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[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

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5 seasons? How about 5 books and Danny and Tyrion still haven't met. This is Game of Thrones. Most things we want take a long ass time if they even come at all.

Character development is different to story development. Sansa has made many mistakes but in the show she doesn't appear to have learned from them.

That change of attire and style you referred to previously. Your comment said exactly why it was stupid to use that as a means to swiftly suggest a learning curve without writing it organically, but if it wasn't there to suggest said learning curve then what on Planetos was the point of it?

Sansa accepting a marriage to a Bolton with the advice "make him yours" ringing in her ears was beyond moronic. However little character development she has gone through, she would have to be Lollys-level dimwitted to even consider it. Jeyne didn't have a choice. Sansa did.

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Tyrion only started heading to Dany in the latest book and he's going to meet her in the next. But 5 seasons with a character undergoing no character development whatsoever is inexcusable.

You really believe Sansa hasn't undergone any character development in 5 seasons? Seems overly simplistic to me. Even if you are 100% correct we are not done with the 5th season yet, and I believe by the end of it you won't be able to make that claim anymore.

Character development is different to story development. Sansa has made many mistakes but in the show she doesn't appear to have learned from them.

That change of attire and style you referred to previously. Your comment said exactly why it was stupid to use that as a means to swiftly suggest a learning curve without writing it organically, but if it wasn't there to suggest said learning curve then what on Planetos was the point of it?

Sansa accepting a marriage to a Bolton with the advice "make him yours" ringing in her ears was beyond moronic. However little character development she has gone through, she would have to be Lollys-level dimwitted to even consider it. Jeyne didn't have a choice. Sansa did.

About the change of attire: didn't Sansa wear her dead aunt's old dresses in the books? But for arguments sake lets just say this change in attire was supposed to symbolize in Sansa's mind her transformation as a player. Well she's a rookie and trying to play the Boltons is for pros only. So she's in over her head right now and she's gong to have to find her own way out.

Would it be moronic for Sansa to willingly marry the bastard Bolton? Of course. But did she really have a choice or was it more Littlefinger playing her into a false sense of choice where the answer he wants is the only acceptable one?

A unrelated point I will concede is it's utterly preposterous that the master chess player that is Littlefinger would know absolutely nothing about Ramsey who openy flays disobedient lords out in the open.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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Would it be moronic for Sansa to willingly marry the bastard Bolton? Of course. But did she really have a choice or was it more Littlefinger playing her into a false sense of choice where the answer he wants is the only acceptable one?

The actors and the writers claim she did have a choice -- which is ridiculous, when you look at the details and how the scenario is framed.

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Character development is different to story development. Sansa has made many mistakes but in the show she doesn't appear to have learned from them.

That change of attire and style you referred to previously. Your comment said exactly why it was stupid to use that as a means to swiftly suggest a learning curve without writing it organically, but if it wasn't there to suggest said learning curve then what on Planetos was the point of it?

Sansa accepting a marriage to a Bolton with the advice "make him yours" ringing in her ears was beyond moronic. However little character development she has gone through, she would have to be Lollys-level dimwitted to even consider it. Jeyne didn't have a choice. Sansa did.

To the second paragraph: It's a teenager trying to present herself as tough. She also believes she's tough to do the avenge plot. In many ways, she is tough. But not tough enough for Ramsay.

To the third paragraph, isn't that same advice what made her decide to marry Harry the Heir? I think D & D might be taking that same mission he put Sansa on in Feast of Crows and saying what if Harry was a monster? In a way to combine stories. Littlefinger gave her false information by saying that Ramsay had fallen for her. Her decision was made based on a lie because she trusted Littlefinger.

Edited by Lothar

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The actors and the writers claim she did have a choice -- which is ridiculous, when you look at the details and how the scenario is framed.

Well if that's true I won't defend them there. That just adds to my point above that Littlefinger being completely unaware of the bastard of Bolton's cruelty is a big stretch. However, for me that's been my only major criticism of the season thus far. That and not enough Doran through the first seven episodes.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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You really believe Sansa hasn't undergone any character development in 5 seasons? Seems overly simplistic to me. Even if you are 100% correct we are not done with the 5th season yet, and I believe by the end of it you won't be able to make that claim anymore.

Well, Sansa in KL was making no effort to escape. She was resigned to being a prisoner. In this episode and in the previews, she isn't. She's more active trying to force an escape. She picked up a sharp object for some reason. It's clear Theon isn't going to do anything on his own. So more than likely she will to have to force him to help her somehow. So she has changed. I hope the writers keep going with this and don't let us down.

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Well, Sansa in KL was making no effort to escape. She was resigned to being a prisoner. In this episode and in the previews, she isn't. She's more active trying to force an escape. She picked up a sharp object for some reason. It's clear Theon isn't going to do anything on his own. So more than likely she will to have to force him to help her somehow. So she has changed. I hope the writers keep going with this and don't let us down.

A very valid point. I have this inkling feeling Sansa is going to do something triumphant or at least central to her escape.

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How is the sharp object thing any different from wating to push Joffrey off the ledge in Season 1 but being stopped by the Hound? I don't think Sansa hasn't undergone ANY character development, but this IS a rethread.

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How is the sharp object thing any different from wating to push Joffrey off the ledge in Season 1 but being stopped by the Hound? I don't think Sansa hasn't undergone ANY character development, but this IS a rethread.

This is a good point. However, one difference is pushing Joffrey was a spur of the moment decision that would led to her suicide. Here, it looks like she has a plan. In KL, she planned nothing on her own. Based on the preview, I would say (and I hope) that she uses it on Theon. I hope Brienne isn't what convinces him.

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Just because it looks a bad plot to you doesn't mean the plot is bad. I liked it. Many other like it. It serves a lot for Tyrion's development as a character and helped him to understand himself and rise himself fro the bottom he got himself into it. And even when it could have had messy elements, it's definitely better than Jorah and Tyrion's amazing bro-urney. "Look, Dany! I'm the gift to save you from your stupidity!". It's not my fault that D&D and his apologists have zero idea of what themes are and how they work.

I may not be as concentrated on Griff as you are, but I loved the whole magical mystery Rhoyne travel with all those hints and the people on the boat were hugely interesting apart from enriching the plot.

But I am a D&D apologist and I understand that something had to go if they want to finish in seven series. And vote among 100 readers and you will get 110 opinions which part that should have been.

Edited by Woman of War

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Tyrion changes for about half of ADwD and then by the end of his book is back to his charming and witty self. He's in the dumps while he has nothing to occupy himself with and all the time in the world to self-pity. They went over it in the show, but briefly, since his story is much accelerated anyways. I would've liked a bit more self-exploration than self-pity but we have time for him to discuss these things now that they've got him where he needs to be.

This

For example I, Tyrion being my favorite character, really disliked it when the show thought to keep Tyrion digestible by leaving out the hatefuck in Selhorys. They avoided the complex richness of that character, an annoying omission since with Dinklage they have an actor who would have given us an even more differenciated and compelling Tyrion, for viewers who do not think in terms of black and white but appreciate nuances and development over being judgemental. The show could have made the character even more fascinating if they had only let the actor go there.

But in hindsight they would have have created the next shitstorm instead of a quality debate. That is what you get if you dare leaving trodden paths with characters. Grey is invisible to most viewers.

Edited by Woman of War

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To the second paragraph: It's a teenager trying to present herself as tough. She also believes she's tough to do the avenge plot. In many ways, she is tough. But not tough enough for Ramsay.

To the third paragraph, isn't that same advice what made her decide to marry Harry the Heir? I think D & D might be taking that same mission he put Sansa on in Feast of Crows and saying what if Harry was a monster? In a way to combine stories. Littlefinger gave her false information by saying that Ramsay had fallen for her. Her decision was made based on a lie because she trusted Littlefinger.

Little you say here is false, but none of it makes the choices of the show any better. There's a difference between the allegedly dashing Harry being her next suitor and a Bolton being her next suitor (the Starks' long term enemies in Northern feudal history and well know in-world to have played a considerable part in RW). The fundamentals upon which this story has grown are ludicrous at best.

Just a few things points though. LF said he didn't know anything about Ramsay, so how could he know he had fallen for her? And how could Ramsay have fallen for her when he has never seen her?

Finally, I've said this numerous times before but Sansa does NOT trust LF. He is simply the devil she knows as opposed to the devil she doesn't know.

Whatever way you swing it, Sansa is made to look completely moronic by the events leading to this story line.

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This. How on earth is Sansa's or Gilly's or Daenerys' rape entertaining???

Why wouldn't it be entertaining?

Why are battles entertaining? Why are flayed women entertaining? Why is imprisoning innocent men entertaining? What makes rape so special that people ca'n't stop whining about it?

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Well if that's true I won't defend them there. That just adds to my point above that Littlefinger being completely unaware of the bastard of Bolton's cruelty is a big stretch. However, for me that's been my only major criticism of the season thus far. That and not enough Doran through the first seven episodes.

And two of the biggest cliche-concepts in the history of film: 1. the concept of the decisive vote. 2. the concept of antidote.

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:agree:

A lot of people have lost their perspective and are now just bashing for the sake of bashing. Several have said they are no longer watching the show, yet they are still here commenting on the show instead of posting on other threads. I find that strange. I assume they are lying about watching the show. If they are not lying, and are simply posting based on other people's reviews or postings, it shows a lack of judgment at the very least.

oh they're lying alright

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Little you say here is false, but none of it makes the choices of the show any better. There's a difference between the allegedly dashing Harry being her next suitor and a Bolton being her next suitor (the Starks' long term enemies in Northern feudal history and well know in-world to have played a considerable part in RW). The fundamentals upon which this story has grown are ludicrous at best.

Well, she's not marrying him to fall in love with him. She probably figures he's not a great guy. I think the idea is she was intending to do for Ramsay what Margaery did for Joffrey. But she didn't realize how terrible he would treat her. Afterall she knows nothing about him and LF told her that he really liked her.

Just a few things points though. LF said he didn't know anything about Ramsay, so how could he know he had fallen for her? And how could Ramsay have fallen for her when he has never seen her?

Watch this again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_V8210JoCo

Ramsay made it appear to LF as if he was smitten by her beauty. LF bought it and conveyed that to Sansa..

Finally, I've said this numerous times before but Sansa does NOT trust LF. He is simply the devil she knows as opposed to the devil she doesn't know.

There is no evidence of this on the show. If she didn't trust him, she wouldn't have believed what he was saying. She didn't want to go through with it. He convinced her. She absolutely trusts him.

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There is no evidence of this on the show. If she didn't trust him, she wouldn't have believed what he was saying. She didn't want to go through with it. He convinced her. She absolutely trusts him.

"Better to gamble on the man you know than the strangers you don't" (season 4 episode 8)

Edited by Dolorous Gabe

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Question:



Why was show-Cersei arrested? They made it quite clear in the book, but the HS gave no direct reason. What info did Lancel give him? (didn't they pork at one point in S2?)

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Question:

Why was show-Cersei arrested? They made it quite clear in the book, but the HS gave no direct reason. What info did Lancel give him? (didn't they pork at one point in S2?)

I don't think a charge was stated. I guess it'll be the conspiracy to murder Robert unless she was having sex with Lancel whilst married to Robert. They should certainly explain it at some point anyway.

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Why wouldn't it be entertaining?

Why are battles entertaining? Why are flayed women entertaining? Why is imprisoning innocent men entertaining? What makes rape so special that people ca'n't stop whining about it?

To be completely honest, I don't find flayed women and imprisoning innocent men particularly entertaining either, per se. I do understand that when these are organic to the plot, and used sparingly, they may be necessary to tell the story, but in and out of itself, I don't find flaying and rape entertaining, no. And neither do a lot of other people, hence the storm of criticism that you apparently call the whining.

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