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Melisandre's real intentions


TeresaGray

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Crackpot: The entire new-founded popularity of the R'hllor religion is a huge conspiracy organized by Bloodraven, with the help of his sister-lover, Shiera Seastar. She taught sorcery to the fire-priests so that more people will believe in the "power of R'hllor", and he chooses what to show them, and he gets to see them as well, through the fires. This way he gets to see what happens across the the narrow sea, and even in places where trees don't grow. According to WOIAF book, the followers of R'hllor only became numerous over the last hundred years. Bloodraven is 125 years old. He sowed the seeds of his grand spy-network when he was active Targ loyalist in KL. The primary purpose of the network was to find what Bittersteel and Blackfyre supporters were doing via magical means, but Children of the Forest also helped him, for their own purposes.

Mel is not upto anything, she is simply a very talented fool who doesn't realize whose tune she is dancing for. She acts based on what she sees, and she twists her prophecies to get others impressed by her. She doesn't see dragons because BR doesn't want to show her.

This is a long standing theory that's been around for years, and I happen to agree with it. I'm not sure what association Bloodeaven has with Mel and the other followers of R'hllor, but I reckon there is one.

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Melissandre is a rogue red priest, she is not working with Benerro or Moqorro, that is per GRRM not my opinion. She is also both a shadow binder and a red priest, people seem to get those 2 mixed up, red preists cannot do shadow babies, that's shadow binders.

We got a Mel POV in Dance, we know she really thinks Stannis is AA, we know she really is trying to fight the Others. In this case the simplest answer really is the best, she is simply an idiot.

It does seem that way doesn't it? "I looked in my fires and all I saw was Snow..."

All I could think was: "Dear Mel, you are not that smart."

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Oh yeah and Thoros of Myr is allowed to resurrect Beric by BR because why? Crackpot indeed.

Thoros is a living human being, Mel is undead, or whatever you want to call Beric, so is Moqorro, maybe all the high level Red Priests are. I can easily see it being a part of the upper caste religious ceremonies, just like the drowned me, only the R'hllor version.

So, who knows how it will effect Mel, she may crumble into dust if she breathes her fire into Jon, the same way Beric did (well, I don't know if he dusted, but he was much younger than Mel).

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Melisandre's personality is a mystery for me. Why does't she see in fire that dragons were born? why does she support Stannis instead of Daenerys which would have been more logical. I therefore came to conclusion that she has some hidden agenda- she supported Stannis so that they all fight between themselves and destroy each other which will make it easier for Daenerys to conquer Westeros. I just cannot understand the logic of how Melisandre doesn't see dragons and doesn't see anything about any of Targariens. Also I did not understand the logic of her behaviours in relation to king's blood search- turned out that she did not burn Mance, she kind of "forgot" of her intentions in relation to the child of Mance. Could it be because she met John Snow and changed her plans due to the reason that he is son of Lyanna and Targaryan (as per one of the versions here on forum?)

TeresaGray: Nicely written proposal with good thoughts. But to validate literary assumptions, it is good form to use evidence from Martin's texts. You need evidence to prove Melisandre's "hidden agenda", and even though readers may not know what the "agenda" is, readers do know she "hides" information regarding Mance and the fire switcheroo and regarding his mission to Winterfell. [Cite Sources].

I don't think this theory is all that crackpot, really. The only objection I have is the 'kiss of life', and how it seems like there is no way for Bloodraven to know/influence such an event.

The greenseers' powers extend beyond the land and sea and reach high into the clouds and deep within the earth. Bloodraven does not need trees to see what happens elsewhere in Martin's world of ice and fire. He has a choice of embodiments as a skinchanger, and the wind carries words to him - "words are wind". I explain all that here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95578-the-wind-in-martins-asoiaf/

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Melisandre's chapter in book 5 is one of my favourite in the whole series. The desperation of a woman of faith staring into her fires as the snow falls does an incredible job of presenting the desolation of life at the Wall but also the desolation of the faithful when faced with a deaf, elusive god.

But this chapter is also valuable because it clearly demonstrates that her relationship with R'hllor is real for her. This is not a theological claim whatsoever. It merely shows that in Melisandre's mind the relationship is not one constructed purely for the sake of some shady political expediency. I feel like this alone is incredible valuable in helping us to assess Melisandre's endgame. Though of course the faith of R'hllor does become entangled with politics in Essos, as we see in Volantis (and probably Asshai) and so we cannot rule out this angle, indeed it seems likely there is almost definitely a political angle to her involvement. But as her reliance on the visions in the fire and her belief in the power of her god are real, if there is a political endgame Melisandre's part in it is motivated at least in part by earnest religious "reasons" (devotions), on top whatever else may have brought her to this point.

The fact that her memory of being sold at the slave auction occurs right at the beginning of the chapter is also perhaps quite telling. We all know that religion can provide a stable sense of community and belonging for people who have been brought up in unstable and treacherous surroundings. The communion Melisandre accesses in the flames clearly acts like a surrogate network of connection to the world, it grounds her and gives her purpose. For this reason it is possible that her belief is entirely constructed as a way to deal with the pain of her existence. For me Melisandre is one of the most compelling characters in all of ASOIAF precisely because of the inscrutability, not only of her motivations but of her relation to reality itself.

In terms of specific endgame or purpose I'm clueless beyond her fate being tied to Jon Snow's. I hope she doesn't become a mere vehicle for his own self-recognition. I hope she plays a much larger role - whether this turns out to be problematic or helpful, I don't really mind.


+ EDIT: Yes, the difference in significance/purpose between dragonfire and R'hllor's fire is really fascinating. Anyone have any wild theories about this and their possible interaction?

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I always thought it was Dany regardless of how much I dislike her. Drogo is the love she has to destroy, the dragons are lightbringer which she wields. I'd like to be wrong and have Jon be it honestly.

I don't think it's Jon or Dany. I think the AA, PtwP, and Last Hero stories/prophecies are merely symbolic of the need to sacrifice one's personal needs for the survival of the realm. There is no one savior. Winter will come. Jon will lead some party of men to hold off the White Walkers. Dany will come to Westeros, and will recognize a greater need for her forces to battle the White Walkers. Bran will use his powers to get people what they need to know. Sansa and Rickon will return to Winterfell and be the Stark who must always be there. Arya will needle people all through Winter. Perhaps Stannis, Tyrion, Jamie, and Aegon have some part to play.

I think the visions are a demonstration that people see what they want in prophecy.

Yes there is an element of interpretation, but the poster who said her visions revolve around what she is doing right now is correct. She is using magic to clarify for herself what needs to happen.

So perhaps Quaithe is a figment of Dany's imagination. She knows as a person of power she will be betrayed, so she goes looking for the betrayal. Cersei knows her children will die, so she goes on a path of ensuring their demises (marrying Joff to Margery, holing Tommen up, trying to wrangle Myrcella back from Dorne).

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Hanlon's Razor: "Never assume malicious intent when stupidity is a sufficient explanation"



One thing stood out to me from Mel's chapter: She sees exactly what she wants to see, she's awfully quick to jump to conclusions, and she sticks to them regardless of what the evidence (or lack thereof) might say.



I believe she is sincere in her beliefs, but a little misguided. She wants to show the world that she is the most special and powerful and important red priest there ever was, and that the person she's assigned to follow is Azor Ahai reborn. Being sold as a slave as a kid might have given her some trauma, which she is repressing by making herself as powerful as she can, and she's fooled herself into thinking she really is that clever and important.



Her religion has proved to hold a certain power, and she does have decent control of it, but she isn't as all-seeing as she likes to believe, and she is not at all good to interpret what she sees. Her prophetic powers are severely muddled by a strong confirmation bias.



As such, her intentions are probably not political. She's devoutly religious, and with a certain personal complex, but she is sincere. And that makes her all the more dangerous for those around her, since she has a gift for gathering followers. A more powerful authority would keep her in check, but with Melisandre alone at the top of the religious pyramid, a lot of people become far too convinced that a lot of other people should be burned, for all the wrong reasons.


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I also agree that her intentions are sincerely to fight the Night's King and the others. I also believe that she is undead and a shadow binder (proof is there on that one). I have also decided that I am done with the show after this season, because it is leading me to believe that she is going to sacrifice Shireen (king's blood) to resurrect Jon Snow (whom she finally figures out is the true AA) behind Stannis' back. I would never have considered this without watching the show. So I am done after this season. I want to read Martin's story, not Dan's and Dave's.


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Mel's visions seems to center around herself and what she is doing. So when she is on Dragonstone with Stannis, she sees things related to him and the Wot5K. When the message from the wall is brought by Davos, her visions turn northward. When she gets to the wall and is close to Jon, all requests to see AA result in Snow.

So the dragons won't show up in her visions until they start to impact what she is doing. But even then, as others have noted, she has a really bad track record when it comes to interpreting what she is seeing. Contrast that with the Ghost of High Heart, who simply says what she sees without trying to put a spin on it -- probably because she herself doesn't know what it really means.

I agree with this. Mel's power stem from self-gain and allying herself with powerful people. None of the Red God priests seem to have power by themselves, they all seek other powerful players and then use them for the advancement of themselves. This is one of the reasons I have issues with R'hllor. Everyone, Moros, Moqorro, Benerro, Mel, all seek lines of personal advancements of power in the name of R'hllor. Shady people here (no pun intended).

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Where does the argument that Mel is undead come from?

Didnt Martin say he wouldn't due undead pov chapters? And she seemed to have no issues kicking around The Wall...

I think because she doesn't eat and she does not feel the cold, also something about the ruby on her throat. I remembering reading the theory a long time ago and thinking it made sense, but I can't remember all of it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think because she doesn't eat and she does not feel the cold, also something about the ruby on her throat. I remembering reading the theory a long time ago and thinking it made sense, but I can't remember all of it.

1) She doesn't eat but is not a skinny wretch, it might be a glamour, but you'd think the guy jumping her bones all night, every night would notice if she was a stick figure.

2) She does not feel cold, in fact she melts the Wall, and speaks of her internal fire.

3) This one is a bit shaky because she just might be really old, but she has a hazy memories of her long past, Beric was more pronounced, but he was killed 6 times or something.

4) She's old, but doesn't look it, similar to #1 in that Stannis might notice some cobwebs in the nether regions.

5) She doesn't sleep, just kind of meditates and day dreams.

6) and as for Moquorro, dude just floated alone in the Ocean hanging onto some driftwood for a number of days and did not need any kind of medical intervention when brought aboard Vic's ship, indeed, we have no evidence he suffered anything other than boredom, and not even that.

It makes a certain amount of sense that the upper echelons of the priesthood would have such ceremony, and it's a nice mirror to the Drowning of the Ironborn.

There's more I think it's been a while since I enumerated the reasons and I am sure others have some more deeply thought out theories.

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Oh yeah and Thoros of Myr is allowed to resurrect Beric by BR because why? Crackpot indeed.

Beric is the protector of Edric Dayne, the last male heir to Starfall and everyone's consenus choice to be the next Sword of the Morning. Not to mention the leader of BWB. His character is crucial to much of the story early on and his constant survival ensures that Edric remains under his protection and not the protection of an immoral character. There are many theories on here that suggest the Dayne's and the sword Dawn will play a major role further into the story. Look them up on here if you want to know more. Personally I believe Dawn to be the true blade of the Last Hero and that it will be used again as Lightbringer. Edric is well on his way to proving himself worthy and its possible that he is actually AA himself or that he will be the one who brings Dawn to Jon or Dany if it's one of them.

Now I'm not saying that BR is the one responsible for the return of the power of the red priests but it makes a lot of sense and the fact that Beric is revived only supports that claim. Considering BR knows everything going on in Westeros he would have a lot to gain by keeping these people alive as long as he can.

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