robasp2 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I don't think Sansan thing is a major factor, It is more about the general low quality of this season.I think Sansa IS a big factor.It is stated season 3 finale was the lowest watched. That means the episode after the Red Wedding.When people become so angry they stop watching.That being said, I agree show quality is decreasing. Nite that a VERY large number still watch the show because "everyone" is watching it.So when the "more invested" people complain of the decreasing quality or stop watching, these "secondary" viewers no longer watch. Hence I expect the number of viewers to continue to fall. Season 6&7 will be all time low since Book readers will spread the hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I think Sansa IS a big factor.It is stated season 3 finale was the lowest watched. That means the episode after the Red Wedding.When people become so angry they stop watching.That being said, I agree show quality is decreasing. Nite that a VERY large number still watch the show because "everyone" is watching it.So when the "more invested" people complain of the decreasing quality or stop watching, these "secondary" viewers no longer watch.Hence I expect the number of viewers to continue to fall. Season 6&7 will be all time low since Book readers will spread the hate. And then it jumped up in Season 4. Showmakers obviously hope that packing a pile of action into the last 3 episodes will let them finish the season on a high Booksnobs will spread the hate no doubt, no matter, the show will go to a conclusion now. They will left to stew in it once the series concludes and they are waiting for book 7 -8 -9 ( ?) to appear in some future decade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 And then it jumped up in Season 4. Showmakers obviously hope that packing a pile of action into the last 3 episodes will let them finish the season on a high Booksnobs will spread the hate no doubt, no matter, the show will go to a conclusion now. They will left to stew in it once the series concludes and they are waiting for book 7 -8 -9 ( ?) to appear in some future decadeSurprisingly booksnobs are a main factor that determines show views.After RW,Then there was this huge book reader fanbase that defended the wedding. Stuff like "You got it wrong dude. This is why its the best series ever". Thats why many came back.When the same fanbase spread out hate like " This is the most fucked up show dude", many tend to listen to them.Anyhow, GoT will run until season 7 finale. Lower numbers may bring down the budget. This will bring down CGI and expensive props and locations. The quality may fall, but GoT will finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Surprisingly booksnobs are a main factor that determines show views.After RW,Then there was this huge book reader fanbase that defended the wedding. Stuff like "You got it wrong dude. This is why its the best series ever". Thats why many came back.When the same fanbase spread out hate like " This is the most fucked up show dude", many tend to listen to them.Anyhow, GoT will run until season 7 finale. Lower numbers may bring down the budget. This will bring down CGI and expensive props and locations. The quality may fall, but GoT will finish. I think you are making way too much of the impact of book readers on the show, for good or ill. Basically all viewers added after season 1 are not original book readers In any case all this focus on the US numbers is only one [ increasingly small] part of the overall package,as HBO is pushing this all the way round the world on cable. As its censored in many of these locations, this whole T&A debate does'n't even arise there. Just like in Cinema, the US is just the biggest market now, not the be all and end all. Yep GoT will finish. And it will be the only finish there will be,Because i've seen nothing in the WOW chapters to suggest GRRM has tightened up his writing from ADwD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Eddard Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I think you are making way too much of the impact of book readers on the show, for good or ill. Basically all viewers added after season 1 are not original book readers In any case all this focus on the US numbers is only one [ increasingly small] part of the overall package,as HBO is pushing this all the way round the world on cable. As its censored in many of these locations, this whole T&A debate does'n't even arise there. Just like in Cinema, the US is just the biggest market now, not the be all and end all. Yep GoT will finish. And it will be the only finish there will be,Because i've seen nothing in the WOW chapters to suggest GRRM has tightened up his writing from ADwD. This. And that's the reason I am thankful to D&D - because they will give us an ending instead of further meandering fillers like Dance. Regarding book vs show lovers, most of my friends have read the books years before HBO and all of them are relieved that the show tightened plot and pace after Storm. Let's face it, Feast and especially Dance were already a chore to read, a "faithful adaptation" on screen would have been unbearable to watch *shudder*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I think you are making way too much of the impact of book readers on the show, for good or ill. Basically all viewers added after season 1 are not original book readers In any case all this focus on the US numbers is only one [ increasingly small] part of the overall package,as HBO is pushing this all the way round the world on cable. As its censored in many of these locations, this whole T&A debate does'n't even arise there. Just like in Cinema, the US is just the biggest market now, not the be all and end all. Yep GoT will finish. And it will be the only finish there will be,Because i've seen nothing in the WOW chapters to suggest GRRM has tightened up his writing from ADwD. I tend to agree that the show may be the only finish there is, which makes it all the more sad that the little bit of more time and effort spent on writing and plotting the show, and possibly trying to stick with a consistent set of directors simply hasn't happened, and if it hasn't happened yet, it won't happen. So, for all of it's past heights and the good things it has done and can still do it will remain a sloppy, ill thought out, poorly paced adaptation that squanders the talents of it's actors and the source material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denam_Pavel Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 I think the debate on Dorne is over- lets see what they salvage by season end. More a season 3 and 4 point, But again, no arguments. i disagree on those- what else could they have done , with nothing in the books to go on? I don't know if there was ever a way for Bran to translate well to screen... A holding pattern, but there wasn't a great deal of plot to go on, prior to the Kingsmoot. We had Moat Cailin, and for the rest lets see where we stand at the end of the season. Sorry, this is book absolutist nit pick territory. Characters whose sole raison d'etre is to stab Jon Snow?. Good narrative economy to reduce it down to a Thorne and a composite character, and readers need to grow up and realise this is part and parcel of any adaptation. And how does Varys switch with Jorah? This whole edited travelogues has been nicely done, although they were a bit sloppy with the linkages from the pirates to the practice pit. This is not about book nitpicking. Bran is put on hold because there isn't anything for him to do yet, and before then crappy filler plot. The Greyjoys are put on hold because there isn't anything for them to do yet and before then crappy filler plot. Stannis had to mope around on Dragonstone for a long time until the time was right. Barristan took a randomly long time before he decided to out Jorah. The Sons of Harpy took a while to show up. Arya was taken all the way to the Gates of The Moon before going back to her canon story. Tullys got ditched. What did we gain in this time? Not a lot of Tormund, not a lot of Mance. We still had to streamline the traitors as you pointed out, no time bought there. The elections still had to be done in a hurry. But if you look at King's Landing it's crystal clear. A whole wealth of episodes for Tyrion, Tywin, Joffrey and later Oberyn bumming around the city before the **** hits the fan. Yeah, they're great actors and characters but the entire rest of the show has to adapt or go away entirely depending on what is convenient for the KL plotline. I have serious problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gustavo Fringed Sleeves Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Yep GoT will finish. And it will be the only finish there will be,Because i've seen nothing in the WOW chapters to suggest GRRM has tightened up his writing from ADwD. I tend to agree that the show may be the only finish there is, which makes it all the more sad that the little bit of more time and effort spent on writing and plotting the show, and possibly trying to stick with a consistent set of directors simply hasn't happened, and if it hasn't happened yet, it won't happen. So, for all of it's past heights and the good things it has done and can still do it will remain a sloppy, ill thought out, poorly paced adaptation that squanders the talents of it's actors and the source material. Jesus f*cking Christ. And I thought I was a cynic :smoking: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) I tend to agree that the show may be the only finish there is, which makes it all the more sad that the little bit of more time and effort spent on writing and plotting the show, and possibly trying to stick with a consistent set of directors simply hasn't happened, and if it hasn't happened yet, it won't happen. So, for all of it's past heights and the good things it has done and can still do it will remain a sloppy, ill thought out, poorly paced adaptation that squanders the talents of it's actors and the source material. I have regrets about it too- i think a core part of the issue was that 7 seasons flat was the target for a long time, and that now has shifted to 8 seasons. If they had known that when they were writing season 4, some different decisions could have been made - shifting Sansa and Little finger more into season 5; using the time gained to introduce the northern lords paying homage to the Boltons at Winterfell. I see the casting news for season 6 as indicating they are not rushing pell mell to the conclusion [ while still getting Dany the hell out of Meeren]. Septon Meribald is particularly encouraging in this regard. I seem to be in a minority here, but the quiet beauty of the Arya scenes;the Valyria scenes; everything about the High Sparrow himself and even the Sansa wedding in the Godswood shows me that they can still produce something top notch when they set their minds to it. I still have hope that liberated from meeting any book waymarks from here to the conclusion of season 8 they can plot a satisfying route Edited May 29, 2015 by God-Emperor of Yi Ti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 This is not about book nitpicking. Bran is put on hold because there isn't anything for him to do yet, and before then crappy filler plot. The Greyjoys are put on hold because there isn't anything for them to do yet and before then crappy filler plot. Stannis had to mope around on Dragonstone for a long time until the time was right. Barristan took a randomly long time before he decided to out Jorah. The Sons of Harpy took a while to show up. Arya was taken all the way to the Gates of The Moon before going back to her canon story. Tullys got ditched. What did we gain in this time? Not a lot of Tormund, not a lot of Mance. We still had to streamline the traitors as you pointed out, no time bought there. The elections still had to be done in a hurry. But if you look at King's Landing it's crystal clear. A whole wealth of episodes for Tyrion, Tywin, Joffrey and later Oberyn bumming around the city before the **** hits the fan. Yeah, they're great actors and characters but the entire rest of the show has to adapt or go away entirely depending on what is convenient for the KL plotline. I have serious problem with that. Yeah i think KL hogged the limelight up till season 4. Only really in second half of season 4 that Castle Black began to be built up again in terms of time. But frankly, it was only then that actual stuff started to happen.. Of course, there has to be a balance between spreading out the time and getting your strongest elements on the screen The average viewer detests Meereen and detests the fact it is holding Dany from pursuing her destiny in Westeros, so you can see why they wanted to not rile them up with more than they had to. The only theoretical options would be 1) move her on faster- a nightmare in terms of synchronising plots. or 2) turn Meereen into a fully alternative centre of gravity - e.g like the council meeting after the Son of the Harpy was found. I think they lost their nerve on that and didn't trust themselves to make a better job of it than GRRM [ his ADwD Meereen is a bucketful of who give a sh1t...] They could and should have done a bit more on the North. Nothing much happens in the Book Riverlands after the Red Wedding until Book 4 anyway. Lady Stoneheart would have been big zombie scratch of a record and was well cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) Re the show definitely finishing and the books not - yep, I tend to agree. Re this season being lower quality than other seasons, yep, I also tend to agree - but it was to be expected. This is the season with the shittiest source, that is also deviating from a lot of that source, to plot it's own route to the conclusion. Episode 7 was an improvement over previous episodes this season for dramatic impact. Let's see how it winds up and whether we are still vested in seeing what happens to Westeros and it's peoples next year. If we aren't and if the plot in season 6 seems equally as disjointed as the last 2 books and season 5, then yea, this series is fucked and we can be cynics. If not, if there is some hope of an interesting story proceeding into season 6, then it might just be able to get it's mojo back. Everyone has shit days. GRRM had a couple of shit books. The show can have a shit season. Some bits of the film The Two Towers were kind of shit (melodramatic Gandalf horse scene is laughable) - but the 3 films still tell a great story overall. Things can recover from loosing their way a bit around the middle. Edited May 29, 2015 by ummester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) Re the show definitely finishing and the books not - yep, I tend to agree.Re this season being lower quality than other seasons, yep, I also tend to agree - but it was to be expected. This is the season with the shittiest source, that is also deviating from a lot of that source, to plot it's own route to the conclusion. You can't have it both ways - either this season is worse because it's following the "bad" source material, or it's worse because it is deviating. To me it is clearly doing more of the latter. A proper season combining Feast/Dance could have been amazing. Even though they are widely regarded as Martin's weakest books they are still very good books, treasure troves of rich character development and with enough exciting plot points that with some of the fat trimmed they could have made an action packed 10 episodes. We have the Martells - a new family very distinct from the rest - seeking revenge, a new claimant to the throne revealing himself, Dany riding her dragons for the first time, Jon getting stabbed etc. etc. ETA: As for "everyone has shit days" I'm sorry but the problems that have been plaguing this Season have been pointed out by book purists since S2. Earlier even. This isn't just a bad season, it's the culmination of 5 years of increasingly poor writing. Edited May 29, 2015 by protar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravosi42 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 You can't have it both ways - either this season is worse because it's following the "bad" source material, or it's worse because it is deviating. To me it is clearly doing more of the latter. A proper season combining Feast/Dance could have been amazing. Even though they are widely regarded as Martin's weakest books they are still very good books, treasure troves of rich character development and with enough exciting plot points that with some of the fat trimmed they could have made an action packed 10 episodes. We have the Martells - a new family very distinct from the rest - seeking revenge, a new claimant to the throne revealing himself, Dany riding her dragons for the first time, Jon getting stabbed etc. etc. ETA: As for "everyone has shit days" I'm sorry but the problems that have been plaguing this Season have been pointed out by book purists since S2. Earlier even. This isn't just a bad season, it's the culmination of 5 years of increasingly poor writing. it can be worse for both reasons. Book purists have been bitching from the beginning, they have an inflated sense of the books and their own importance. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and the "Worst.Episode. Ever." gang are no different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 it can be worse for both reasons.Book purists have been bitching from the beginning, they have an inflated sense of the books and their own importance. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and the "Worst.Episode. Ever." gang are no different. So you think it's just a coincidence that people have been pointing out these same flaws - plot holes, inconsistent characterisation, sexism, shock value, uneven pace - for years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Eddard Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 So you think it's just a coincidence that people have been pointing out these same flaws - plot holes, inconsistent characterisation, sexism, shock value, uneven pace - for years? Are you talking about Feast and Dance or the show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Are you talking about Feast and Dance or the show? When do any of those - except arguably (but not in my opinion) uneven pace - happen in Feast and Dance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 When do any of those - except arguably (but not in my opinion) uneven pace - happen in Feast and Dance? They don't. The only legitimate criticism of Feast and Dance is that a few chapters should have been combined with others to say what needed to be said in less words and less POVs and Quentyn probably didn't need to be a POV. We could have learned about him and his relevance to the Dornish story in Arianne's POV and then he just shows up in Dany's POV in Meereen to fulfil his dragon-'taming' duty. Brienne's story is problematic because we know she's on a fruitless expedition, and perhaps we could have had less chapters of hers, but they do serve a purpose to the themes of Feast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I have regrets about it too- i think a core part of the issue was that 7 seasons flat was the target for a long time, and that now has shifted to 8 seasons. If they had known that when they were writing season 4, some different decisions could have been made - shifting Sansa and Little finger more into season 5; using the time gained to introduce the northern lords paying homage to the Boltons at Winterfell. I see the casting news for season 6 as indicating they are not rushing pell mell to the conclusion [ while still getting Dany the hell out of Meeren]. Septon Meribald is particularly encouraging in this regard. I seem to be in a minority here, but the quiet beauty of the Arya scenes;the Valyria scenes; everything about the High Sparrow himself and even the Sansa wedding in the Godswood shows me that they can still produce something top notch when they set their minds to it. I still have hope that liberated from meeting any book waymarks from here to the conclusion of season 8 they can plot a satisfying route What "plots" have they done that are not completely senseless? Yes, they can do dialogue. They can write good scenes. But, they don't seem to be able to put a cogent storyline together...every story they have invented has been riddled with implausible actions, logic fails and plot holes. So, I can't see how that now when they don't even have a meandering guideline of books that they are ignoring, this will make them improve things. It seems like we will get more weird campy stuff like Dorne, more scenes that feel and are disconnected from any type of normal plot progression. I'm also not sure they're going 8 seasons, especially with the ratings dropping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 What part of the truly horrendous Ironborn story we got last season are basing that groundless optimism from. And we really need a whole group of people that pride themselves on their enslaving and raping skills this season. Call me a critic, but I think Euron and Victarion's attidutes would perhaps be too much of good thing here. The Ironborn story from the books is great. Far better than the Martell story in the books. The show runners ruined the Ironborn last season and completely dropped it from the show. Where the F is Asha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Yeah i think KL hogged the limelight up till season 4. Only really in second half of season 4 that Castle Black began to be built up again in terms of time. But frankly, it was only then that actual stuff started to happen.. Of course, there has to be a balance between spreading out the time and getting your strongest elements on the screen The average viewer detests Meereen and detests the fact it is holding Dany from pursuing her destiny in Westeros, so you can see why they wanted to not rile them up with more than they had to. The only theoretical options would be 1) move her on faster- a nightmare in terms of synchronising plots. or 2) turn Meereen into a fully alternative centre of gravity - e.g like the council meeting after the Son of the Harpy was found. I think they lost their nerve on that and didn't trust themselves to make a better job of it than GRRM [ his ADwD Meereen is a bucketful of who give a sh1t...] They could and should have done a bit more on the North. Nothing much happens in the Book Riverlands after the Red Wedding until Book 4 anyway. Lady Stoneheart would have been big zombie scratch of a record and was well cut. Can't agree on Stoneheart. The viewers need something to cheer for, a reason to feel hopeful. This season they took out Bran, took out Rickon and Osha, and for whatever reason decided to make Sansa's life ever more miserable, and Arya is in a holding patter [why they haven't done more with Tom I have no idea...we should be seeing something more like her dialogues w/Charles Dance here....where they use the chemistry between those two actors and give us some back story..interspersed w/various other stuff with the FM..they've wasting his return]. Stoneheart and the brotherhood keeps a link to the RW, the Freys and all of those characters the viewer already knows, they could have invented something for these guys to do...and this is especially true as it looks like they bringing the Riverlands back next season. I agree on Meereen, viewers, like a lot of readers are sick of her stuck there and I feel they have done a fairly good job with that, other than wasting Selmy and his death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.