[Poll] How would you rate episode 507?

[marsyao]

once again and really concentrate this time:

if three of the key characters in the first 4 seasons have to be killed off because they have been killed off in book 3, that means they can't be used in season 5, which doesn't' help in keeping momentum.

so before any adaptation from books 4 and 5 into season 5 had begun, there was already a loss of key characters to have to deal with,particularly in King's Landing. Are you with me so far??

Established characters and settings with a decent plot are what viewers want most. The most successful setting this season - the WALL, has that.

The least successful: Dorne; has in some cases got neither.

KL has been ok, but not as good as previous season because 2 of the main characters are dead and 2 more [varys, tyrion ] are not around.

the average viewer is sick of Meereen, but as books 4 and 5 are still set there, it is very hard to do anything but continue to be based there.

That is how the books influence the show even before you get to adaptation.

I am tired of this ridiculous, but OK, I could be very patient sometimes, so let us go over again "if three of the key characters in the first 4 seasons have to be killed off because they have been killed off in book 3, that means they can't be used in season 5, which doesn't' help in keeping momentum., blahblahblah", OK, I am with you, that is GRRM's decisions, GRRM is bad, that has nothing to do with D&D, that of course makes D&D's job not easy for this season, if they choose to follow GRRM's Story in book 4 and book 5 and it sucks, that will be GRRM's fault, but NOOOOOO, D&D decided to make their own stories for this season, so of course it will be D&&D who have to take the responsibility for this folly

[Count Balerion]

lol

:agree:

[dooog]

I am tired of this ridiculous, but OK, I could be very patient sometimes, so let us go over again "if three of the key characters in the first 4 seasons have to be killed off because they have been killed off in book 3, that means they can't be used in season 5, which doesn't' help in keeping momentum., blahblahblah", OK, I am with you, that is GRRM's decisions, GRRM is bad, that has nothing to do with D&D, that of course makes D&D's job not easy for this season, if they choose to follow GRRM's Story in book 4 and book 5 and it sucks, that will be GRRM's fault, but NOOOOOO, D&D decided to make their own stories for this season, so of course it will be D&&D who have to take the responsibility for this folly

To be fair he has a point. IMO it's a combination of the diminishing quality of the source material and of D&D making some very poor decisions and downright sloppy dumbed down writing.

Losing four great characters, particularly Charles Dance and Rory McCann is a massive blow especially when your choice of replacements are Dorne, White Arbor, BwB, Griff and the Iron Isles. Dorne wasn't terribly exciting in the books, though the show has managed to make a complete and utter hash of it.

Arya and the faceless men on the other hand has been okay and more or less been faithful with source material and yet, those scenes are underwhelming.

People fret over Lady Stoneheart's absence, personally I think it was a great decision to drop her, though they should've kept the BWB. One thing that's always irked me in the books is how book death isn't final unless your head is chopped off, burned or mounted on a pike.

White Arbor and Manderly would've made for good television. Wyman even fits the show's caricature of the bumbling fat oaf. And pies would've given the show a nice shock gasp moment which is what it appears to rely on.

As for the Iron Isles, it'd nice to know the status of those guys, but again, it was one of the weaker points of the source material. I audibly sighed every time Damphair would show up and it always seemed like an unnecessary detour.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

It's time to call it by its real name - Lack Of Source Material

The first four season were (for the most part) directly adapted from the books. When D&D started this whole mess, they knew (or should have known) the final books were still years away from being finished. They took a gamble and because they guessed somethings correctly, they decided to condense an encyclopedia into approximately 60 hours of television.

Some of their choices were good, others not so much. Bringing Tyrion and Dany together sooner rather than later? Excellent. Combining Jeyne Poole and Sansa Stark stories? Not so good.

Until GRRM finished the last page of the last book, we won't know which decisions were ultimately the best. We can argue until there isn't skin left on our fingers to type, but for now this is the story we are being given. Do I like all their choices? Hell no, but until I can read the original source material I will groan and cry and laugh and scream with each hour we have. It's better than any attempt network television might have made to make GoT.

[marsyao]

To be fair he has a point. IMO it's a combination of the diminishing quality of the source material and of D&D making some very poor decisions and downright sloppy dumbed down writing.

Again, I am not arguing the diminishing quality of the source material, believe me I get it, my only point is "diminishing quality of the source material" has nothing to do with the poor quality of season 5, the reason is simple, D&D almost use none of the original source material, they create their own stories instead, so the poor quality is on D&D, not on GRRM

Edited May 28, 2015 by marsyao

[Denam_Pavel]

The books, whatever other faults they have, are told from many different perspectives, in many different locations. The show decide to captilise on KL as the central location. And then even more in S2. and then even more in S3 and then even more in S4. That this couldn't last has been pointed out in this forum for years. They knowingly resigned to shooting themselves in the foot the moment Tyrion kills Tywin and leaves KL.

[Cas Stark]

The books, whatever other faults they have, are told from many different perspectives, in many different locations. The show decide to captilise on KL as the central location. And then even more in S2. and then even more in S3 and then even more in S4. That this couldn't last has been pointed out in this forum for years. They knowingly resigned to shooting themselves in the foot the moment Tyrion kills Tywin and leaves KL.

seems sorta stupid.

one would think, knowing the end of the story, who lives, who dies and roughly when, that a non stupid set of showrunners would use that info. and work backwards, ensuring that the longest lived secondary characters were introduced as early as possible so the audience would be vested in them...and that they would have been thinking of how to replace the set of major players who went out in season 4.

Siddig is good, but if he never gets any screen time, he can't replace anyone or ground any storylines. The sand snakes are a disaster and there is nothing else to be said, those were some serious casting errors magnified by bad writing.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

That some people insist on blaming the source material for this fiasco of a season, when the show uses perhaps 10% of the book's content (and practically none of the dialogue), is astounding.

[ummester]

To be fair he has a point. IMO it's a combination of the diminishing quality of the source material and of D&D making some very poor decisions and downright sloppy dumbed down writing.

Losing four great characters, particularly Charles Dance and Rory McCann is a massive blow especially when your choice of replacements are Dorne, White Arbor, BwB, Griff and the Iron Isles. Dorne wasn't terribly exciting in the books, though the show has managed to make a complete and utter hash of it.

Arya and the faceless men on the other hand has been okay and more or less been faithful with source material and yet, those scenes are underwhelming.

People fret over Lady Stoneheart's absence, personally I think it was a great decision to drop her, though they should've kept the BWB. One thing that's always irked me in the books is how book death isn't final unless your head is chopped off, burned or mounted on a pike.

White Arbor and Manderly would've made for good television. Wyman even fits the show's caricature of the bumbling fat oaf. And pies would've given the show a nice shock gasp moment which is what it appears to rely on.

As for the Iron Isles, it'd nice to know the status of those guys, but again, it was one of the weaker points of the source material. I audibly sighed every time Damphair would show up and it always seemed like an unnecessary detour.

All of this is why it should be gearing up to conclude in 5 or 6 seasons, not stretch out to 7 or 8.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

The books, whatever other faults they have, are told from many different perspectives, in many different locations. The show decide to captilise on KL as the central location. And then even more in S2. and then even more in S3 and then even more in S4. That this couldn't last has been pointed out in this forum for years. They knowingly resigned to shooting themselves in the foot the moment Tyrion kills Tywin and leaves KL.

seems sorta stupid.

one would think, knowing the end of the story, who lives, who dies and roughly when, that a non stupid set of showrunners would use that info. and work backwards, ensuring that the longest lived secondary characters were introduced as early as possible so the audience would be vested in them...and that they would have been thinking of how to replace the set of major players who went out in season 4.

Siddig is good, but if he never gets any screen time, he can't replace anyone or ground any storylines. The sand snakes are a disaster and there is nothing else to be said, those were some serious casting errors magnified by bad writing.

First of all, i do find this question on adaptation to be very interesting and going to he heart of what it is that D&D do- probably can do with its own section.

I think that as you imply, some of the issues regarding Season 5 are in fact more rooted in decisions made in Seasons 3 and 4. There was clearly a drive to get to the end of ASoS, and maybe not enough thought for how to best "root in" season 5. But this is easier said than done.

I do chuckle at the thought that you would all be so wise as to turn down the brilliance of KL up to and including season 4 because of your awareness of the long game. I'm not sure i or anyone else would have been so disciplined

Of course the root cause is that GRRM made the exact same mistake in his character focus up to the end of ASoS and the gear change in ACok and ADwD, is in fact more jarring. Book readers being what they are, many give a little bit more leeway... if D&D had replicated that level of structural change, the average viewer would have been totally discombobulated.

now to address the question in bold, in some cases they did do that and where they didn't, it was mostly because there are some fundamental difficulties with that that would be hard to overcome... It is far from as easy as you imply. Lets just think about some of the newer dramatis personae this season:

Ramsay- has been foregrounded far more before season 5 that before Book 4

Roose - about even

Doran/ Dorne- the are introduced in the books on the back of Oberyn's death- should a way have been contrived to introduce them earlier?

High Sparrow- certainly could have done a bit more here- based on casting for season 6 they seem a bit back to front on this topic.

Stannis- got a decent amount of time, even had plot invented to foreground him more in Season 4.

Greyjoys- sure Balon could have died earlier, but a decision to concentrate this plot into season 6 seems sensible enough to me and may be based on a better picture of where ASOIAF is ultimately going...

Assorted Essosi- hard to introduce them before Tyrion goes on the road

The best arguments in your case are the Riverlands and ( much more significantly in my view) the Northern Lords. I think the argument is stronger in the latter case because they have more narrative freedom in Season 4. In the former case, Jamie had to be in KL in Season 4. But they placed the Boltons in winterfell and should have spent more time on building up the Northern Lords. [ time had to come from something else though].

Thy made some alternative decisions to work around all of this in Season 5. Some have worked [ excellent casting of the high sparrow, shortening Tyrion's journey], some are too early to call [ Sansa], Jamie in Dorne has not.

I expect that Season 6 will be an easier task for them and an easier watch for us.

Edited May 28, 2015 by God-Emperor of Yi Ti

[Lothar]

That some people insist on blaming the source material for this fiasco of a season, when the show uses perhaps 10% of the book's content (and practically none of the dialogue), is astounding.

I like this season. Biggest problem is some of the best characters (and best actors) are dead or doing side stories away from everyone else (Arya, Tyrion) Same as it was in the books. Unfortunately, they also turned Dany crazy and unlikable and made Jaime irrelevant. Those two things can't be blamed on the books. I like what they've done with the Wall and Winterfell though. Hated putting Sansa in Jeyne Poole's place at first but it's been making more and more sense to me. She still comes off as strong even though she's a prisoner and desperate and scared. She's not just giving up on life.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

Again, I am not arguing the diminishing quality of the source material, believe me I get it, my only point is "diminishing quality of the source material" has nothing to do with the poor quality of season 5, the reason is simple, D&D almost use none of the original source material, they create their own stories instead, so the poor quality is on D&D, not on GRRM

Once more, characters make stories. And great acting makes great characters. Tywin Lannister/Charles Dance, The Hound/Rory McCann, Oberyn Martell/Pedro Pascal, Joffrey/Jack Gleason is a hell of lot to have to throw to one side and keep plugging on in Season 5.

The books suffer from it. The show has suffered as well

Clear?

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

I like this season. Biggest problem is some of the best characters (and best actors) are dead or doing side stories away from everyone else (Arya, Tyrion) Same as it was in the books. Unfortunately, they also turned Dany crazy and unlikable and made Jaime irrelevant. Those two things can't be blamed on the books. I like what they've done with the Wall and Winterfell though. Hated putting Sansa in Jeyne Poole's place at first but it's been making more and more sense to me. She still comes off as strong even though she's a prisoner and desperate and scared. She's not just giving up on life.

Can't argue with much of that.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

I like this season. Biggest problem is some of the best characters (and best actors) are dead or doing side stories away from everyone else (Arya, Tyrion) Same as it was in the books. Unfortunately, they also turned Dany crazy and unlikable and made Jaime irrelevant. Those two things can't be blamed on the books. I like what they've done with the Wall and Winterfell though. Hated putting Sansa in Jeyne Poole's place at first but it's been making more and more sense to me. She still comes off as strong even though she's a prisoner and desperate and scared. She's not just giving up on life.

Sorry, it still doesn't make sense even if there's something positive to be drawn out of it by the end. Too many rationalizations, leaps of logic and inconsistencies to put the whole thing in motion in the 1st place.

Once more, characters make stories. And great acting makes great characters. Tywin Lannister/Charles Dance, The Hound/Rory McCann, Oberyn Martell/Pedro Pascal, Joffrey/Jack Gleason is a hell of lot to have to throw to one side and keep plugging on in Season 5.

The books suffer from it. The show has suffered as well

Clear?

So, let me get this straight. The books can still be "blamed" for: 1) Arya and Tyrion not working since they still follow the book plotline in the broadest of senses, and 2) for the nearly simultaneous deaths of too many compelling characters in S04.

For (1), let's just say that this general sense of "feeling rushed, but at the same time slow and boring" that quite a few of people have expressed, is entirely on the show. They removed auxiliary characters, motivations and left a skeleton of a plot for both of them. For Tyrion, he reaches Meereen at the speed of Phileas Fogg, aided by a series of nonsensical events around "Valyria" and the slavers, and bumps into Dany thanks to a nonsensical tradition of watching some sort of "qualifiers" for Daznak. In the case of Arya, a few washed corpses, a gift of death by the very difficult method of a cup of water for a little girl who was brought there to receive the gift anyway, and she's ready to see the secrets of the FM. Yeah, totally GRRM's fault that despite jumping from point A to point B at the speed of D&D's convenience, it falls flat and has underwhelmed many a Shownly.

For (2), it's in the eye of the beholder. For starters, i hope you don't purport that it's an absolute must to introduce characters from the beginning to make them compelling, since Oberyn himself has proved that this argument is bogus. Then, you'd have to make the case that those characters are totaly irreplaceable. Since you've made clear that the characters left after the last two books don't make up for those losses to you, i won't chide you on that. But that's your case, not everyone's. And for TV, good casting (as has been the show's usual) and good writing can replace those characters, either introducing some of the new ones, or at least not forgetting the ones already established, and with a plot that makes sense. I'm not saying they definitely will be replaced, but it can be done. Last but not least, the show "suffers" from the books killing off characters, but they discard great characters like Barristan, and forget others like Beric, Thoros & the Blackfish? It doesn't compute.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Nadaplete

[Denam_Pavel]

First of all, i do find this question on adaptation to be very interesting and going to he heart of what it is that D&D do- probably can do with its own section.

I think that as you imply, some of the issues regarding Season 5 are in fact more rooted in decisions made in Seasons 3 and 4. There was clearly a drive to get to the end of ASoS, and maybe not enough thought for how to best "root in" season 5. But this is easier said than done.

I do chuckle at the thought that you would all be so wise as to turn down the brilliance of KL up to and including season 4 because of your awareness of the long game. I'm not sure i or anyone else would have been so disciplined

I wouldn't turn it down completely. And I wouldn't be entirely motivated by awareness of the long game. But Blackfish and Edmure could've been around since S2, so could Ramsay and Manderly.

Of course the root cause is that GRRM made the exact same mistake in his character focus up to the end of ASoS and the gear change in ACok and ADwD, is in fact more jarring. Book readers being what they are, many give a little bit more leeway... if D&D had replicated that level of structural change, the average viewer would have been totally discombobulated.

Stannis' introduction was succesful, didn't even need a familiar character to help sell it. the Greyjoys were introduced through Theon. Who was made more important in the show for that purpose. Maybe they could've done the same with Myrcella. Or maybe just have the same faith they did in Stannis and Davos as POV character in their own right. Or use Jaime to introduce us too scene. Instead they trusted in Ellaria doing this in itty bitty two minute scenes and other then that let the Alcázar of Seville speak for itself.

now to address the question in bold, in some cases they did do that and where they didn't, it was mostly because there are some fundamental difficulties with that that would be hard to overcome... It is far from as easy as you imply. Lets just think about some of the newer dramatis personae this season:

Ramsay- has been foregrounded far more before season 5 that before Book 4

Says you. Give me the Northern politics plotline in S2 before Theon tortureporn any day of the week.

Stannis- got a decent amount of time, even had plot invented to foreground him more in Season 4.

The trip to Braavos was fun. But he spent most of S3 and S4 moping around on Dragonstone. They completely lost momentum with the character. Same with Bran.

Greyjoys- sure Balon could have died earlier, but a decision to concentrate this plot into season 6 seems sensible enough to me and may be based on a better picture of where ASOIAF is ultimately going...

Let's say I follow that logic. Why isn't the North invaded anymore if Balon is still alive? We have Ramsay, Yara, Roose, Balon. Instead of acknowledging an ongoing war between the two, let's take it easy and let the Greyjoys fade into the obscurity.

The best arguments in your case are the Riverlands and ( much more significantly in my view) the Northern Lords. I think the argument is stronger in the latter case because they have more narrative freedom in Season 4. In the former case, Jamie had to be in KL in Season 4. But they placed the Boltons in winterfell and should have spent more time on building up the Northern Lords. [ time had to come from something else though].

What about the Wall? Our betrayers have been reduced too Alliser (whose work was done in their relatively faithful adaptation of Book 1) and Olly. I feel they rather failed to build up the correct characters there as well.

Thy made some alternative decisions to work around all of this in Season 5. Some have worked [ excellent casting of the high sparrow, shortening Tyrion's journey],

If they were gonna shorten it this much, they might as well have the boat take them all the way too Volantis instead of Pentos for indirect Illyrio fanservice we know won't get any pay off. And then actually show Volantis instead of the inside of a box or a tiny fishing boat.

some are too early to call [ Sansa], Jamie in Dorne has not.

Given the lack deserts, lack of screentime for Doran or Nymeria, the darth of extras, the absence of Sunspear and so on, I'd say they didn't bother to really try is more accurate then saying their earnest effort simply failed to work.

[roxWolfox]

After reading through the posts, I get what the book readers are saying, but I simply cannot support your arguments.

If you want the A Song of Ice and Fire story in all its great glory, you have the books to read and digest. For those who don't have the time, we have a one hour per week, 10 week summary of the story we pay HBO and Mr Martin to bring onscreen so we can learn of/enjoy the world of Planetos or whatever you want to call the Westeros/Essos planet.

It has been well documented how poorly movies/shows that are converted/adapted from books are received by the fans of the books. Stephen King books are my pet peeves, but there are far more egregious adaptations out there.

If you love ASoIaF, don't look to tv to bring the story to full completion. If you enjoy the visuals of Rome and Troy and Spartacus and Gladiator and the like, Game of Thrones is must see tv.

eta: strange that I felt compelled to post this on a poll thread.

Edited May 28, 2015 by roxWolfox 🍁

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

For (2), it's in the eye of the beholder. For starters, i hope you don't purport that it's an absolute must to introduce characters from the beginning to make them compelling, since Oberyn himself has proved that this argument is bogus. Then, you'd have to make the case that those characters are totaly irreplaceable. Since you've made clear that the characters left after the last two books don't make up for those losses to you, i won't chide you on that. But that's your case, not everyone's.

And for TV, good casting (as has been the show's usual) and good writing can replace those characters, either introducing some of the new ones, or at least not forgetting the ones already established, and with a plot that makes sense. I'm not saying they definitely will be replaced, but it can be done. Last but not least, the show "suffers" from the books killing off characters, but they discard great characters like Barristan, and forget others like Beric, Thoros & the Blackfish? It doesn't compute.

Some characters work better on screen that on page. I guess its a feature of the writing behind them [original or adapted], the extent to which they are an interior or exterior character [ or can be made verbalise their thoughts], the mis en scene, and the quality of the acting, oh and their centrality to the plot.

Through some combination of these points, Tywin, Oberyn, the Hound and Joffrey exploded onto the TV screen, in a way that most of the non-principals did not. It really isn't a subjective exercise- these characters resonated on screen and made every scene involving them work.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

Stannis' introduction was succesful, didn't even need a familiar character to help sell it. the Greyjoys were introduced through Theon. Who was made more important in the show for that purpose. Maybe they could've done the same with Myrcella. Or maybe just have the same faith they did in Stannis and Davos as POV character in their own right. Or use Jaime to introduce us too scene. Instead they trusted in Ellaria doing this in itty bitty two minute scenes and other then that let the Alcázar of Seville speak for itself.

I think the debate on Dorne is over- lets see what they salvage by season end.

Says you. Give me the Northern politics plotline in S2 before Theon tortureporn any day of the week.

More a season 3 and 4 point, But again, no arguments.

The trip to Braavos was fun. But he spent most of S3 and S4 moping around on Dragonstone. They completely lost momentum with the character. Same with Bran.

i disagree on those- what else could they have done , with nothing in the books to go on? I don't know if there was ever a way for Bran to translate well to screen...

Let's say I follow that logic. Why isn't the North invaded anymore if Balon is still alive? We have Ramsay, Yara, Roose, Balon. Instead of acknowledging an ongoing war between the two, let's take it easy and let the Greyjoys fade into the obscurity.

A holding pattern, but there wasn't a great deal of plot to go on, prior to the Kingsmoot. We had Moat Cailin, and for the rest lets see where we stand at the end of the season.

What about the Wall? Our betrayers have been reduced too Alliser (whose work was done in their relatively faithful adaptation of Book 1) and Olly. I feel they rather failed to build up the correct characters there as well.

Sorry, this is book absolutist nit pick territory. Characters whose sole raison d'etre is to stab Jon Snow?. Good narrative economy to reduce it down to a Thorne and a composite character, and readers need to grow up and realise this is part and parcel of any adaptation.

If they were gonna shorten it this much, they might as well have the boat take them all the way too Volantis instead of Pentos for indirect Illyrio fanservice we know won't get any pay off. And then actually show Volantis instead of the inside of a box or a tiny fishing boat.

And how does Varys switch with Jorah? This whole edited travelogues has been nicely done, although they were a bit sloppy with the linkages from the pirates to the practice pit.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

Given the lack deserts, lack of screentime for Doran or Nymeria, the darth of extras, the absence of Sunspear and so on, I'd say they didn't bother to really try is more accurate then saying their earnest effort simply failed to work.

Sand dunes, the season isn't over, yes, do you think any unsullied care etc.

A misstep overall of course. Jamie and Bronn should have been sent as upfront ambassadors with a Kidnap Plan B; and the sand snakes better written and acted. Ellarias speech on revenge will be transposed to Doran and that is just fine.

[Viserys Targaryen.]

6/10

I liked Dany meeting Tyrion and Dorne this time.

I disliked the scene with Sam and Gilly, but Ghost was cool.

I really hate the faith millitant. They come out of nothing and have so much power, way too much. 'There is nothing I can do', ok Tommen. There is plenty you can do, and have to do.