The true location of Dany's house with the red door

[Jak Scaletongue]

So, as I putz away at this thread (I haven't quite finished, but...) I can't help but notice the whole memory argument. I feel it necessary to point out that the varying ages of the commenter's does have something to do with this.

A 13/14 year old WILL remember more of their early life than a 30 year old. I'm not quite 30 myself, and the furthest back that I *know* is an actual memory is moving to our house when I was about 4 1/2. When I was 13/14 (about Dany's age), memories of earlier things were still relatively fresh. Half a lifetime later, many of those old memories have been forgotten in some dusty place in my brain that has newer memories stacked on top. My six year old remembers things from before she was talking in sentences - stuff I would never expect her to still remember 4+ years later. Some of it *I* barely remember!

So, I would have to say that it's possible that Lady Blizzardborn and SerMerynTrump have a bit of an age difference amongst themselves (as an example - I'm sure you two weren't the only ones arguing the point, but that's about where I am in the thread :) ). That might be where the memory differences are as well.

I'd like to ask any 13/14/15 year olds who may be hanging around to speak up and let us know how far back you remember - cause Dany's right around that age bracket, her childhood memories may be fresher in her mind than some of us older folks can remember.

[Clegane'sPup]

If Darry and the Targ loyalists made arrangements to remove Dany and her brother from Dragonstone before Stannis arrived with the ships that Robert ordered Stannis to have built, was Dany young enough to still require a wet nurse? When Dany left DS was she 9 months, 12 months, two years of age? Keep in mind that she was supposedly 5 when Darry died. She remembers a red door, a lemon tree and a house in Braavos. She does not remember ships and a ship is the only way to get from Dorne to Braavos or from Dragonstone to Braavos.

[Dorian Martell]

If Darry and the Targ loyalists made arrangements to remove Dany and her brother from Dragonstone before Stannis arrived with the ships that Robert ordered Stannis to have built, was Dany young enough to still require a wet nurse? When Dany left DS was she 9 months, 12 months, two years of age? Keep in mind that she was supposedly 5 when Darry died. She remembers a red door, a lemon tree and a house in Braavos. She does not remember ships and a ship is the only way to get from Dorne to Braavos or from Dragonstone to Braavos.

yes, because she was too young to remember the journey but had her formative years in bravos in the house with the red door and a lemon tree, possibly in a glass house. If she had her formative years in Dorne, she would remember a long sea voyage to the free cities

[Lord Wraith]

yes, because she was too young to remember the journey but had her formative years in bravos in the house with the red door and a lemon tree, possibly in a glass house. If she had her formative years in Dorne, she would remember a long sea voyage to the free cities

The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one Free City to the next half a step ahead of the Usurper's hired knives. She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air, and the vastness of horizons bounded only by a vault of azure sky above. It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion, slicing through the waves like silvery spears, and the flying fish they glimpsed now and again. She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish." ASOS Dany I

Dany moved around a lot. I'm not saying its true but its fun to contemplate for me.

[Lord Wraith]

If Doran was indeed protecting Dany in Dorne, in her beloved House with the red door, why wouldn't Doran tell that to Quentyn?

The Quentyn plot was doomed from the beginning and Doran plays his cards really close to his chest.

[Clegane'sPup]

yes, because she was too young to remember the journey but had her formative years in bravos in the house with the red door and a lemon tree, possibly in a glass house. If she had her formative years in Dorne, she would remember a long sea voyage to the free cities

Yep, Dorian, the answer was written in the book right under the nose that props up my glasses. :lol: I don't think it was a glass house, though.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea. Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

She did not remember Dragonstone either. They had run again, just before the Usurper's brother set sail with his new-built fleet. By then only Dragonstone itself, the ancient seat of their House, had remained of the Seven Kingdoms that had once been theirs. It would not remain for long. The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both, along with her wet nurse, and set sail under cover of darkness for the safety of the Braavosian coast.

She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

AGOT Daenerys I

[Alequo Adarys]

While GRRM does have many subtle things you can figure out in his books I think it is likely the lemongate is just mistake from him. He could have forgotten that he had Dany remembering lemon trees before he focused on the climate on Braavos when people started showing up there. Like the Jayne narrow hip thing.

I just do not see what the point of Dany growing up in Dorne would be, what effect it would have in the story. Twist should have meaning and unless this is a part of some very large plot I do not see the payoff at all.

And the marriage agreement was made in Sealord's palace and Viserys should know were he grew up.

You think that was a mistake? If so it's the worst writing in the entire series. I have a difficult time believing that

[Croyd_Crenson]

Isn't there a river near Dorne called the Orphans? Or was the children living on the boats called the Orphans? Either way I remember Orphans being the name of a people or a river on the east coast near Dorne. Dany and Viserys by all rights were Orphans.

[yanmaodao]

I really do not see the point of lemongate unless it's to set up that Dany is secretly not a Targaryen, which I would hate.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Isn't there a river near Dorne called the Orphans? Or was the children living on the boats called the Orphans? Either way I remember Orphans being the name of a people or a river on the east coast near Dorne. Dany and Viserys by all rights were Orphans.

The river is the Greenblood, the Rhoynish refugees who live there are the Orphans

[Lady Blizzardborn]

So, as I putz away at this thread (I haven't quite finished, but...) I can't help but notice the whole memory argument. I feel it necessary to point out that the varying ages of the commenter's does have something to do with this.

A 13/14 year old WILL remember more of their early life than a 30 year old. I'm not quite 30 myself, and the furthest back that I *know* is an actual memory is moving to our house when I was about 4 1/2. When I was 13/14 (about Dany's age), memories of earlier things were still relatively fresh. Half a lifetime later, many of those old memories have been forgotten in some dusty place in my brain that has newer memories stacked on top. My six year old remembers things from before she was talking in sentences - stuff I would never expect her to still remember 4+ years later. Some of it *I* barely remember!

So, I would have to say that it's possible that Lady Blizzardborn and SerMerynTrump have a bit of an age difference amongst themselves (as an example - I'm sure you two weren't the only ones arguing the point, but that's about where I am in the thread :) ). That might be where the memory differences are as well.

I'd like to ask any 13/14/15 year olds who may be hanging around to speak up and let us know how far back you remember - cause Dany's right around that age bracket, her childhood memories may be fresher in her mind than some of us older folks can remember.

Interesting point! I'll ask my oldest how far back he can remember. He's 15 so that's about right.

ETA: he says 4 years old. Didn't get specifics on how much he remembers of being 4, so I'll ask again when he's not in the middle of something.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Interesting point! I'll ask my oldest how far back he can remember. He's 15 so that's about right.

If I remember anything about being a teenager, make sure he's fully awake ;)

ETA: try to get a specific memory. He may have the age wrong (plus or minus). My mom's fixed a lot of those over the years!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If I remember anything about being a teenager, make sure he's fully awake ;)

ETA: try to get a specific memory. He may have the age wrong (plus or minus). My mom's fixed a lot of those over the years!

Will do!

[Lord Wraith]

I really do not see the point of lemongate unless it's to set up that Dany is secretly not a Targaryen, which I would hate.

It has nothing with her not being a Targ.

[Chinoiserie]

You think that was a mistake? If so it's the worst writing in the entire series. I have a difficult time believing that

GRRM not knowing at this point that lemon trees could not grow in Braavos is not the worst mistake ever. I would say he later just forgot that he had made Dany remember lemons in Braavos.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'm not sure that it's a question of Viserys tolerating a fake sister. I think it's a question of Viserys needing a sister, whether it be real or fake. Let's assume that Oberyn did arrange a marriage pact with Darry in Braavos. The pact was apparently kept secret because Doran would not want to risk war with the Iron Throne without additional allies. So basically Viserys needs currency to attract another party to his cause. Most alliances seem to be formed through marriage pacts. But Viserys is already promised to Arianne to obtain Dorne's approval. Viserys has no bargaining chip without another sibling to help form an alliance. My guess is at some point Darry makes clear to the boy that he needs to have a sister, to use as a bargaining chip to form an alliance. So out of Dorne we get a girl with the right look (and perhaps sufficient bloodlines if known) to fit the bill. It's up to Viserys then to help raise the girl as a Targaryen, which he does in his own charming way.

Yet it appears that Viserys was never personally aware of the betrothal between him and Arianne.

Also, there is a difference between raising a girl you are not related to as your sister, and raising a girl you are not related to as your sister while placing importance on her being of Targaryen blood, while clearly believing that those of Targaryen blood are much better than anyone else. Is it in Viserys' personality to allow someone who isn't a Targaryen to grow up believing she is, in fact, a Targaryen, having the blood of the dragon..? I personally don't think so.

[The Dames do Moan]

You think that was a mistake? If so it's the worst writing in the entire series. I have a difficult time believing that

Are you referring to the idea that got brought up that the lemon tree memory was a mistake? Or "Jeyne's hips" was a mistake, because her hips being different was confirmed as one and fixed in later versions.

Wasn't sure, saw you bolded the hips part but couldn't find the original post to see if it was just carryover formatting.

[Frey family reunion]

Yet it appears that Viserys was never personally aware of the betrothal between him and Arianne.

Also, there is a difference between raising a girl you are not related to as your sister, and raising a girl you are not related to as your sister while placing importance on her being of Targaryen blood, while clearly believing that those of Targaryen blood are much better than anyone else. Is it in Viserys' personality to allow someone who isn't a Targaryen to grow up believing she is, in fact, a Targaryen, having the blood of the dragon..? I personally don't think so.

Well it certainly might explain the utter disdain Viserys has for Dany. Granted he's a huge asshole and might have treated her this way anyway, but if Viserys knew she was not in fact his sister but he had to go through the pretense of treating her as his sister, this may have contributed to the way he viewed her. If you go back through Thrones, the only time Viserys calls her sister is when he is preparing to present her to Drogo, and at the end when he realizes he's about to be killed and he pleads for her help. Thus, the two times he needs her to help him get something. Every other time he refers to her as "you" or "slut". While Viserys seems to have a respect for his older brother, he has no respect for Dany whatsoever, though she is also supposedly Blood of the Dragon.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Considering that George is still pointing out the inconsistency of lemon trees in Braavos six books in, I think we can safely rule out that it was a mistake.

Yes, it's technically possible that some rich dude in Braavos had a house with a red door and a lemon tree with a big grassy yard all inside a climate controlled biodome that Dany doesn't remember. However, I fail to see how anyone can believe it's even remotely likely.

To those who refuse to believe because they don't see the point: George has yet to reveal the point. That's like saying you don't believe the Gravedigger is Sandor because George has yet to reveal the point of keeping Sandor alive.

[wefollowthecomet]

Yes, it's technically possible that some rich dude in Braavos had a house with a red door and a lemon tree with a big grassy yard all inside a climate controlled biodome that Dany doesn't remember. However, I fail to see how anyone can believe it's even remotely likely.

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Sealords-Palace.png

this is an official image of the Sealords palace. Complete with Fields of green, green houses, trees and a small house with a red roof (and probably a red door)