assaulted to get him laid.

Except of course, the rape attempt is in keeping with the known character of those who attempted it. INdeed Sam sent Gilly to Mole town in the frst place simply on that fear.

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Except of course, the rape attempt is in keeping with the known character of those who attempted it. INdeed Sam sent Gilly to Mole town in the frst place simply on that fear.

Just because the Night's Watch is made up of robbers and rapists doesn't mean Gilly had to be attacked, nor does it change why D&D chose to do so. GRRM certainly didn't need to have Gilly raped to demonstrate that there were rapists in the Night's Watch.

Edited by Pashernate Reader

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I watch the show. I've read all the books. I will continue to watch the show til the bitter end (even though it's more and more of a slog this season). I watch it for entertainment - the swords, sex, and political machinations. It's not high art or supposed to be held to any sort of moral imperative. But, I suppose the difference between me and the "most viewers" you cite is that I'm not entertained by rape as a terribly overused, catchall mode of character development. It's lazy writing and makes for sub-quality, boring, and offensive television.

This. How on earth is Sansa's or Gilly's or Daenerys' rape entertaining???

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Hasn't Sam by now though already demonstrated that he's no longer a coward? I must admit, I prefer show!Sam for exactly this reason; he didn't need Jon to tell him he's no longer a coward. And Maester Aemon had just died. That shared grief could have brought them together. But no, instead they wrote another sexual assault. And if they need a reason to send Gilly South, couldn't they just use the excuse that Jon needs a new Maester (Sam) and sends Gilly with him to keepher safe (seeing as they're probably sending Sam South anyway).


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Almost no show, movie, or book will hold up to scrutiny of individual scenes throughout. The question is whether the end result as a whole is entertaining or interesting such that a viewer, reader, or consumer would appreciate it or learn something from it. It is very difficult to ever tell whether or not a series or movie would be better or worse absent one scene unless random groups of people view or read the end result with and without that scene and a survey is taken about their opinions of the series or movie.

:agree:

A lot of people have lost their perspective and are now just bashing for the sake of bashing. Several have said they are no longer watching the show, yet they are still here commenting on the show instead of posting on other threads. I find that strange. I assume they are lying about watching the show. If they are not lying, and are simply posting based on other people's reviews or postings, it shows a lack of judgment at the very least.

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All this whining about Sansa not growing as a character seems really simplistic to me. Is it more human nature to make the same mistakes a few times, learn from our mistakes a little at a time and eventually grow as human beings or does everything just click all at once and from that point on we are always better people? Come on guys, life isn't a straight line. Putting on a new outfit does not make you a master player. Hell, unfortunately, a lot of people devolve over the course of their lives instead of learning from their mistakes.

IMO how Sansa is behaving in most of her scenes so far is not far fetched at all. However, I have faith she will learn and take the necessary agency to free herself from the bastard Boltons. Just have a little faith people. Please.

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All this whining about Sansa not growing as a character seems really simplistic to me. Is it more human nature to make the same mistakes a few times, learn from our mistakes a little at a time and eventually grow as human beings or does everything just click all at once and from that point on we are always better people? Come on guys, life isn't a straight line. Putting on a new outfit does not make you a master player. Hell, unfortunately, a lot of people devolve over the course of their lives instead of learning from their mistakes.

IMO how Sansa is behaving in most of her scenes so far is not far fetched at all. However, I have faith she will learn and take the necessary agency to free herself from the bastard Boltons. Just have a little faith people. Please.

It's been five seasons. That's a hell of a long time for a character to go without developing. And if the writers could find no way to have her develop except by getting raped... Then the writers are clearly not very good at what they do.

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As if Jeyne's rape was not used to develop Theon's saving of Jeyne, which is even worse when you think about it.

The difference is that the circumstances that led to Jeyne playing the fake Arya to marry Ramsay came out of logical story developments and character motivations. Put any female in that situation and she's going to get raped unless there's a miraculous rescue mission before it happens.

Context makes a difference. There was something deeply moving about Theon and Jeyne 'bonding' (can't think of a better word at the moment) over the shared experience of being 'broken' by Ramsay. That's what was used to develop Theon's redemptive arc, not the rape itself.

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It's been five seasons. That's a hell of a long time for a character to go without developing. And if the writers could find no way to have her develop except by getting raped... Then the writers are clearly not very good at what they do.

5 seasons? How about 5 books and Danny and Tyrion still haven't met. This is Game of Thrones. Most things we want take a long ass time if they even come at all.

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5 seasons? How about 5 books and Danny and Tyrion still haven't met. This is Game of Thrones. Most things we want take a long ass time if they even come at all.

Tyrion only started heading to Dany in the latest book and he's going to meet her in the next. But 5 seasons with a character undergoing no character development whatsoever is inexcusable.

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Sam already has been doing whatever she's wanted and places her safety above all else.

I also doubt Gilly even know what the game even is.

Ah, ah, ahhh!!! I said "(CERSEI'S)" game of thrones. She says that a woman's greatest weapon is between her legs.

But Sam would be willing to help Gilly, but he won't break his vows willingly. By sexing him, Gilly can claim that he already broke one vow, why not break one to save her life? Sam's fucked. Too bad he took his vows by a heart tree with Jon, so he technically is vowing to the old north gods.

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