True origin of the Others/White Walkers

[Lordsteve666]

I'd like to discuss what people think the true origins of the Others is.

If you go by the rough timeline in the world book they first appear on the scene during the Long Night, they've never been mentioned before that.

The continent of Westeros is pretty big but not massive and we already know the CotF live in the far north as that's where Bran meets them. It stands to reason if a deadly force of otherworldly white walkers lives up there they'd have met them long before the LN.

So how is it that despite the Children of the Forest being on Westeros for thousands of years prior to the the coming of the First Men or the Long Night have never come into conflict with them?

This is why I believe they didn't exist until the LN, which leads on to some interesting possibilities.

We have some vague evidence that the LN might possible have been caused by human actions, with a hint that such actions caused something on a celestial level. It's been speculated that unrest in the Great Empire of the Dawn upset the gods. It seems to be suggested that because of the blood betrayal by the emperor the sun (Maiden made of Light) went away and the night (Lion of Night) came out. That sounds a lot to me like a something causing a nuclear winter or similar effect.

My crazy theory based on all of this is that this "nuclear winter" or Long Night did so much damage to Planetos that it did more than just mess up the seasons. It froze the Rhoyne all the way down to the Selhoru, it caused famine and terror in most places.

But it also created the Others, not just by creating them out of thin air, but by them being unwilling casualties and transformed into their current forms. Imagine what a possibly magical nuclear winter type event could do to a civilization that lived at a high latitude already. They'd be trapped by ice and freezing temperatures and possibly be bombarded with magical fallout. If the LN possibly messed up the Shadowlands by turning it into a shadowy poisoned wasteland then imagine it's affects in the far north.

I think that the Others are simply the way they are because they were transformed against their will, unwitting participants in a event that happened thousands of miles away and messed up the whole planet. What their goals are who knows, maybe they want revenge and are bitter and twisted only seeking vengeance.

Anyway that's my crazy theory, what about other people?

[Adam de Felden]

I have always thought that the Others were a symptom of the Long NIght rather than a cause of it. Likewise I believe that there is celestial origin for the Long Night. Having read with interest the Astronomy of Planetos series by Lucifer Means Lightbringer, I am polishing my own theory about the Long Night which I shall post shortly.

The question of what the Children knew about the Others both during and since the Long Night is intrigueing indeed. A further question is that the length of the Long Night is unclear, we know it was lengthy, it lasted generations but how many is an open question. I see the Others, like you, to be a twisted form of some other life, but as to their motivations, I think that there is likely more too it than revenge.

[LmL]

Did some say my name? :)

Yes, great thoughts all. Your crazy theory is not so crazy - check out my essays in my sig to see the research I have done into this. Voice of the First Men has a great essay called "Heirarchy of Others," which you should definitely check out. I don't have the link handy but it's in his signature, and his comments are all over my threads. He's got an idea about the Others being a kind of antibody produced by the earth to deal with AA's out of control fire magic, something like that. I tend to see it as the Others and ice magic in general filling a void created by the weakening / corruption of fire magic in to the shadow. Ice and fire are in balance, a state of equilibrium, and then the comet destroyed one of our moons - the fire moon, according to my theory. I think the shadow by Asshai might used to have been more like the heart of winter - a heart of summer, pure fire energy. So when it's correspond moon blew up, the heart of fire became the heart of darkness, the shadow. Anyway lots of detail about this in my essays, take a look when you have some time to kill (lots of research... Sorry).

Adam, be sure to let me know when you type up your ideas, I'd love to take a look. I am working my way to discussing the Others, but I certainly don't have things figured out yet. Mostly I have a ton of notes and some ideas... Anyway be sure to comment on one of my threads with a link to your essay so everyone can check it out. It's an astronomy community - everyone is working on things from slightly different angles. I can take credit for breaking open the seal on the astronomical layer of metaphor, but we all have to work on unravelling the whole thing. It's huge and complex and confusing... So all ideas are welcome. Cheers.

[LmL]

I also tend to think that human greenseers had something to do with the creation of the Others. Lots of notes on this, and the idea is out there... Hopefully I can put it together at some point.

[LmL]

Why does this Gardener King think he can raise an army of the undead? A curious thing for a keeper of the sacred order of the greenhand....

Here too the First Men strove against the children of the forest, rooting them out of their sacred groves and hollow hills, hewing down their weirwoods with great bronze axes. {…} And yet there was a difference, in degree if not in kind, for almost all the noble houses of the reach shared a common ancestry, deriving as they did from garth Greenhand and his many children. It was that kinship, many scholars have suggested, that gave House Gardener the primacy in the centuries that followed; no petty could ever hope to rival the power of Highgarden, where Garth the gardener’s descendants sat upon a living throne (the Oakenseat)that grew fro man oak that Garth Greenhand himself had planted, and wore crowns of vines and flowers when at peace, and crowns of bronze thorns (later iron) when they rode to war. Others might style themselves kings, but the Gardeners were the unquestioned High Kings, and lesser monarchs did them honor, if not obeisance.

In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davis the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor - and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (grey eyes).

{AFTER THE ANDALS ARRIVE}

Gwayne IV (the Gods-fearing) sent his warriors searching out the children of the forest, in hopes that the greenseers and their magic could halt the invaders. Mern II (the Mason) built a new curtain wall around Highgarden and commanded his lords banner men to see to their own defenses. Mer II (the Madling) showered gold and honors on a woods witch who claimed that she could raise armies of the dead to throw the Andals back.

[Lordsteve666]

Hmm i'd never considered that they could be part of a magical balancing act.

Would that not mean there could or should be a fire equivalent somewhere on Planetos as well then? Dragons, maybe but they seen a little out of place if they are something like that.I get the impression that the Valyrian dragons were more of a natural creature, or at least those found in the 14 Flames were. Other older dragons or their origins could have magical aspects i suppose.

I've always had the impression that although there is magic in ASOIAF it's not as powerful as it would be in some high fantasy books. Magic tends to be more "back-seat" in this story and only rarely do we see it show it's true potential. It's why I feel that although the Others have some magical elements to them, they are essentially much more natural in this world than just being created out of thin air by magic.

Everything we've seen that is magical in the books needs some non-magical component to make it work. Shadow babies don't exist without sex, face changing requires an actual face to be available etc.

[LmL]

Hmm i'd never considered that they could be part of a magical balancing act.

Would that not mean there could or should be a fire equivalent somewhere on Planetos as well then? Dragons, maybe but they seen a little out of place if they are something like that.I get the impression that the Valyrian dragons were more of a natural creature, or at least those found in the 14 Flames were. Other older dragons or their origins could have magical aspects i suppose.

I've always had the impression that although there is magic in ASOIAF it's not as powerful as it would be in some high fantasy books. Magic tends to be more "back-seat" in this story and only rarely do we see it show it's true potential. It's why I feel that although the Others have some magical elements to them, they are essentially much more natural in this world than just being created out of thin air by magic.

Everything we've seen that is magical in the books needs some non-magical component to make it work. Shadow babies don't exist without sex, face changing requires an actual face to be available etc.

Yes, Asshai and the Shadow before it was corrupted. I suspect it was a heart of summer, akin to the heart of winter. You can see my exploration of this idea in the "Fingerprints of the Dawn" essay in my signature if you are curious. :)

[LordImp]

i belive the Others are one of the old races who likes ice and Winter. When Winter comes they take advantage of it, just like humans take advantage of different Things.

[Lordsteve666]

heart of summer

There is a Lands of the Long Summer, it's in Valyria between Mantarys and Oros. Could this be something of importance or is it just a more recent name used by locals to the area because it was always fairly warm there?

[LmL]

Lands of the long summer yes, but I don't think it was the opposite of the heart of winter. I think after the disaster at Asshai, original heart of fire magic, that same line of magical knowledge influenced the formation of Valyria. So we see a somewhat similar result at the two places - both were victims of magical fire disasters. But Valyria died 400 years ago; the Long Night fell 10,000 years ago. The death of the heart of summer would have occurred at the onset of the Long Night.

[LordImp]

Valyria probably tried to replace Asshai as the heart of fire , clearly they failed.

[LmL]

Yep, something like that. They rekindled the flame for a long time, but eventually failed to control the power. I thin kit's also to remember just how evil Valyria was - they depopulated most of Essos with 5,000 of slave concentration camps. Pure evil. Hitler, plus fire magic and dragons. It's not much of a stretch, except that the Valyrians were so secure in their divine status that they didn't need the aggressive racist propaganda - one gets the idea they didn't even care about non-valyrians, viewed them as animals. Not even worth hating, just throw them in the mines. However you want to say it... they were an evil empire of misery and dark sorcery, and that's how we should always view them.

[LordImp]

Maybe the Valyrians look at themself as a master race superior to everyone else? Just like the nazis tought the aryans where superior.

[LmL]

Oh yes for sure. They just didn't feel the need get worked up about it - they didn't have to, they had dragons. The Nazi's focus on racial and ethnic "purity" was born out a kind of insecurity - they felt threatened by outsiders, Jews, homosexuals, on and on and on. The Valyrians simply don't feel threatened, they have a kind of casual disregard for humanity. But it amounts to same thing - racial superiority of and death camps. The Valyrians are basically nazi Roman dragonlords. I've heard it said they represent Atlantis; this is idiotic. They are the opposite of Atlantis. Atalntis represents an idea of a previous high point in human existence, a lost golden age. Five thousand years of Valyria was more like an unbelievably long dark age.

Iam fairly convinced the cotf have been warding westeros from dragons that entire time, until Harren built the grand exercise in defilement of the sacred that was Harrenhall.

Note all the god's eye / face of god language around the comet, followed by the Harrenhall story.

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. “The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it’s an omen of victory for Riverrun— he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue.” She sighed. “I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color.” “That thing’s not crimson,” Ser Brynden said. “Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That’s blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.” “Our blood or theirs?” “Was there ever a war where only one side bled?” Her uncle gave a shake of the head. “The riverlands are awash in blood and flame all around the Gods Eye.

[...]

In his pride, Harren had desired the highest hall and tallest towers in all Westeros. Forty years it had taken, rising like a great shadow on the shore of the lake while Harren’s armies plundered his neighbors for stone, lumber, gold, and workers. Thousands of captives died in his quarries, chained to his sledges, or laboring on his five colossal towers. Men froze by winter and sweltered in summer. Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters. Harren had beggared the riverlands and the Iron Islands alike to ornament his dream. And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King’s Landing.

ACOK, CATELYN

[Lazy Sparrow]

I've wondered if the Others and the Long Night might have been an inadvertent product of the magic of the Children of the Forest. Maybe the legendary "Hammer of the Waters" was actually some way in which the Children changed the world's climate to raise the sea level, leading to (presumably) unintended consquences down the road.

Then again, this may be too close to real world politically charged issues.

They might also have been a product of human magic. The early First Men seem to have had a fair share of this. Maybe as the Long Night fell one or more sorcerers in the far north, watching their people die, tried to make themselves impervious to cold and able to raise the recently dead, transforming themselves into the first Others.

It's also possible they are primordial beings of eternal cold, and that the First Men simply had not known about them before. Maybe the Children had kept them contained in the Lands of Always Winter for a million years, but after the coming of the First Men there were no longer enough of them. I'm not inclined to believe that however, because I think Martin, with his love of really long time frames, would probably have mentioned their ancientness by now, and because, especially if Game of Thrones did not make too much up in this regard, it seems the Others are transformed humans rather than their own independant species.

Really, I hope the mystery of the Others' origins and motives is never explained. The best thing about them is that, as their name suggests, they are alien, inexplicable things. We should never feel like we understand who they are, what they want, or why they do what they do. Like extreme weather in the real world, they need to be resisted not because they are necessarily morally evil but because whatever they are, they are incompatible with human life.

[LmL]

The cotf existed for a thousand thousand man years before the LN. That indicates that man was the cause, or at least the instigator. That doesn't rule out cotf magic as being involved, though.

The breaking of the Arm of Dorne was called perhaps the most significant event in the history of Westeros by TWOAIF, and I agree. The shivering sea and summer sea were isolated previously... after the breaking, warm currents entered the northern sea and vise versa. This would actually have immense climate repercussions. Consider the fact that it is only warm currents the keep Europe from being like Canada and England from being like Siberia.

Modrn global warming aside, we have been coming out of an ice age since about 15,000 BCE. Sea level has risen about 450 feet since that time. I see signs of the same idea on Planetos - there are monuments carved just underwater which would have been above the waterline in ancient history. The thing about the arm's breaking warming up northern Westeros and Essos by war of summer sea currents. The drying up of multiple bodies of water in the east. It does appear to be a planet in a warming phase, and as I said, the breaking of the Arm would HAVE to have repercussions, and I am sure George has taken this into account on some level.

[Lazy Sparrow]

The cotf existed for a thousand thousand man years before the LN. That indicates that man was the cause, or at least the instigator. That doesn't rule out cotf magic as being involved, though.

The breaking of the Arm of Dorne was called perhaps the most significant event in the history of Westeros by TWOAIF, and I agree. The shivering sea and summer sea were isolated previously... after the breaking, warm currents entered the northern sea and vise versa. This would actually have immense climate repercussions. Consider the fact that it is only warm currents the keep Europe from being like Canada and England from being like Siberia.

Modrn global warming aside, we have been coming out of an ice age since about 15,000 BCE. Sea level has risen about 450 feet since that time. I see signs of the same idea on Planetos - there are monuments carved just underwater which would have been above the waterline in ancient history. The thing about the arm's breaking warming up northern Westeros and Essos by war of summer sea currents. The drying up of multiple bodies of water in the east. It does appear to be a planet in a warming phase, and as I said, the breaking of the Arm would HAVE to have repercussions, and I am sure George has taken this into account on some level.

If you want to bring the real world ice age into it, it's my understanding that the ice ages were instigated when North and South America linked back up, cutting off the tropical Atlantic from the tropical Pacific and drastically altering ocean currents. Since then we have alternated between warm periods, when the Gulf Stream bathes Europe in warm water, and ice ages, when the Gulf Stream flows almost due north to Greenland, bringing more mosture which turns to ice and gets the glaciers growing, which in turn leads to global cooling. I suppose all this influenced my climate theory, the breaking of the arm being a sort of opposite of the linking of North and South America. But I don't know how much science Martin knows, even on this fairly popular level. A Song of Fire and Ice doesn't display the kind of naturalist knowledge that, for instance, The Lord of the Rings does. The oaks in the very far north, for example, suggests to me the author is probably not particularly science/nature savy.

[LmL]

In this case, with the breaking, I think he would have considered it. It's been part of the design of the world from the very beginning, and he made up his story about it in book one. It's a very specific idea - a land bridge that separates two oceans from one another. He must have included it to do something with it. The Long Winter is like a rapid-advancing ice age, so again we see these ideas are at the core of his world building.

Not knowing which trees grow in which climate is an easy mistake to make.

[LordImp]

Oh yes for sure. They just didn't feel the need get worked up about it - they didn't have to, they had dragons. The Nazi's focus on racial and ethnic "purity" was born out a kind of insecurity - they felt threatened by outsiders, Jews, homosexuals, on and on and on. The Valyrians simply don't feel threatened, they have a kind of casual disregard for humanity. But it amounts to same thing - racial superiority of and death camps. The Valyrians are basically nazi Roman dragonlords. I've heard it said they represent Atlantis; this is idiotic. They are the opposite of Atlantis. Atalntis represents an idea of a previous high point in human existence, a lost golden age. Five thousand years of Valyria was more like an unbelievably long dark age.

Iam fairly convinced the cotf have been warding westeros from dragons that entire time, until Harren built the grand exercise in defilement of the sacred that was Harrenhall.

Note all the god's eye / face of god language around the comet, followed by the Harrenhall story.

Catelyn raised her eyes, to where the faint red line of the comet traced a path across the deep blue sky like a long scratch across the face of god. “The Greatjon told Robb that the old gods have unfurled a red flag of vengeance for Ned. Edmure thinks it’s an omen of victory for Riverrun— he sees a fish with a long tail, in the Tully colors, red against blue.” She sighed. “I wish I had their faith. Crimson is a Lannister color.” “That thing’s not crimson,” Ser Brynden said. “Nor Tully red, the mud red of the river. That’s blood up there, child, smeared across the sky.” “Our blood or theirs?” “Was there ever a war where only one side bled?” Her uncle gave a shake of the head. “The riverlands are awash in blood and flame all around the Gods Eye.

[...]

In his pride, Harren had desired the highest hall and tallest towers in all Westeros. Forty years it had taken, rising like a great shadow on the shore of the lake while Harren’s armies plundered his neighbors for stone, lumber, gold, and workers. Thousands of captives died in his quarries, chained to his sledges, or laboring on his five colossal towers. Men froze by winter and sweltered in summer. Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters. Harren had beggared the riverlands and the Iron Islands alike to ornament his dream. And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King’s Landing.

ACOK, CATELYN

This is what i have tought all the time. The true threat is not the Others , it's the valyrian and their dragons. Actually i belive Daenerys will cause more destruction than the Others. Im not saying the Others are heroes or something , but dragons are not any better than them. I also agree that the Childrends have protected Westeros from Valyria and dragons.

[LmL]

I don't think you can say that either ice or fire is a bigger threat. The threat is unbalance. Either fire or ice can be death... that's the point of the Robert Frost poem:

Some say the world will end in fire,

Some say in ice.

From what I’ve tasted of desire

I hold with those who favor fire.

But if it had to perish twice,

I think I know enough of hate

To say that for destruction ice

Is also great

And would suffice.