[Book Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Repercussion III

[Mindwalker]

My first thread in this forum! The old R'n'R thread was closed for length.

To quote Ran:

The topic of the thread is discussing things you disliked about the episode. It is not a place to throw insults at one another or to act as if he normal rules of the forum do not apply. Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand -- this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked.

[Chebyshov]

Yo yo yo!

If you guys haven't already, read Julia Martell's phenomenal piece on Porne, Racism, and Orientalism (covers the 5x07 scene).

Where we last left off, Gargarax said:

Back on topic (in a way): I sometimes wonder whether D&D have read the books more than once. They've been working on this show for at least seven years, so they should have had the time, right? The first time I read the books, it took me roughly 8 weeks, and that was during a pretty busy time at work. An we are "just" fans, they are doing an adaptation with an enormous budget, so couldn't we expect them to have read every book at least three of four times? I'm sure Peter Jackson knew LoTR almost by heart when he started writing the script.

I don't think they have, though. At best, they read it a second time, skimming the pages to look for opportunities to insert some more nudity and brothel scenes, or to find iconic lines to keep out of the script. How could you read these books several times and produce an adaptation like the one we have ...

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Because aside from R+L=J (which is just shy of explicated IMO), they seem to accept everything at face-value. Marg really is a scheming whore because Cersei said so (and Kevan is just a misogynist)! Tyrion is a woobie that is always right! Sansa is a stupid girl who never learns! Brienne = strong! It's like they have no idea about PoV lenses, or make any attempt to read beyond the very surface. This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters...

[protar]

Yo yo yo!

If you guys haven't already, read Julia Martell's phenomenal piece on Porne, Racism, and Orientalism (covers the 5x07 scene).

Where we last left off, Gargarax said:

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Because aside from R+L=J (which is just shy of explicated IMO), they seem to accept everything at face-value. Marg really is a scheming whore because Cersei said so (and Kevan is just a misogynist)! Tyrion is a woobie that is always right! Sansa is a stupid girl who never learns! Brienne = strong! It's like they have no idea about PoV lenses, or make any attempt to read beyond the very surface. This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters....

I'm pretty sure they must have read the books multiple times (or at least I hope so), but the problem is that they've never read the books as just fans. Even that first read they were looking at it with an eye for adaptation. Every time they read the books they're probably not looking so much at good characterisation and themes, but rather what they need to cut or change to put it on screen.

[Julia Martell]

You know what I miss: the search function.

Someone who knows more than me can probably say something intelligent about the differences in POV in visual vs. textual media. I’m quite sure POV is just as important in visual media though, and they’re certainly proving it exists at all. With every passing season the story is more and more about the Lannisters.

[Prince of the North]

Yo yo yo!

If you guys haven't already, read Julia Martell's phenomenal piece on Porne, Racism, and Orientalism (covers the 5x07 scene).

Where we last left off, Gargarax said:

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Because aside from R+L=J (which is just shy of explicated IMO), they seem to accept everything at face-value. Marg really is a scheming whore because Cersei said so (and Kevan is just a misogynist)! Tyrion is a woobie that is always right! Sansa is a stupid girl who never learns! Brienne = strong! It's like they have no idea about PoV lenses, or make any attempt to read beyond the very surface. This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters...

...and don't forget that everything's about revenge in the show but not nearly enough of the negative side of revenge is included.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

LOL I guess the mods and admins can forget about my submission for Volume 3 of this thread. Here's hoping this incarnation has some staying power, which reminds me.....I think there are a few posts I wanted to reply to from the other thread.

~goes to comb V2~

ETA: Congrats on creating your first thread, Mindwalker. And, great minds must think alike, I used Ran's opening post from the previous version as well in my submission.

[Dolorous Gabe]

Yo yo yo!

If you guys haven't already, read Julia Martell's phenomenal piece on Porne, Racism, and Orientalism (covers the 5x07 scene).

Where we last left off, Gargarax said:

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Because aside from R+L=J (which is just shy of explicated IMO), they seem to accept everything at face-value. Marg really is a scheming whore because Cersei said so (and Kevan is just a misogynist)! Tyrion is a woobie that is always right! Sansa is a stupid girl who never learns! Brienne = strong! It's like they have no idea about PoV lenses, or make any attempt to read beyond the very surface. This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters...

I tend to think a lot of it is them adapting the source material through a very much Lannister perspective. The problem with making the Lannisters more sympathetic is that it detracts from that wonderfully dysfunctional dynamic and by turns Jaime's interesting character development.

[LongRider]

LOL I guess the mods and admins can forget about my submission for Volume 3 of this thread. Here's hoping this incarnation has some staying power, which reminds me.....I think there are a few posts I wanted to reply to from the other thread.

~goes to comb V2~

ETA: Congrats on creating your first thread, Mindwalker. And, great minds must think alike, I used Ran's opening post from the previous version as well in my submission.

Ha ha! Me three! Mindwalker sniped us! Well done.

[Prince of the North]

LOL I guess the mods and admins can forget about my submission for Volume 3 of this thread. Here's hoping this incarnation has some staying power, which reminds me.....I think there are a few posts I wanted to reply to from the other thread.

~goes to comb V2~

ETA: Congrats on creating your first thread, Mindwalker. And, great minds must think alike, I used Ran's opening post from the previous version as well in my submission.

Heh, I submitted an R&R thread with Ran's opening post from last thread as well :P Hey! I like that - R&R! Because that's what these threads are for me - "rest and relaxation" and, of course, highly cathartic! :thumbsup:

ETA: or "Me Four!"

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Ha ha! Me three! Mindwalker sniped us! Well done.

Heh, I submitted an R&R thread with Ran's opening post from last thread as well :P Hey! I like that - R&R! Because that's what these threads are for me - "rest and relaxation" and, of course, highly cathartic! :thumbsup:

ETA: or "Me Four!"

Hahaha, there must be a flood of R&R (Love the multi purpose of it) threads. Along with......Ran's words of wisdom, not to be confused with Benioff's. :lmao:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Because aside from R+L=J (which is just shy of explicated IMO), they seem to accept everything at face-value. Marg really is a scheming whore because Cersei said so (and Kevan is just a misogynist)! Tyrion is a woobie that is always right! Sansa is a stupid girl who never learns! Brienne = strong! It's like they have no idea about PoV lenses, or make any attempt to read beyond the very surface. This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters...

Cersei also believes Loras is a dangerous guy that can make Tommen to catch the gayness. :dunno: So... yeah. She's dictating the plot. Maybe she offered them her golden sn..itch too...

You know what I miss: the search function.

google "site:asoiaf.westeros.org words" (without the ""s) and you can search the board only.

[Cashless Society]

Yo yo yo!

If you guys haven't already, read Julia Martell's phenomenal piece on Porne, Racism, and Orientalism (covers the 5x07 scene).

Where we last left off, Gargarax said:

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Because aside from R+L=J (which is just shy of explicated IMO), they seem to accept everything at face-value. Marg really is a scheming whore because Cersei said so (and Kevan is just a misogynist)! Tyrion is a woobie that is always right! Sansa is a stupid girl who never learns! Brienne = strong! It's like they have no idea about PoV lenses, or make any attempt to read beyond the very surface. This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters...

Can't have a KG that's not Jaime Lannister break his vows.

Brienne in the Riverlands after TWO5K? - Not CINEMATIC.

Princess in the Tower introspection - Not CINEMATIC

Alayne - We don't want spoil the readers with TWOW material, so off to Winterfell you go.

Euron Crow's Eye - wait, this guy wants to steal dragons and attack Oldtown instead of attacking KL?

[Cas Stark]

I'm still ruminating on what possessed the critics who got eps 1-4 to pronounce this possibly the best season ever and claim that the D's were on their way to improving the books?

I repeat: I have serious criticisms of the last two books, but that didn't prevent me from having watched eps. 1-4 and seeing this was a train wreck coming.

And the more I have thought about it, Arya's story does deserve criticsm. Just because they haven't technically changed much from the books doesn't get them off the hook for making her story disjointed, hard to penetrate if you didn't read the books, wasting Tom W. along with clothing him in army surplus handoffs, and generally making it dull and incomprehensible.

The only reason it hasn't gotten more criticism is that their poor handling of her story was overshadowed by Charlie's Angels from Dorne and Sansa Bolton.

[MordredDayne]

Yo yo yo!

If you guys haven't already, read Julia Martell's phenomenal piece on Porne, Racism, and Orientalism (covers the 5x07 scene).

Where we last left off, Gargarax said:

I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Because aside from R+L=J (which is just shy of explicated IMO), they seem to accept everything at face-value. Marg really is a scheming whore because Cersei said so (and Kevan is just a misogynist)! Tyrion is a woobie that is always right! Sansa is a stupid girl who never learns! Brienne = strong! It's like they have no idea about PoV lenses, or make any attempt to read beyond the very surface. This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters...

1) Completely agree on Julia's post. Along with the usual excellent insights into Dorne, she does an excellent job of briefly summarizing Sa 'id's "Orientalism" which is no small feat, and it is directly relevant to the discussion of how D&D seem to view the show through a very...um...specific lens!

2) As to taking things at face-value, I agree. The only thing that seems to really interest them are the big shocking plot points like the RW. It makes a lot of sense to hear that reading that scene is what convinced them that they had to adapt the series. They were almost certainly thinking of what a shocking moment of TV it would be. They're either unaware or (I think) uninterested into delving into what makes those moments shocking. They don't really care about guest right and how important it is in Westerosi culture. It's just MURDER! MAYHEM! Their concern with hiding the shocks until they're revealed makes plot points consistently underdeveloped and then all of a sudden clumsily seeded, like R+L=J. They remind me of some people I've talked to who think that, because they don't like a character or find their story line interesting, then that character/story must not be important.

It makes sense that they should read the books with an eye toward adaptation, but it shouldn't be ONLY for that. I really don't know how you can come up with "Needle is revenge." when it's so clearly stated to be the opposite unless you either weren't reading closely at all, thought your idea was better, or were so focused on how to make those HoB&W scenes "interesting" for TV that you were just completely blind to it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Arya's story is boring for me in both books and show, so I can't really say that much. But, in show, it looks a bit dull. A lot of things happen that are supposed to be cool, yet, it has little meaning.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh, yeah. Julia's post I liked. And this is something coming from someone who, around ten years ago, some people still believe to go around braless and with feathers on her hair. Really. Someone from Mexico once asked me "what? you have Health care in Peru?".

[dannyk65]

This year I'm starting to wonder if they even read AFFC beyond Cersei's chapters...

I would venture to guess they didn't read the Cersei chapters that weren't titled "CAROL"

[MordredDayne]

I'm still ruminating on what possessed the critics who got eps 1-4 to pronounce this possibly the best season ever and claim that the D's were on their way to improving the books?

I repeat: I have serious criticisms of the last two books, but that didn't prevent me from having watched eps. 1-4 and seeing this was a train wreck coming.

And the more I have thought about it, Arya's story does deserve criticsm. Just because they haven't technically changed much from the books doesn't get them off the hook for making her story disjointed, hard to penetrate if you didn't read the books, wasting Tom W. along with clothing him in army surplus handoffs, and generally making it dull and incomprehensible.

The only reason it hasn't gotten more criticism is that their poor handling of her story was overshadowed by Charlie's Angels from Dorne and Sansa Bolton.

Completely agree. I, like many people, have given it a pass because there are so many things that are more egregious, but they're really kind of coasting on it. I think it was Cheb who said that it seems like the scenes were included in the episodes out of order. They had that Needle scene early on in the show, but then they have the whole Arya Stark/You love the Hound scene after that. It would have made much more sense to reverse those scenes. The Needle scene should have been right before the little girl gift of mercy scene, and then followed by the Hall of Faces scene. I think the Needle scene was the best scene of hers that they've shot all season. They should have saved it for near the end of the season where it would have more emotional impact.

[bobbybuilderton]

I enjoyed Arya's story in the books. But I enjoyed it because of the world building that was done. Pretty much all of which is being ignored in favor of masks and poorly lit sets, based on what you all say. I was listening to a podcast with unsullied and they were unclear on the purpose of the lying game.

[Cas Stark]

I don't know if they could put her giving up needle at the end, that has to come fairly early as part of her committing to the FM, but I am going with what came to me the other day, that one of the things they have done very successfully is put Maise with other actors and create snappy, interesting dialogue where she has good screen chemistry w/them. This is what they brought Tom back for. We KNOW they can do it because they did it for Tywin & Arya chatting in Harenhall and the Arya & the Hound Tour Westeros....so, even if this wasn't in the books, it could give background on the FM and be good TV.

So, they have failed at one of the few things we have seen them do well in the past this season and with the same actress and actor. LOL.