Heresy 168

[Voice]

My thinking on why the CotF didn't intervene before the Last Hero is this: They were honoring the pact still. The Others are fundamentally men and thus the COtF agreed not to fight them in the pact. Along comes the Last Hero and convinces them that these are no men at all but something other.

Also shout out to wolfmaid and Voice! i am sorry I abandoned our last argument (~4 weeks ago) so abruptly - it was some good stuff. But I had to take a leave of absence from asoiaf.

You'll have to refresh my memory Armstark... so many debates since then haha

[Armstark]

You'll have to refresh my memory Armstark... so many debates since then haha

Sphinxes, ghost grass and glass candles. I might read over the posts again and do a write up because I think you were about to put some holes in my theory. But I think now is not the time to open that debate again.

[Voice]

Sphinxes, ghost grass and glass candles. I might read over the posts again and do a write up because I think you were about to put some holes in my theory. But I think now is not the time to open that debate again.

Oh haha cool. Rings a bell now. Glass candles are a fascinating topic.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

@ BC you compare the COTF with native americans and in the same breathe compare Brans story to The heart of darkness, seems like a layup to compare them to those africans affected by the european colonization Plus the native americans were taken out by disease more then anything else so a better comparison would be to any people that got over ran by numbers and more advanced weapons.

@ wolfmaid You say the COTF are operating in secret but everyone north of the wall seems to know about them so not much of a secret. The fact they aren't south of the wall has more to do with them not being remembered than them going all out stealth.

And as a side note last thread you kept saying "seriously" and " are you serious" to Voice Of the FM he's obvioiusly serious so you sound like your calling him stupid for sharing his ideas because he doesnt see your point which for the most part is based on how you feel a "normal" person would or should react in certain situations and not based on textual evidence.

[Voice]

And as a side note last thread you kept saying "seriously" and " are you serious" to Voice Of the FM he's obvioiusly serious so you sound like your calling him stupid for sharing his ideas because he doesnt see your point which for the most part is based on how you feel a "normal" person would or should react in certain situations and not based on textual evidence.

Yup. I've been getting PM's from lurkers wondering why I bother with Heresy. I keep telling them that it's the most informed and open-minded place on Westeros. So while I'm defending myself over here, against what they call "the ignorance of certain heretics," I'm also defending the thread itself in PM's. Quite an interesting process!

I think wolfmaid may yet prove me wrong though. LOL

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Funny thing is i agree with her a lot on how people/COTF should react to certain situations i just don't know if they did which means its just an opinion with out much to back it up.

[Sly Wren]

@ BC you compare the COTF with native americans and in the same breathe compare Brans story to The heart of darkness, seems like a layup to compare them to those africans affected by the european colonization Plus the native americans were taken out by disease more then anything else so a better comparison would be to any people that got over ran by numbers and more advanced weapons.

@ wolfmaid You say the COTF are operating in secret but everyone north of the wall seems to know about them so not much of a secret. The fact they aren't south of the wall has more to do with them not being remembered than them going all out stealth.

I'm neither of these people but am diving in anyway.

Absolutely--the African Colonization does mirror the "overrun by numbers and weapons" scenario described as happening to the children. But the follow up society structure maybe not so much. I've been trying to think of European accounts that discuss the Africans as having special knowledge that might lead people to seek them out, or change religions (as Voice points out the First Men do for the Children)--a bit with voodoo, but that seems to be more in the Americas than the European colonists in Africa itself--if anything, African knowledge gets very demonized or even infantilized--Kurtz going native, all those missionary narratives talking about the "benighted races," slave narratives, Oroonoko, etc. By all means correct me if I'm making no sense. And really correct me if you have better examples.

But Native Americans, although also demonized and rejected--in current American society, there is still at least a lip-service to their knowledge. Granted, it is frequently cheesy or downright racist--sports logos, the portrayal of wise men and shamans in movies--but the lip service is kind of like that relationship the Europeans have to fairies in folklore (see previous thread)--Americans see Native Americans as special--even if they usually want to market that special knowledge into something like a celebrity retreat in a sweat lodge. But Americans don't want to look at how badly Native Americans are treated and isolated, don't want to see that the lip service doesn't really recognize their value. Without that, lasting communication and healthy co-existence of cultures can be difficult.

Which is how I see those stories about the First Men and the Children. Like humans and fairies. Yes--respect and even awe. Enough to change religions and seek them out for special knowledge, occasional alliances. But still--so different as to be frightening. So lasting alliances would be really hard--short term, infrequent alliances seem more likely. Children feel the same way--see that they are both valued and feared--and stay north of the Wall.

[wolfmaid7]

@ BC you compare the COTF with native americans and in the same breathe compare Brans story to The heart of darkness, seems like a layup to compare them to those africans affected by the european colonization Plus the native americans were taken out by disease more then anything else so a better comparison would be to any people that got over ran by numbers and more advanced weapons.

@ wolfmaid You say the COTF are operating in secret but everyone north of the wall seems to know about them so not much of a secret. The fact they aren't south of the wall has more to do with them not being remembered than them going all out stealth.

And as a side note last thread you kept saying "seriously" and " are you serious" to Voice Of the FM he's obvioiusly serious so you sound like your calling him stupid for sharing his ideas because he doesnt see your point which for the most part is based on how you feel a "normal" person would or should react in certain situations and not based on textual evidence.

That's kind of not what i said atlease not in the context you are putting forth......I specifically said and gave a quote from Osha that relationships beyond the Wall are different and how there may or may not be alliances. I also said and you can go back to my post and quote which stated South of the Wall there is a belief that the Children are dead and that still hold true because the only person who knows that to the contrary is Bran. The operating in secret statement holds true because the Children or BR didn't walk up to Winterfell with an invite for Bran.It was done covertly via dreams to lure him out of Winterfell.

Voice of the First Men is one of the most intelligent people i've never had the pleasure to meet because he thinks out of the box. Me saying "seriously" was not meant to call him stupid and its certainly not meant to stop him from saying what he thinks else i would say so. Its my way of saying disagree especially with someone i joke around with and he and i joke around alot.If Voice was offended by what i said and how i did which was noth intended he could PM me about. We're from the Bay we down like that.

I don't agree in totality with what Voice concerning the relationship with the Children on a whole because its bot an apple to apple comparison with the Native Americans and because i think there is enough subtle and overt hints that says it was not a homogenious relationship which is the point i was making.Some Children and their Greenseers with some men but not all of them.

Yup. I've been getting PM's from lurkers wondering why I bother with Heresy. I keep telling them that it's the most informed and open-minded place on Westeros. So while I'm defending myself over here, against what they call "the ignorance of certain heretics," I'm also defending the thread itself in PM's. Quite an interesting process!

I think wolfmaid may yet prove me wrong though. LOL

Geeze sometimes i thing people take certain interactions very seriously.If i wan't and have a reason to take a certain tone or disagree with someone to the point of making it unpleasent we can over the War of words with ATS. If i wanted to call an idea or someone stupid i won't hide behind words like "seriously" i will come right out and say its stupid or they are.I believe no one here meets that criteria.

[wolfmaid7]

Funny thing is i agree with her a lot on how people/COTF should react to certain situations i just don't know if they did which means its just an opinion with out much to back it up.

I'm not invisible you can direct it at me....lol. For me its a matter of going to the text and seeing what it says in totality

Was the relationship between men and COTF/Greensers across the board?

Was all the clans of men and COTF on the same page?

When the pact on the IOF made did that pact represent all parties?

The answer to that is no...Why?.....Post text and thinking in a bit.

"In the North they tell tales of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest............"Alone he finally reached the Children,despite the efforts of the white walkers and all the tales agree this was the turning point."

The main series backs this up and i use this from the World book because to me it sums it up to the point i don't need to go further.

The Children never got involved until he found them.We can speculate what the deal was,nothing is for free so he had to give up something.It is my belief that what he gave up,the only thing he had to offer was himself.No one sent him to go look for them.He and some companions thought that was their only hope.

Secondly, and this is a matter of it being sense. Them not knowing what was going on with respect to the humans is not possible they would of had a Greenseer who could go beyond the trees.They would have had Skinchangers who could peak. They knew the kingdoms of men were falling and did nothing.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

@ wolfmaid Do we have any evidence of the COTF ever not acting together does it say somewhere in the WB that COTF factions fought eachother or as far as we know have they always been cohesive? I dont have the WB at hand so thats actually a question but i dont think we have anything saying they fought eachother do we? So was the relationship all good across the board with all greenseers and COTF i dunno i would assume not but i have no evidence to back that up

[Voice]

Funny thing is i agree with her a lot on how people/COTF should react to certain situations i just don't know if they did which means its just an opinion with out much to back it up.

I agree as well. As I told BC, of course some resistance and revolt would be reasonable. But the text doesn't support a realistic portrayal of colonization. Which is ok. That's not it's purpose. I'm very grateful for this actually, as such a series would be boring (for me at least), and far less thought provoking.

As I pointed out in this post, there are things in the text which mirror such indigenous resistance, but it comes from Singer-FM Alliances vs Andal Invasion, rather than an outcry of Singers vs the First Men.

That's kind of not what i said atlease not in the context you are putting forth......I specifically said and gave a quote from Osha that relationships beyond the Wall are different and how there may or may not be alliances. I also said and you can go back to my post and quote which stated South of the Wall there is a belief that the Children are dead and that still hold true because the only person who knows that to the contrary is Bran. The operating in secret statement holds true because the Children or BR didn't walk up to Winterfell with an invite for Bran.It was done covertly via dreams to lure him out of Winterfell.

Voice of the First Men is one of the most intelligent people i've never had the pleasure to meet because he thinks out of the box. Me saying "seriously" was not meant to call him stupid and its certainly not meant to stop him from saying what he thinks else i would say so. Its my way of saying disagree especially with someone i joke around with and he and i joke around alot.If Voice was offended by what i said and how i did which was noth intended he could PM me about. We're from the Bay we down like that.

I don't agree in totality with what Voice concerning the relationship with the Children on a whole because its bot an apple to apple comparison with the Native Americans and because i think there is enough subtle and overt hints that says it was not a homogenious relationship which is the point i was making.Some Children and their Greenseers with some men but not all of them.

Geeze sometimes i thing people take certain interactions very seriously.If i wan't and have a reason to take a certain tone or disagree with someone to the point of making it unpleasent we can over the War of words with ATS. If i wanted to call an idea or someone stupid i won't hide behind words like "seriously" i will come right out and say its stupid or they are.I believe no one here meets that criteria.

I've said far worse things than "seriously" to you before, wolfmaid. LOL

I think we're both pretty thick-skinned. Compared to General, this was a pillowfight.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

@ sly wren i wasnt actually making the comparison just thought it'd be an easy transition from Heart of Darkness. I do see a lot of "noble savage" in the COTF folklore but i've always thought of them being uniquely GRRM's creatures similar to Tolkiens elves with out as much magic

[wolfmaid7]

@ wolfmaid Do we have any evidence of the COTF ever not acting together does it say somewhere in the WB that COTF factions fought eachother or as far as we know have they always been cohesive? I dont have the WB at hand so thats actually a question but i dont think we have anything saying they fought eachother do we? So was the relationship all good across the board with all greenseers and COTF i dunno i would assume not but i have no evidence to back that up

We don't have them fighting each other which is not weird to be honest.I don't think they would,we do have different factions fighting alonside different factions of humans.Voice posted a good few of them ending last thread.

"As with the First men before them the Andals proved bitter enemies to the remaining children.........so the Andal drove them out of all the deep woods the pact had once given them.Weakened and grown insular over the years ,the children lacked whatever advantages they had over the First Men.And what the First men could never succede in doing-eradicating the children.The Andals did in short order."

"It is possible a few survived on the isle of faces ,as some have written under the protection of the green men,whom the Andals never succeeded in destrying." WB pg 19.

I pulled these two out in addition because a gain i don't think the writer was describing the children as one people but what happened to different factions.

The World book even talked about Gendel and Gorne settling a despute between a clan of Children and a family of Giants,though he outasmarted both of them.

So we don't see them fighting eachother at all.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

And im glad you guys are friends makes me feel much better

[wolfmaid7]

I agree as well. As I told BC, of course some resistance and revolt would be reasonable. But the text doesn't support a realistic portrayal of colonization. Which is ok. That's not it's purpose. I'm very grateful for this actually, as such a series would be boring (for me at least), and far less thought provoking.

As I pointed out in this post, there are things in the text which mirror such indigenous resistance, but it comes from Singer-FM Alliances vs Andal Invasion, rather than an outcry of Singers vs the First Men.

I've said far worse things than "seriously" to you before, wolfmaid. LOL

I think we're both pretty thick-skinned. Compared to General, this was a pillowfight.

Lol you know, you my boy.

Agreed,i don't think the relationship followed the normal coventions of colonialization myself and i think to follow the patterns.Different clans did their own thing.So i find it intriguing and something worth considering how well recieved was the Pact on the isle of faces. Was it something they all agreed to or just some.This is just a subtle observation,i don't think the COTF understood the art of War and handled the FM as united front i think wherever clans met resistance they and their greenseers fought to the best of their ability.

[Sly Wren]

@ sly wren i wasnt actually making the comparison just thought it'd be an easy transition from Heart of Darkness. I do see a lot of "noble savage" in the COTF folklore but i've always thought of them being uniquely GRRM's creatures similar to Tolkiens elves with out as much magic

Yes on the elves--thus, my reference to my fairy argument (which is a weird phrase).

And apologies for attributing an argument to you which you didn't mean to make--I read too fast.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Overall i hope the COTF are as complex a species as any humans would be and REALLY hope they dont go on being the "noble savage" that were led to believe they are at first glance. All that being said I'm more worried about the logistics of what the author would have to do to wrap up the book and give us enough knowledge about the COTF to satisfy us. And in general when thinking about the book i try to think about what would the author do more than what would "I" or "people" do. Thats why i feel like a lot of things we discuss on here may very well never even get touched in the books

[Sly Wren]

Quick clarification--I'm not really arguing "noble savage," but "mystical knowledge." That's where I think the Native American argument fits in with my take on the Children. I still think the Children are too powerful and different to ever really be "safe" in human eyes.

And I, too, hope they don't just stay the odd, distant creatures we've been shown so far. Trying to think how Martin could construct a POV that wouldn't "otherize" the Children--at present, I've got nothing.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Overall i hope the COTF are as complex a species as any humans would be and REALLY hope they dont go on being the "noble savage" that were led to believe they are at first glance. All that being said I'm more worried about the logistics of what the author would have to do to wrap up the book and give us enough knowledge about the COTF to satisfy us. And in general when thinking about the book i try to think about what would the author do more than what would "I" or "people" do. Thats why i feel like a lot of things we discuss on here may very well never even get touched in the books

Sometimes I feel the same way. There is so much leftout from the Others and cotf and the Long Night and NK etc. Plus Dany and King's Landing and Dorne and blah blah blah, how will it all fit into 2 books. Hopefully the next two will be mammoth sized books.

[wolfmaid7]

Overall i hope the COTF are as complex a species as any humans would be and REALLY hope they dont go on being the "noble savage" that were led to believe they are at first glance. All that being said I'm more worried about the logistics of what the author would have to do to wrap up the book and give us enough knowledge about the COTF to satisfy us. And in general when thinking about the book i try to think about what would the author do more than what would "I" or "people" do. Thats why i feel like a lot of things we discuss on here may very well never even get touched in the books

Sadly,imo and its a real sad statement i'm going to make i think the Children themselves are gullible and are being used. I don't think they have the cunning and strategic mindset that humans have.They have a kind of honor that just doesn't fit in the World of men,a person's word may mean nothing. While they may have held through to some ancient pact the people who forged this with them have forgotten and its broken over and over again.A handshake isn't as trustworthy as the picture on the Wiki shows.

I had a feeling when i did my research for the "Those who sing thread,"that there was a symbiotic relatinship between the COTF and the Greenseers with respect to the songs the children sing.And to go back to the WB when the breaking of the Arm occured the singing of the songs and their sacrifices caused the gods "to stir" so maybe this is why they are needed.I got this idea from the Yagui people but also Stargate-SG1.

When the visited that plantet with the people that looked like "Roll ons" their song had an effect on the plants and the plants on them....The whole idea of talking and singing to your plants comes into mind lol.