Heresy 168

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 168, this week’s edition of the popular thread taking a thoughtful and often sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Pray don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed or might have discussed over the years. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

Heresy is not of itself a theory and heretics do not take and hold a particular stance on issues, let alone a single one, but instead it’s a free-flowing and above all a friendly series of ongoing discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that the story is followed through five related story arcs, not one. Clearly the script has changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear from the synopsis that it does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s father, far less a return of the king scenario for the conclusion of an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and especially 1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

And, topically, remember the forum rules on not discussing the mummers’ version of the story outside of the sub-forum provided elsewhere on the site. Traditionally we’ve been a bit laid back about this, restricting discussion only to those matters of unequivocal relevance to Heresy, such as the Craster’s sons business. Don’t abuse this and we may still be able to slip under the radar. Try turning this into a general discussion of the show and the wrath of the Mods will descend, so let’s try to keep it business as usual

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Voice]

I was just Bumping for Benjen and started thinking about our favorite Uncle...

AGOT Jon III

Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest. That night he sought out his uncle in the great timbered common hall and pleaded to go with him. Benjen refused him curtly. "This is not Winterfell," he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. "On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you."

Stupidly, Jon argued. "I'll be fifteen on my name day," he said. "Almost a man grown."

Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.

Jon rose at dawn the next day to watch his uncle leave. One of his rangers, a big ugly man, sang a bawdy song as he saddled his garron, his breath steaming in the cold morning air. Ben Stark smiled at that, but he had no smile for his nephew. "How often must I tell you no, Jon? We'll speak when I return."

As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming?

Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men into the Haunted Forest to find what became of Ser Waymar's party. We know what became of them, but what became of these six men Benjen led?

1. Othor turned into a wight

2. Jafer Flowers turned into a wight

3. Stiv killed by Theon Greyjoy

4. Wallen killed by direwolves

That leaves two...

[TheSmallOther]

Eh, I still don't know how to properly quote posts from an already locked thread. This one comes from wolfmaid's post:

Its not the samething certainly mot on the scale we spoke of and "when" it happened. Which is when the Others came there was NOOOOOO help to mankind on a whole.It was one man who went looking for them and it took years to find them.Which only came when he was about to die or he thought he was about to die.

What if the problem lies with the man itself? That one who went looking for them? What if he had to pass all that cold, winter, deaths of his companions just to prove he is worth to get help? Like it's some sort of purgatory. We usually assume AA was good guy since at the end he managed to save mankind. But he could be a bad one at the begining.

I'm still thinking if Long Night was something which just came as (un)natural change of the season and was a bad lack to humanity. Or was it something more similar to punishment for sins of men. In the latter case COTF could assume the punishment was to be held and decided not to intervene. Or they were behind it themselves.

[wolfmaid7]

I was just Bumping for Benjen and started thinking about our favorite Uncle...

AGOT Jon III

Three days after their arrival, Jon had heard that Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men on a ranging into the haunted forest. That night he sought out his uncle in the great timbered common hall and pleaded to go with him. Benjen refused him curtly. "This is not Winterfell," he told him as he cut his meat with fork and dagger. "On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you."

Stupidly, Jon argued. "I'll be fifteen on my name day," he said. "Almost a man grown."

Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.

Jon rose at dawn the next day to watch his uncle leave. One of his rangers, a big ugly man, sang a bawdy song as he saddled his garron, his breath steaming in the cold morning air. Ben Stark smiled at that, but he had no smile for his nephew. "How often must I tell you no, Jon? We'll speak when I return."

As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming?

Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men into the Haunted Forest to find what became of Ser Waymar's party. We know what became of them, but what became of these six men Benjen led?

1. Othor turned into a wight

2. Jafer Flowers turned into a wight

3. Stiv killed by Theon Greyjoy

4. Wallen killed by direwolves

That leaves two...

Its not looking good for them either it seems.I woud like to think atlease one of them is getting his shag on...Somewhere.

Eh, I still don't know how to properly quote posts from an already locked thread. This one comes from wolfmaid's post:

What if the problem lies with the man itself? That one who went looking for them? What if he had to pass all that cold, winter, deaths of his companions just to prove he is worth to get help? Like it's some sort of purgatory. We usually assume AA was good guy since at the end he managed to save mankind. But he could be a bad one at the begining.

I'm still thinking if Long Night was something which just came as (un)natural change of the season and was a bad lack to humanity. Or was it something more similar to punishment for sins of men. In the latter case COTF could assume the punishment was to be held and decided not to intervene. Or they were behind it themselves.

Orrrr what if he was lured via dreams to go seek them.However this story got retold the teller may not of had intimate knowledge as the LH going on a quest.To them it may have simply been he decided to go look,when in reality he was contacted the way Bran was.

I also agree that man and his ways had a lot to do with it.They breed, war indiscrimantly,consume the natural resources with no regards to what they met there.I believe Westeros goes through an extinction cycle as a way to reset and this happens to be one of those cycles.Alot of people are going to die and i think only a remnant would remain.This society has reached that point where the switch needs to be flipped.

I was thinking about this in terms of Valyria as well,they had an extinction event and i won't be suprise if after 400yrs of having no socery or human abuse of such its probably recovered a bit. As long as people are freaked out about going there,or maybe there's a small group of people that settled there. :dunno:

[Black Crow]

Benjen Stark was to lead a half-dozen men into the Haunted Forest to find what became of Ser Waymar's party. We know what became of them, but what became of these six men Benjen led?

1. Othor turned into a wight

2. Jafer Flowers turned into a wight

3. Stiv killed by Theon Greyjoy

4. Wallen killed by direwolves

That leaves two...

Not at all convinced that Stiv and Hallen were Benjen's men. The impression I had was that they had deserted some time before and may have been with Mance for a time. There was no hint of anything involving Benjen - or that they were running from an encounter with Craster's boys.

[Black Crow]

Just to revert briefly to the matter of the children vis a vis men, I still think that my Native American parallel is accurate. Whilst we have that list of friendly encounters the big thing that's missing from the argument is that we're now a few thousand years down the line and in a very different Westeros. What's different is the Andals and their slaughtering of the children and burning of weirwoods. No matter how many men were allied to the children long ago far more turned against them and in the world now the children are facing extinction because men are the enemy.

[Black Crow]

What if the problem lies with the man itself? That one who went looking for them? What if he had to pass all that cold, winter, deaths of his companions just to prove he is worth to get help? Like it's some sort of purgatory. We usually assume AA was good guy since at the end he managed to save mankind. But he could be a bad one at the beginning.

I don't know if he was necessarily a "bad" man in the beginning, but I do think as we've discussed before that the searching both by the last of the heroes and by Bob the Builder were indeed quests in the traditional sense, just as Bran's journey to the cave has been, and that they were aided not just by chance met individuals [!] on the way and facing hardship and danger as they did so, but ultimately were drawn and guided to their goal as and when they were considered ready or rather worthy - and perhaps also by then drawn in so deeply that that there was no going back. Bran's story, for that reason not only echoes Marlow's journey into the Heart of Darkness to find Kurtz/Bloodraven but even more firmly and all the way up to the wights at the end echoes what we know of the Last Hero - and perhaps offers the thought that the latter wasn't being randomly pursued by the blue eyed lot but was being shepherded to where the children were waiting.

[Sly Wren]

Posted Today, 05:10 AM

TheSmallOther, on 25 May 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

What if the problem lies with the man itself? That one who went looking for them? What if he had to pass all that cold, winter, deaths of his companions just to prove he is worth to get help? Like it's some sort of purgatory. We usually assume AA was good guy since at the end he managed to save mankind. But he could be a bad one at the beginning.

I don't know if he was necessarily a "bad" man in the beginning, but I do think as we've discussed before that the searching both by the last of the heroes and by Bob the Builder were indeed quests in the traditional sense, just as Bran's journey to the cave has been, and that they were aided not just by chance met individuals [!] on the way and facing hardship and danger as they did so, but ultimately were drawn and guided to their goal as and when they were considered ready or rather worthy - and perhaps also by then drawn in so deeply that that there was no going back. Bran's story, for that reason not only echoes Marlow's journey into the Heart of Darkness to find Kurtz/Bloodraven but even more firmly and all the way up to the wights at the end echoes what we know of the Last Hero - and perhaps offers the thought that the latter wasn't being randomly pursued by the blue eyed lot but was being shepherded to where the children were waiting.

So, to both of your points--the last hero (if we can extrapolate from Bran's situation, which is an iffy process--but I will only do this for argument's sake) was in a kind of purgatory due to the actions of humans. Not that HE was "atoning" for sins, but dealing with consequences of humans' actions.

That's why he had to be "chosen" and "lead"--prepared. Bloodraven and the Children have been watching Bran and his pack of siblings. Someone got those wolf pups to them. The kids were "prepared" for the journey to the Children, particularly Bran. And The Children and Bloodraven had to watch carefully, prepare, and bring Bran to them (vs. going to him, which given his age and mobility issues would have seemed more sensible). They had to bring Bran to them because of humanity's difficult relationship with the Children. The millennia of mutual fascination, mutual distrust, and occasions of extreme violence.

In short, I'm thinking you could both be right.

Disclaimer--I do NOT believe that Bloodraven and/or the Children have "controlled" everything in the Stark kids lives or even Bran's life to get them "prepared." Not only do I dislike the idea personally, but Martin seems invested in showing us the agency of his characters, even as they are dealing with a world full of people intent on denying agency to anyone other than themselves (Cersei literally the queen of this). But that lack of Greek Fate-like control does not preclude "preparation"--Bran still has choices. He isn't "controlled." But he has been prepared and encouraged--and thus is more likely to seek out the Children and listen to what they have to say.

[Armstark]

I'm still thinking if Long Night was something which just came as (un)natural change of the season and was a bad lack to humanity. Or was it something more similar to punishment for sins of men. In the latter case COTF could assume the punishment was to be held and decided not to intervene. Or they were behind it themselves.

My thinking on why the CotF didn't intervene before the Last Hero is this: They were honoring the pact still. The Others are fundamentally men and thus the COtF agreed not to fight them in the pact. Along comes the Last Hero and convinces them that these are no men at all but something other.

Also shout out to wolfmaid and Voice! i am sorry I abandoned our last argument (~4 weeks ago) so abruptly - it was some good stuff. But I had to take a leave of absence from asoiaf.

[Black Crow]

I do NOT believe that Bloodraven and/or the Children have "controlled" everything in the Stark kids lives or even Bran's life to get them "prepared." Not only do I dislike the idea personally, but Martin seems invested in showing us the agency of his characters, even as they are dealing with a world full of people intent on denying agency to anyone other than themselves (Cersei literally the queen of this). But that lack of Greek Fate-like control does not preclude "preparation"--Bran still has choices. He isn't "controlled." But he has been prepared and encouraged--and thus is more likely to seek out the Children and listen to what they have to say.

Rather depends on how you define "control" of course: I don't think that Bran is being controlled but I do think that he has been invited, tempted and manipulated into his present position. However I do agree that he still has choices and however constrained a degree of freedom of action. In the synopsis transcribed above GRRM writes of how Bran will be drawn to magic first in attempt to be able to walk again and then for its own sake, which I suggest is exactly what we've seen. However in the latter part, relating to the Winds of Winter there's that business of maester and greenseer working together to save the world and I don't see that as a general alliance, but as Bran re-asserting himself and his identity and choosing to fight for the world of men

[Sly Wren]

FROM WOLMAID ABOVE: Posted Yesterday, 10:54 PM (sorry--I messed up my edit and was too lazy to retry--not a great way to start my argument)

"I also agree that man and his ways had a lot to do with it.They breed, war indiscrimantly,consume the natural resources with no regards to what they met there.I believe Westeros goes through an extinction cycle as a way to reset and this happens to be one of those cycles.Alot of people are going to die and i think only a remnant would remain.This society has reached that point where the switch needs to be flipped."

I was thinking about this in terms of Valyria as well,they had an extinction event and i won't be suprise if after 400yrs of having no socery or human abuse of such its probably recovered a bit. As long as people are freaked out about going there,or maybe there's a small group of people that settled there. :dunno: "

MY POINT: This may be wishful thinking, but I had been working under the assumption that the Doom of Valyria was a warning for this current story--watch out for your extreme behavior (on multiple counts). That if nothing is done, this could repeat itself in an icy way.

I'm not trying to Pollyanna my way out of this--but I did think this is why the Children have "prepared" Bran and brought him to Bloodraven--to avoid another extinction. That if a balance can be struck/restored, then the reset wouldn't require extinction this time around.

In short, I don't yet take it as a given that extinction is the only reset. Rather, that if a reset of balance isn't found, extinction will happen. This may be wishful thinking--I don't want certain characters to die and complete cataclysm never seems like a good storyline to me. But If extinction is the only option, why are the Children and Bloodraven working so hard to get Bran?

[Black Crow]

My thinking on why the CotF didn't intervene before the Last Hero is this: They were honoring the pact still. The Others are fundamentally men and thus the COtF agreed not to fight them in the pact. Along comes the Last Hero and convinces them that these are no men at all but something other.

Ah well there you and I at least will have to continue to disagree because I'm still of the view that whilst Craster's boys were once human, they and their masters from the Nights King downwards are those who allied with the children against the encroaching world of men.

[Sly Wren]

Rather depends on how you define "control" of course: I don't think that Bran is being controlled but I do think that he has been invited, tempted and manipulated into his present position. However I do agree that he still has choices and however constrained a degree of freedom of action. In the synopsis transcribed above GRRM writes of how Bran will be drawn to magic first in attempt to be able to walk again and then for its own sake, which I suggest is exactly what we've seen. However in the latter part, relating to the Winds of Winter there's that business of maester and greenseer working together to save the world and I don't see that as a general alliance, but as Bran re-asserting himself and his identity and choosing to fight for the world of men

Yes--I agree with this. Giving Bran agency does not preclude his being tempted, tricked, manipulated, guided, or any of the other verbs (positive or negative) that imply influence. And, as you say, Bran does seem likely to assert himself despite any influence. All the Stark kids have strong senses of identity. And that identity gives them power to assert their own agency despite all that happens to them.

[Sly Wren]

My thinking on why the CotF didn't intervene before the Last Hero is this: They were honoring the pact still. The Others are fundamentally men and thus the COtF agreed not to fight them in the pact. Along comes the Last Hero and convinces them that these are no men at all but something other.

So, to clarify, you're asserting that the fight between the First Men and the Others was a "human" conflict and therefore the Children wouldn't intervene? Because the Children hadn't noticed that the Others were rather inhuman? The Children seem rather observant. And the Others aren't subtle (once they show up). Not sure this works--needs thinking on.

[Black Crow]

Yes--I agree with this. Giving Bran agency does not preclude his being tempted, tricked, manipulated, guided, or any of the other verbs (positive or negative) that imply influence. And, as you say, Bran does seem likely to assert himself despite any influence. All the Stark kids have strong senses of identity. And that identity gives them power to assert their own agency despite all that happens to them.

Indeed and its worth remembering just how central to this story the question of identity really is, and therein ultimately may be the biggest argument against R+L=J being as significant as some like to proclaim. Its primarily a story about the Stark children, their diaspora and in the end the reaffirmation of their identity as children of Winterfell. Bran, crippled and vulnerable is drawn to magic and the dark side; Arya, cut adrift is fighting against becoming no-one; Sansa, having rejected her family and betrayed her father is finding her way back to Winterfell [and perhaps to Jon] while Jon Snow the bastard is also at bottom a son of Winterfell and it is his affirmation of that rather than the chimera of the Iron Throne which will in the end define him.

[Sly Wren]

Indeed and its worth remembering just how central to this story the question of identity really is, and therein ultimately may be the biggest argument against R+L=J being as significant as some like to proclaim. Its primarily a story about the Stark children, their diaspora and in the end the reaffirmation of their identity as children of Winterfell. Bran, crippled and vulnerable is drawn to magic and the dark side; Arya, cut adrift is fighting against becoming no-one; Sansa, having rejected her family and betrayed her father is finding her way back to Winterfell [and perhaps to Jon] while Jon Snow the bastard is also at bottom a son of Winterfell and it is his affirmation of that rather than the chimera of the Iron Throne which will in the end define him.

Agreed--which is why I find the argument that Jon will end up on the Iron Throne with Dany (assuming they'd both fit) unconvincing. The point of the story does not seem to be the Iron Throne--especially not for the Starks. Their multiple, individual hero journeys (where they are all now in various sorts of underworlds, presumably to find/receive important knowledge to prepare them to assert themselves in their individual "battles") are about finding out who they are so they can do what they need to do. But who they are is Starks. Individual Starks who need to figure out what that identity means for them. And Starks belong in Winterfell.

Incidentally, I've been starting to think the same might be true for Dany (the identity part, not the Winterfell part)--her identity is more important than the Throne. But I get frustrated with the Mereen business and have trouble paying proper attention, so I may be off.

One more tangent: been suspecting/wishing for a while that Sansa's storyline has elements of Branwen from the Mabinogian. Where the captive and abused Queen Branwen teaches starlings to speak so can send messages to her brother King Bran (and her other brothers) to come and rescue her. Sansa seems to be being set up to be the family "Singer" (in the least Partridge Family sense possible)--all the bird stuff (obviously), no one is more interested in songs than she is, but she is disillusioned (to put it mildly) with the songs she's learned--ready to learn new ones, maybe? Plus she hears things on the wind. She "hears" while the rest of her siblings have dreams/visions. This could very easily be wishful thinking--I like the story of Branwen. But I'm wondering.

And I am warming up to the theory of Sansa replacing Arya as potential union with Jon--imagery in novels is compelling.

And this went on longer than intended--stopping now.

[Black Crow]

Agreed--which is why I find the argument that Jon will end up on the Iron Throne with Dany (assuming they'd both fit) unconvincing. The point of the story does not seem to be the Iron Throne--especially not for the Starks. Their multiple, individual hero journeys (where they are all now in various sorts of underworlds, presumably to find/receive important knowledge to prepare them to assert themselves in their individual "battles") are about finding out who they are so they can do what they need to do. But who they are is Starks. Individual Starks who need to figure out what that identity means for them. And Starks belong in Winterfell.

Incidentally, I've been starting to think the same might be true for Dany (the identity part, not the Winterfell part)--her identity is more important than the Throne. But I get frustrated with the Mereen business and have trouble paying proper attention, so I may be off.

One more tangent: been suspecting/wishing for a while that Sansa's storyline has elements of Branwen from the Mabinogian. Where the captive and abused Queen Branwen teaches starlings to speak so can send messages to her brother King Bran (and her other brothers) to come and rescue her. Sansa seems to be being set up to be the family "Singer" (in the least Partridge Family sense possible)--all the bird stuff (obviously), no one is more interested in songs than she is, but she is disillusioned (to put it mildly) with the songs she's learned--ready to learn new ones, maybe? Plus she hears things on the wind. She "hears" while the rest of her siblings have dreams/visions. This could very easily be wishful thinking--I like the story of Branwen. But I'm wondering.

And I am warming up to the theory of Sansa replacing Arya as potential union with Jon--imagery in novels is compelling.

And this went on longer than intended--stopping now.

Oh again we're very much in agreement here, not just as to the question of identity, but also as to Sansa and the Branwen parallel. I don't know how early in the writing of the story GRRM may have decided to switch the connection with Jon from Arya to herself, but I think that this is the principal reason for her being substituted for the false Arya in the stripped down mummers' version and that its all foreshadowed by the snowflake communion.

[Voice]

Not at all convinced that Stiv and Hallen were Benjen's men. The impression I had was that they had deserted some time before and may have been with Mance for a time. There was no hint of anything involving Benjen - or that they were running from an encounter with Craster's boys.

Just an impression, to be sure. Not a fact. But if Stiv and Wallen (not Hallen) had been with Mance for a time, they would not still be wearing the black.

Bran V AGOT

"No more than a scratch," the maester said. He wet a cloth in the stream to clean the cut. "Two of them wear the black," he told Robb as he worked.

Robb glanced over at where Stiv lay sprawled in the stream, his ragged black cloak moving fitfully as the rushing waters tugged at it. "Deserters from the Night's Watch," he said grimly. "They must have been fools, to come so close to Winterfell."

"Folly and desperation are ofttimes hard to tell apart," said Maester Luwin.

You will remember that the first encounter, when Jon was brought before Mance. Mance faced the decision to either execute him, or accept him. And what was the first order of business to attend once Jon had been accepted?

Jon I ASOS

Mance Rayder rose, unfastened the clasp that held his cloak, and swept it over the bench. “It was for this.”

“

A cloak?”

“The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch,” said the King-beyond-the-Wall. “One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadowcat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?” He chuckled. “It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me.” He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. “But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears… and most of all, no red. The men of the Night’s Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.

“I left the next morning… for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose.” He closed the clasp and sat back down again. “And you, Jon Snow?”

Jon took another swallow of mead. There is only one tale that he might believe. “You say you were at Winterfell, the night my father feasted King Robert.”

“I did say it, for I was.”

“Then you saw us all. Prince Joffrey and Prince Tommen, Princess Myrcella, my brothers Robb and Bran and Rickon, my sisters Arya and Sansa. You saw them walk the center aisle with every eye upon them and take their seats at the table just below the dais where the king and queen were seated.”

“I remember.”

“And did you see where I was seated, Mance?” He leaned forward. “Did you see where they put the bastard?”

Mance Rayder looked at Jon’s face for a long moment. “I think we had best find you a new cloak,” the king said, holding out his hand.

There was no hint of anything involving Benjen - or that they were running from an encounter with Craster's boys.

We don't know Benjen encountered anyone, let along one of Craster's suckling babes. But it does seem they are fleeing white walkers, whether from rumors of their return, or a direct encounter. And, it's not completely accurate to say that there's no hint of anything involving Benjen. The gaunt man seems quite familiar with Stark behavior, and laughs as if it's something he's seen often and recent:

Bran flared. "I'm Brandon Stark of Winterfell, and you better let go of my horse, or I'll see you all dead."

The gaunt man with the grey stubbled face laughed. "The boy's a Stark, true enough. Only a Stark would be fool enough to threaten where smarter men would beg."

"Cut his little co**ck off and stuff it in his mouth," suggested the short woman. "That should shut him up."

"You're as stupid as you are ugly, Hali," said the tall woman. "The boy's worth nothing dead, but alive . . . gods be damned, think what Mance would give to have Benjen Stark's own blood to hostage!"

"Mance be damned," the big man cursed. "You want to go back there, Osha? More fool you. Think the white walkers will care if you have a hostage?" He turned back to Bran and slashed at the strap around his thigh. The leather parted with a sigh.

Again, just an impression. But it's not baseless. In any case, it only changes our missing men under Benjen's command from two to four. If they were wighted, why weren't they with Othor and Jafer?

I doubt any of us imagine Benjen returning, or being found, any way but alone. I tend to think his men deserted. Mayhaps they saw him threaten where smarter men would beg.

[Matthew.]

My thinking on why the CotF didn't intervene before the Last Hero is this: They were honoring the pact still. The Others are fundamentally men and thus the COtF agreed not to fight them in the pact. Along comes the Last Hero and convinces them that these are no men at all but something other.

I think this is actually an intriguing possibility. While I agree with the BC that what we call the "white walkers" are not human, that doesn't mean that whoever/whatever is raising white walkers isn't human, and wasn't human even during the original Long Night.

So, as a generic example, if we say that the white walkers and wights of the Long Night were being raised by House Stark to conquer their fellow men, the CotF may have perceived this as a war that they had no part in.