R+L=J v.143

[Sly Wren]

Could? Yes, certainly. I just don't know if it makes it tidier. You'd have to explain how Ned knew to go to Starfall after the fight. If you're suggesting Dayne told him...possibly if Dayne was convinced that he could trust Ned with the big Baby Boy Jon secret (his existence to start, but then his status as true born prince as well). But is that keeping with his sworn KG vows to put the King and those Dayne is sworn to in no danger. And of course that brings us to the Great Debate That Shall Never End Until GRRM Says So: #TeamObey vs #TeamProtect. Why was there no KG at Starfall with Baby Boy Jon? One of them wold have gone to Jon and Lyanna either because they were sworn to protect Lyanna at Rhaegar's behest OR because they believed him to be Aerys's heir now that Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, based on their own understanding of succession.

Fully agree--still lots of holes. And lots of questions that Martin hasn't filled in yet.

1. Knowing to go to Starfall seems to have the same problems as knowing to go to the TOJ--or maybe they didn't go to the TOJ, but were heading to Starfall in the first place. Met the KG at TOJ.

2. Why no Kingsguard to protect Jon? Not sold on him really being seen as the heir.

3. Why at the TOJ vs. at Starfall with Jon? I had the same question--I did not like the logistics of Lyanna being in the pull-downable tower, but couldn't square it with the dream. Got this answer: Black Crow's idea on the Kingsguard as Three Ronin--am not fully sold, but it filled that particular gap for me. For now. See what you think.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129553-heresy-168/page-9.

4. As to getting Starfall to keep quiet--would still have to do that if getting servants and supplies--they'd still have to agree. But if Jon and Lyanna are there--they'd be a lot safer than at TOJ.

Fully admit this is not airtight. But at present we don't have enough information to close all the holes. Only arguing that Lyanna and Jon at TOJ seems very odd--seems to be counterintuitive if care for mother and child are important. Even getting them out of the country seems safer. . . . Something's off.

[Voice]

Fully agree--still lots of holes. And lots of questions that Martin hasn't filled in yet.

1. Knowing to go to Starfall seems to have the same problems as knowing to go to the TOJ--or maybe they didn't go to the TOJ, but were heading to Starfall in the first place. Met the KG at TOJ.

2. Why no Kingsguard to protect Jon? Not sold on him really being seen as the heir.

3. Why at the TOJ vs. at Starfall with Jon? I had the same question--I did not like the logistics of Lyanna being in the pull-downable tower, but couldn't square it with the dream. Got this answer: Black Crow's idea on the Kingsguard as Three Ronin--am not fully sold, but it filled that particular gap for me. For now. See what you think.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129553-heresy-168/page-9.

4. As to getting Starfall to keep quiet--would still have to do that if getting servants and supplies--they'd still have to agree. But if Jon and Lyanna are there--they'd be a lot safer than at TOJ.

Fully admit this is not airtight. But at present we don't have enough information to close all the holes. Only arguing that Lyanna and Jon at TOJ seems very odd--seems to be counterintuitive if care for mother and child are important. Even getting them out of the country seems safer. . . . Something's off.

Well said. I'd like to address your numbered paragraphs.

1. It makes more sense to me that the Ned didn't know Lya was at Starfall. Instead, he fights the KG. And Dayne, before expiring, earns Ned's undying respect by telling him where to find his sister. Ned then returns Dawn to Starfall, and finds Lya in her deathbed. House Dayne is equally impressed with Ned, as Ned is with House Dayne. The Lord of Dayne names his son Edric, after Eddard. Jon Snow shares a wetnurse with Edric, and the two are milkbrothers.

2. The KG at the tower of joy died fighting rebels of the crown. They were true to their vow. No need to discuss heirs. The KG upheld their vow when confronting Ned's party of usurpers.

3. People just like the toj better I think. It sounds romantic. But yes, I'm not sure anyone has brought up the pull-downability of the tower as an issue until I mentioned it in Weasel Pie's thread. Such a tower hardly seems like safe quarters for a pregnant woman. I'd like to see the discussion move past arguing over this detail and break some new ground. The implications are many.

4. Do we even know R+L were attempting to keep anything quiet in the first place? It seems the whole realm knew about the "abduction." Rhaegar wasn't exactly discreet at the Tourney of Harrenhal either...

[Voice]

Okay then.

As you pointed out, THEY found Ned Stark. Howland Reed does not a "they" make. Thus, there is at least one other person at the ToJ after the battle. How do we know THEY (the collective whole) were still at the ToJ as Ned embraced his dying sister? The app:

"At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy"

How do we know the app is canon and approved by GRRM: well, you could go back a page to where I cited it for Frey Family Reunion, but I'll just do it again

X

Ok, so we are at the ToJ with a dying Lyanna (app confirmation + canon of app confirmation); there is a "they" = / = Howland Reed by his lonesome so we need more than one person. The Three KG are dead dead dead. So what do we know about Lyanna and Rhaegar? Well we know she was pregnant (if you want me to cite proof of that, then you might be in the wrong thread). We know that pregnancy in Westeros is hard. We know that midwives are used by high born ladies to help bring their children into the world (cf: any time pregnancy is discussed in the series...also, logic). Therefore the most sound conclusion is that there must have been, at minimum, a midwife at the ToJ. Going further we would expect that the Prince and his Lady would need help in the day to day living, which for them would mean cooking, cleaning,ect. They could do it themselves with the help of the 2 KG--but that seems like a bit of a stretch since 1) high borns don't do that stuff on a regular basis (cf: the series in which we are presented with nothing but highborns NOT doing that) and 2) the KG need to be on guard duty not out washing the linens. Therefore, logic dictates that there was at least one servant in addition to the midwife.

We agree the books are canon, right? Are you saying we should trust the app more than the books? More than the author's own words?

Because there are some very clear contradictions afoot that fall perfectly in line with what GRRM has spake regarding the tower of joy, and you seem to be ignoring them in your assumption of Lyanna being located at the toj.

1. Per the author, Ned's fever dream should not be interpreted literally. SSM:

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the tower of joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

2. According to Eddard I AGOT (below), Howland Reed was not the only person who found Ned holding Lyanna's body.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

3. According to Eddard X AGOT (below), Eddard Stark pulled down the tower himself after the melee with the kingsguard, and he and Howland Reed are the only two who had lived to ride away.

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years.

4. While the author never places Jon Snow at the pile of rocks Rhaegar named the tower of joy, he does place him at Wylla's breast, at Starfall. Arya VIII ASOS:

“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother… Jon Snow?”

“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair… “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’” Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “If you lie I’ll punch your face.”

“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the… the Lord of Starfall.”

Edric speaks of Wylla as serving House Dayne in the present-tense. I wonder if Howland Reed isn't the only soul in the Seven Kingdoms that knows of Jon's true parentage...

5. Now, GRRM has just reiterated that only two men left the tower. That means if, that in your scenario, Rhaegar or the KG or whoever sent retainers from Starfall to the tower of joy (even though, according to your scenario, no one at Starfall is supposed to know about Lyanna), that Eddard Stark and Howland Reed must have murdered these servants. Because, as Ned states, only two had lived to ride away...

---

Let me say that I mean you, nor anyone here any disrespect. So I mean no offense when I say that what is amusing about all of this, is that it that the SSMs and text are all actually very clear and in line with one another. Fans are keeping the tower of romance alive, even though the author has politely recommended people not interpret the fever dream literally.

It's all extremely straightforward once you open your mind to the possibility that Lyanna was not at the tower.

(edited for grammar)

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

Okay, I'm only to hit some points because I'm not even sure you're reading what I wrote or what I've written in the past and since I have had this conversation over and over in RLJ, you'll forgive the briefness of my response. Going by numbers of your above.

1. I have NEVER interpreted the dream literally. Like. Ever. In fact a page back I said that we shouldn't be analyzing it literally and even linked to another thread about how highly ritualized it is. Trust me. I get that it's a fever dream. But Ned's subconscious is recasting the event in a way that makes sense to him and help GRRM lay the groundwork for pointing toward RLJ and very possibly, IMO, to RL = Legit J.

2. I have no idea why you are pointing this out to me again when this is how this whole conversation started. I acknowledge that Howland Reed =/ = a they. You need not regurgitate the same paragraph of text when I am aware of its existence and have given my response already.

3. Ok, did you read the sentence before your bolded? If not, let me parse his grammatically for you.

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away;

The two sentences are working as one, hence the comma, not a period indicating that the subjects remain the same. The seven and the three (10 figures) are your subjects in both portions of the sentence. Thus when GRRM speaks of two riding away, it means of the aforementioned 10. It is not taking into account any other players in the scene, which would have included Lyanna alive in the Tower and any servants there to help her during her time of birth.

Oh. How do we know Lyanna is in the Tower? Well, 1) the burden of proof is on your to prove that Ned killed the 3 KG and then miraculously found out that his sister was at the TOJ and manged to get there before she died of her infection after giving childbirth. But back to my point. Lyanna at the TOJ: books are canon, the app is canon, the author's words are canon. Great. We agree. The books point to her being at the TOJ: They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind

The same red mountains that the App points to as being part of the scenery at the TOJ: "At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy"

You could make the case that the red mountains cold be seen at Starfall as well, however given the precise language and GRRM's ability not only as a wordsmith but as some who is incredible careful about what words he uses (uses red mountains in the same context for the same scene--3 KG, Ned Stark, and the TOJ, all during the mission to save Lyanna) then it is very likely that Lyanna was at the TOJ. You say fans are keeping the idea that Lyanna was at the TOJ alive despite proof, but I have yet to see some substantial proof that she was not that doesn't rely on "well it doesn't make sense for Ned to go to Starfall otherwise" while simultaneously making everything more complicated and ignoring the character traits--Dayne and Hightower specifically--that have already been established.

4. I've never said that Jon wasn't ever at Starfall. But you're making the assumption that him being at Starfall had to be since birth. There is another option: when Ned goes to return Dawn to house Dayne and see Ashara, he takes the baby (and the Wetnurse who is already at the TOJ because Lyanna is about to give birth and highborn ladies have wetnurses) to Starfall with him. See how easy that is. Especially if you consider the possibility that it was Ashara Dayne who told Ned to get to the TOJ in the first place--why her? Well, if her servants are sneaking out of her keep she'd surely suspect something was going on, not to mention that her brother was there, not to mention that she was not "nailed to the floor at Starfall" (according to GRRM) thus indicating that she was elsewhere during the war and possibly picked up on some information, and the fact that GRRM once said that eventually GoT would have to deal with "Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Ashara Dayne." The first two make sense, obviously given that Jon is their son. The last one is the odd one out. Why do we need to deal with Ashara? Possibly because she's the one who told Ned to get to Lyanna who was at the TOJ.

[Voice]

Okay, I'm only to hit some points because I'm not even sure you're reading what I wrote or what I've written in the past and since I have had this conversation over and over in RLJ, you'll forgive the briefness of my response. Going by numbers of your above.

1. I have NEVER interpreted the dream literally. Like. Ever. In fact a page back I said that we shouldn't be analyzing it literally and even linked to another thread about how highly ritualized it is. Trust me. I get that it's a fever dream. But Ned's subconscious is recasting the event in a way that makes sense to him and help GRRM lay the groundwork for pointing toward RLJ and very possibly, IMO, to RL = Legit J.

2. I have no idea why you are pointing this out to me again when this is how this whole conversation started. I acknowledge that Howland Reed =/ = a they. You need not regurgitate the same paragraph of text when I am aware of its existence and have given my response already.

3. Ok, did you read the sentence before your bolded? If not, let me parse his grammatically for you.

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away;

The two sentences are working as one, hence the comma, not a period indicating that the subjects remain the same. The seven and the three (10 figures) are your subjects in both portions of the sentence. Thus when GRRM speaks of two riding away, it means of the aforementioned 10. It is not taking into account any other players in the scene, which would have included Lyanna alive in the Tower and any servants there to help her during her time of birth.

Oh. How do we know Lyanna is in the Tower? Well, 1) the burden of proof is on your to prove that Ned killed the 3 KG and then miraculously found out that his sister was at the TOJ and manged to get there before she died of her infection after giving childbirth. But back to my point. Lyanna at the TOJ: books are canon, the app is canon, the author's words are canon. Great. We agree. The books point to her being at the TOJ: They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind

The same red mountains that the App points to as being part of the scenery at the TOJ: "At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy"

You could make the case that the red mountains cold be seen at Starfall as well, however given the precise language and GRRM's ability not only as a wordsmith but as some who is incredible careful about what words he uses (uses red mountains in the same context for the same scene--3 KG, Ned Stark, and the TOJ, all during the mission to save Lyanna) then it is very likely that Lyanna was at the TOJ. You say fans are keeping the idea that Lyanna was at the TOJ alive despite proof, but I have yet to see some substantial proof that she was not that doesn't rely on "well it doesn't make sense for Ned to go to Starfall otherwise" while simultaneously making everything more complicated and ignoring the character traits--Dayne and Hightower specifically--that have already been established.

4. I've never said that Jon wasn't ever at Starfall. But you're making the assumption that him being at Starfall had to be since birth. There is another option: when Ned goes to return Dawn to house Dayne and see Ashara, he takes the baby (and the Wetnurse who is already at the TOJ because Lyanna is about to give birth and highborn ladies have wetnurses) to Starfall with him. See how easy that is. Especially if you consider the possibility that it was Ashara Dayne who told Ned to get to the TOJ in the first place--why her? Well, if her servants are sneaking out of her keep she'd surely suspect something was going on, not to mention that her brother was there, not to mention that she was not "nailed to the floor at Starfall" (according to GRRM) thus indicating that she was elsewhere during the war and possibly picked up on some information, and the fact that GRRM once said that eventually GoT would have to deal with "Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Ashara Dayne." The first two make sense, obviously given that Jon is their son. The last one is the odd one out. Why do we need to deal with Ashara? Possibly because she's the one who told Ned to get to Lyanna who was at the TOJ.

I've read what you've said. I'm not ignoring it. In my responses to you, I've also addressed arguments other people have raised, so that may be one reason why not every word seems directed toward you specifically in my responses. I'll try to limit that habit for the sake of clarity...

1. Easy now. No one is calling you a Literal Interpreter of Fever Dreams. Least of all me. I think the World App interpreted the fever dream literally. Which is far worse.

Now, when you say this:

But Ned's subconscious is recasting the event in a way that makes sense to him and help GRRM lay the groundwork for pointing toward RLJ and very possibly, IMO, to RL = Legit J.

I must say that sounds like speculation. I'm all for the imagery, and J Star has laid out some cool iconography in PM's. But we can not use an assumed conclusion as canon. All we have for canon is a fever dream the author warned us should not be interpreted literally. As far as symbolic interpretations, there are as many valid symbolic interpretations as there are readers of the book. So while we are all processing the information, and that is good, we cannot use our personal interpretations as we use facts and citations in debate.

2. Don't take it personally. I included it because it is part of my argument, not because I don't think you are aware of the passage. I mean you no ill, ser. This is a friendly discussion about a fantasy series (not something that actually matters, LOL).

The reason I pointed out this citation again, and made parts of my argument bold, is because this is a key detail that seems to get glossed over and ignored when assuming Lyanna was at the tower of joy. It doesn't add up, because we know Ned and Howland were the only two to leave the tower. Yet, Howland is not alone when he finds Ned holding Lyanna's body. Thus, we have two separate locations.

3. Parse away, ser!

I parse language for a living so it'd be nice to sit back while someone else takes the wheel for a while.

Oops, already caught a mistake:

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away;

The two sentences are working as one, hence the comma, not a period indicating that the subjects remain the same. The seven and the three (10 figures) are your subjects in both portions of the sentence. Thus when GRRM speaks of two riding away, it means of the aforementioned 10. It is not taking into account any other players in the scene, which would have included Lyanna alive in the Tower and any servants there to help her during her time of birth.

Sequential sentences need not have different subjects. If that were a rule of grammar, it would make it very difficult to have coherent conversations with people ;)

And, in this particular sentence, the "ten figures" are not the subject(s). This is what us dorky linguists call a compound sentence. It bears two independent clauses. We have one of GRRM's favorite word-choices, yet, playing the role of coordinating conjunction. 'Yet' joins the two independent clauses:

i. They had been seven against three.

ii. Only two had lived to ride away.

You will notice that these clauses, when separated from the conjunction, form two complete sentences. These sentences do not bear the same subject. GRRM is not so novice a writer as to write:

Ten men had a fight and only two of those ten men who were just fighting lived to ride away.

Nor did he. He tends to obfuscate, it is known. Let us put Lyanna's presence aside for just a moment. In Eddard X, GRRM paints the world in such a way as to suggest the three kingsguard and seven rebels were alone near the tower of joy (where, for the sake of argument, Lyanna may have been waiting, screaming for Ned).

Does he explicitly tell us they were alone? I'll get to that. I think most people here imagine it that way (once Lyanna is dead) because of GRRM's word choice. Here's why:

The full sentence is actually:

They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Notice that phrase does not stand on its own as a complete sentence:

Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

There's no verb. Can you guess why?

Here's the answer:

GRRM has embedded the subject of the sentence in a dependent clause, after the semicolon.

That is why we tend to imagine Ned and Howland being alone. Let us revisit the independent clauses with their true subject included (the subject isn't the "ten figures"):

i. Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed, had been seven against three.

ii. Only Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed, had lived to ride away.

And this doesn't really make sense:

Oh. How do we know Lyanna is in the Tower? Well, 1) the burden of proof is on your to prove that Ned killed the 3 KG and then miraculously found out that his sister was at the TOJ and manged to get there before she died of her infection after giving childbirth. But back to my point. Lyanna at the TOJ: books are canon, the app is canon, the author's words are canon. Great. We agree. The books point to her being at the TOJ: They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind

Saying the burden of proof is on me isn't an answer to the question of Lyanna's presence at the tower. Not only that, I've offered citations, SSMs, etc. The ones you got angry at me for repeating, LOL. We don't agree that the app is canon. While the app is official and approved, it is clearly not the sole work of the author. I think it's silly to assume GRRM would answer such a burning question with an app. He doesn't write apps. I mean, look at the word processor he uses! ...Not exactly a high-tech dude.

The app sounds far more like a fan interpretation than it does the work of GRRM on this subject.

And yes, the Red Mountains can be seen from Starfall, no doubt. As interesting as that might be, that really isn't my argument.

4. I am merely repeating Edric Dayne, who claimed Jon's mother was at Starfall, and that he was nursed there. I am also repeating the words of Eddard Stark, who claimed only he and Howland rode away from the tower. And, reminding the thread that the author's comments are far more in line with this thinking than the tower of romance interpretation.

There is another option: when Ned goes to return Dawn to house Dayne and see Ashara, he takes the baby (and the Wetnurse who is already at the TOJ because Lyanna is about to give birth and highborn ladies have wetnurses) to Starfall with him. See how easy that is. Especially if you consider the possibility that it was Ashara Dayne who told Ned to get to the TOJ in the first place--why her? Well, if her servants are sneaking out of her keep she'd surely suspect something was going on, not to mention that her brother was there, not to mention that she was not "nailed to the floor at Starfall" (according to GRRM) thus indicating that she was elsewhere during the war and possibly picked up on some information,and the fact that GRRM once said that eventually GoT would have to deal with "Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Ashara Dayne." The first two make sense, obviously given that Jon is their son. The last one is the odd one out. Why do we need to deal with Ashara? Possibly because she's the one who told Ned to get to Lyanna who was at the TOJ.

Whew! Take a breath there, my friend. That is easy, but that, is also fan fiction. In my argument, which you've quoted, I am quoting text and SSMs, not writing new chapters....

(typo edits)

[Voice]

Okay then.

As you pointed out, THEY found Ned Stark. Howland Reed does not a "they" make. Thus, there is at least one other person at the ToJ after the battle. How do we know THEY (the collective whole) were still at the ToJ as Ned embraced his dying sister? The app:

"At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy"

How do we know the app is canon and approved by GRRM: well, you could go back a page to where I cited it for Frey Family Reunion, but I'll just do it again

X

Ok, so we are at the ToJ with a dying Lyanna (app confirmation + canon of app confirmation); there is a "they" = / = Howland Reed by his lonesome so we need more than one person. The Three KG are dead dead dead. So what do we know about Lyanna and Rhaegar? Well we know she was pregnant (if you want me to cite proof of that, then you might be in the wrong thread). We know that pregnancy in Westeros is hard. We know that midwives are used by high born ladies to help bring their children into the world (cf: any time pregnancy is discussed in the series...also, logic). Therefore the most sound conclusion is that there must have been, at minimum, a midwife at the ToJ. Going further we would expect that the Prince and his Lady would need help in the day to day living, which for them would mean cooking, cleaning,ect. They could do it themselves with the help of the 2 KG--but that seems like a bit of a stretch since 1) high borns don't do that stuff on a regular basis (cf: the series in which we are presented with nothing but highborns NOT doing that) and 2) the KG need to be on guard duty not out washing the linens. Therefore, logic dictates that there was at least one servant in addition to the midwife.

Hey I just read the livejournal entry you linked and it very clearly states the following:

"Have you ever forgotten who killed who, or who's who's parents while having a conversation at a coffee shop or between novels on the bus? Well now that The new official WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE app is available you can fact check any and all things Ice and fire anywhere you find yourself. The app is on sale for the iPad, iPhone, and Nook, a limited free version of the app is up and ready for fans to download with additional info pack available as well. It features profiles of more than 540 characters, 380 places, and major houses, along with interactive world maps. This exclusive guide to all things Ice and Fire is easy to navigate featuring beautiful art, and easy touch access to any query you may have on your journey through Westerous. You can read new text specially written for the app by Elio M. Garcia and Jr. and Linda Antonsson all about your favorite characters and their histories. So go and download yours today and get access to the World of Ice and Fire at your fingertips."

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

One more time, eh?

1. Of course it's all speculation. Everything we discuss on this forum is speculation unless it has been made explicit in the books. I'm not going to start every sentence with "my speculation is..." or some variation thereof. If I speak in what seems to be absolutes it's to save myself from typing the same thing over and over. If that was unclear...fine. But given that you ended your previous post with "it's all extremely straightforward" are you not equally at fault for speaking in absolutes and accusing everyone else of being narrow minded?

(passing over 2 as there is nothing new)

3. Ok, if there were faults in my parsing, that's on me and I'll accept a better parsing. However I'd contend that Howland Ned are part of the ten that originally came together in battle and the only two (of those who came together in battle) that rode away but not part of the full group at the TOJ. Only two of those original ten who came together in battle rode away. You're also still not dealing with how this flies in the face of certain character traits, particularly Hightower's.

The app: I'm not sure why you're ignoring the app when I've provided links (twice now) to GRRM's own blog that GRRM worked on with the people who wrote it, answering extensive questions. If you're really looking for all the evidence that RLJ compiled about why the app is canon and done with GRRM, then I'd suggest going back about...hmm...15-20 threads which, I believe, was the last time it was brought up and discussed. You think it's a work of fanfiction but it was done in conjunction with GRRM, something again I keep linking to, but you appear to be ignoring--the very thing you're accusing me of doing.

4. I did not write a new chapter? I pointed out facts and quotes from GRRM, just like you're doing, and then added my own speculation based on conversations that I've had with others here in RLJ. The fact that you're just dismissing it as fanfiction is rather rude.

Also, please stop calling me Ser. I'm a woman. Assuming that I am male for some reason is also rude and not okay. I understand the profiles are down and therefore you can't really take a quick peak to see which gender I align with, but in that case it's perhaps better to avoid titles like "ser" or "lady" or anything else at all, no?

[BearQueen87]

Hey I just read the livejournal entry you linked and it very clearly states the following:

"Have you ever forgotten who killed who, or who's who's parents while having a conversation at a coffee shop or between novels on the bus? Well now that The new official WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE app is available you can fact check any and all things Ice and fire anywhere you find yourself. The app is on sale for the iPad, iPhone, and Nook, a limited free version of the app is up and ready for fans to download with additional info pack available as well. It features profiles of more than 540 characters, 380 places, and major houses, along with interactive world maps. This exclusive guide to all things Ice and Fire is easy to navigate featuring beautiful art, and easy touch access to any query you may have on your journey through Westerous. You can read new text specially written for the app by Elio M. Garcia and Jr. and Linda Antonsson all about your favorite characters and their histories. So go and download yours today and get access to the World of Ice and Fire at your fingertips."

With GRRM. I am well aware that Ran and Linda wrote the actual app. But the journal entry clearly states that GRRM was asked exhaustive questions and he answered them about all sort of ASOIAF lore. That is why I keep saying in conjunction with GRRM not BY GRRM (implying him and him alone)

ETA: do you consider the world book canon? Cause it's the same deal. Ran and Linda had tons of one on one time with GRRM; GRRM answered questions, said yay or nay to stuff, wrote some of it himself (like Aegon's conquest). So...is the World Book canon for you?

[Voice]

Also, please stop calling me Ser. I'm a woman. Assuming that I am male for some reason is also rude and not okay. I understand the profiles are down and therefore you can't really take a quick peak to see which gender I align with, but in that case it's perhaps better to avoid titles like "ser" or "lady" or anything else at all, no?

OMG! I am so sorry! I remembered your old Mormont avatar, so I just assumed you were an eccentric dude... My bad.

One more time, eh?

1. Of course it's all speculation. Everything we discuss on this forum is speculation unless it has been made explicit in the books. I'm not going to start every sentence with "my speculation is..." or some variation thereof. If I speak in what seems to be absolutes it's to save myself from typing the same thing over and over. If that was unclear...fine. But given that you ended your previous post with "it's all extremely straightforward" are you not equally at fault for speaking in absolutes and accusing everyone else of being narrow minded?

(passing over 2 as there is nothing new)

3. Ok, if there were faults in my parsing, that's on me and I'll accept a better parsing. However I'd contend that Howland Ned are part of the ten that originally came together in battle and the only two (of those who came together in battle) that rode away but not part of the full group at the TOJ. Only two of those original ten who came together in battle rode away. You're also still not dealing with how this flies in the face of certain character traits, particularly Hightower's.

The app: I'm not sure why you're ignoring the app when I've provided links (twice now) to GRRM's own blog that GRRM worked on with the people who wrote it, answering extensive questions. If you're really looking for all the evidence that RLJ compiled about why the app is canon and done with GRRM, then I'd suggest going back about...hmm...15-20 threads which, I believe, was the last time it was brought up and discussed. You think it's a work of fanfiction but it was done in conjunction with GRRM, something again I keep linking to, but you appear to be ignoring--the very thing you're accusing me of doing.

4. I did not write a new chapter? I pointed out facts and quotes from GRRM, just like you're doing, and then added my own speculation based on conversations that I've had with others here in RLJ. The fact that you're just dismissing it as fanfiction is rather rude.

1. Of course, tis all speculation in the end. But my argument was not speculative.

2. There is no two, then... ;)

3. We've no evidence of any other group at the tower of joy. Ned and Howland, alone, rode away. So, either they killed the servants you have created, those servants decided to remain with eight piles of bloody rocks, or GRRM has forgotten about them when writing the books and speaking of the tower of joy at appearances.

4. It shouldn't be taken as rude. It's simply accurate. I could blunt my words, but these posts are long enough already... And I don't really mind fan fiction, some of it is quite good. Yours included. I can see how it is a viable alternative, by naming it fan fiction, I am merely pointing out it is a scenario that is not supported by the text...

With GRRM. I am well aware that Ran and Linda wrote the actual app. But the journal entry clearly states that GRRM was asked exhaustive questions and he answered them about all sort of ASOIAF lore. That is why I keep saying in conjunction with GRRM not BY GRRM (implying him and him alone)

Conjuction. As in someone asked him questions as he ate lunch... I get what you're saying. And I'm not trying to say he was ignorant of the app's existence, but it wasn't his thing. It was Elio and Linda's thing.

Going back to my original point, the citation in question sounds far more like a fan interpretation than it does GRRM. Well, as it happens, your link suggests that's precisely the case.

[Ygrain]

And you know this how? Did George Martin confirm that Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne abducted Lyanna?

This is actually something that can be concluded from the text itself and the app just says it explicitely. Dayne, Whent and Hightower are found at ToJ. Hightower was sent there later to fetch Rhaegar. Ergo, it is quite likely that Dayne and Whent were there with Rhaegar wince the very beginning. Furthermore, Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend and the only place where Rhaegar went completely on his own was Summerhall, so most possibly, Rhaegar had at least Dayne with him when he abducted Lyanna. So the app confirmed Dayne's presence, for which there already was a sound base, and added Whent, for whom there was a logical guess but not that much basis.

Granted--more likely betrayed if actually at Starfall, but not by too much. They're in the middle of nowhere. Servants would have to go back and forth with supplies. Sending directions via raven still would betray location.

And back to the tower--pulled down by hand. Why on earth (okay, planetos) stay there long term? If risking supplies and servants, just give it up and go to Starfall. Or anywhere else with supplies and clean linen.

Agree on numbers and timeline--but still: fever dream. Ned's associating things. The misery of his loss now that he's back in a mess with Robert. The pointless loss of life--the Kingsguard, Lyanna, his men outside Baelish's--this is not just timeline info (though it gives some), this is Ned's psyche, too. Mixed in with fever. Not sure it works to take it literally timeline wise.

1) If the supplies were run by only a handful of well-chosen loyal servants, the secret would still be quite safe, whereas in a castle, you cannot trust everyone.

2) They had horses there, and we see several times in text that structures are weakened by fire.

3) "Fever dream" seems to be some kind of mantra these days. It is an old dream, so he has dreamt it before, and on those other occasions he was certainly not feverish nor under poppy milk. Furthermore, this old dream is described as about "three white knights, a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood" - in other words, he keeps dreaming about these three, it is not a one-time connection. The details may differ these three elements remain.

As for not trusting Ned--agreed. But they ONLY talk of vengeance. Not of protecting their potential baby King. Don't even mention Rhaegar--only anger at not killing Usurper and not saving Aerys. They DO state they are true Kingsguard--so why avoid bringing up the baby? They know they are in for a fight. Are they trying not to make Ned angrier?

Excuse me? There is no talk of vengeance, only of the possibility of being able to change the outcome, had they been present. What they express is unwavering loyalty to House Targaryen and their duty.

In a way, the do bring up the baby - when they refer to themselves that they are true KG and are going to stay and fight on behalf of their vows, it's as if they said that they are going to stay and fight because they have a king to protect.

[moodious]

If Jon is Targaryen why doesn't he have any Targaryen features?

[Ygrain]

If Jon is Targaryen why doesn't he have any Targaryen features?

Why Robb doesn't have any Stark features when he is a Stark?

It's not like there haven't been Targaryens without their trademark features - they took after the other parent.

[moodious]

Why Robb doesn't have any Stark features when he is a Stark?

It's not like there haven't been Targaryens without their trademark features - they took after the other parent.

Lucky Ned. I can't imagine how he would explain a Targaryen blonde as his bastard.

[Lord Wraith]

I think Lonmouth (who is still alive as Lem) wasn't overly thrilled with Rhaegar's plan involving Lyanna and may have departed ways prior to the kidnapping (perhaps meeting either Brandon Stark himself or someone who then ran into Brandon and telling them what had happened).

I don't know if JonCon knew about the plan beforehand or not....? I doubt Martell did if he was one of the companions who set out. I'd wager that only Arthur and Whent knew about Rhaegar plan with Lyanna.

It would make sense considering Robert was his liege lord since he is from the Stormlands.

[Ygrain]

Lucky Ned. I can't imagine how he would explain a Targaryen blonde as his bastard.

Indeed. Luckily, the baby was apparently dark-eyed and dark-haired, so he didn't have to come up with a cover story :-)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Edit: And did Eddard and Howland then murder these retainers?

Hmm... An interesting question. The problem I've always had with adding Starfall to the story (Jon at Starfall, Lyanna at Starfall, etc) was that there would be quite a number of people who would know the truth.

Which is why I personally don't think that the 'they' who found Ned included a multitude of servants. If any, one seems to have been enough, perhaps two.. but more? No.

Assuming both Lyanna and Jon were at the tower, could 'they' have been Howland and Jon? In that case, the KG would have moved the babe to a room away from the sick mother. Or can't a grown man and a baby count as 'they found him'?

[Ygrain]

Hmm... An interesting question. The problem I've always had with adding Starfall to the story (Jon at Starfall, Lyanna at Starfall, etc) was that there would be quite a number of people who would know the truth.

Which is why I personally don't think that the 'they' who found Ned included a multitude of servants. If any, one seems to have been enough, perhaps two.. but more? No.

Assuming both Lyanna and Jon were at the tower, could 'they' have been Howland and Jon? In that case, the KG would have moved the babe to a room away from the sick mother. Or can't a grown man and a baby count as 'they found him'?

Not necessarily with Jon himself - if, say, some servant's daughter/sister/niece Wylla arrived with her baby, no-one would give it a second though. A pregnant noblewoman accompanied by KG, not to mention on very Targ-looking prince, is a different kettle of fish, though.

I don't think that "they found" is a natural way of including a man with a baby as the baby can hardly participate in the action of finding.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Not necessarily with Jon himself - if, say, some servant's daughter/sister/niece Wylla arrived with her baby, no-one would give it a second though. A pregnant noblewoman accompanied by KG, not to mention on very Targ-looking prince, is a different kettle of fish, though.

Despite her not having been pregnant before? That's the thing about switching babies. Either the woman who takes the child needs to have been pregnant herself for the plan to work, or she needs to move to a new location with the child, where no one knew her before.

I don't think that "they found" is a natural way of including a man with a baby as the baby can hardly participate in the action of finding.

Ah, ok, I was wondering about that. Ok, then that scenario is not very likely... :)

[Ygrain]

Despite her not having been pregnant before? That's the thing about switching babies. Either the woman who takes the child needs to have been pregnant herself for the plan to work, or she needs to move to a new location with the child, where no one knew her before.

I meant, if she hadn't lived at Starfall before, or had been absent for a prolonged period of time.

[Greymoon]

The best explanation (for the "they found him") was the one offered by KingMonkey (I think), some weeks ago, that the fight with the KG occurred after Lyanna died. The KG and the other northerners, these are the people that found Ned, holding onto her body.

And imo, the fight occurred because the KG and Ned both wanted to protect Jon, but didn't agree, or couldn't agree, on the best way to go about it. Ned had Lyanna's promise - which I suspect included 'don't let them crown him'. Like in Myrcella's case, crowning Jon would have been equivalent to killing him. Or the promise could have been, to ‘get him back’.

Did women in the middle ages have any ‘right’ to their children, or were children considered the 'property' of men? We see how Oberyn treats the mothers of his bastards – all but Ellaria. He takes their daughters away, leading in Obara’s case, to her mother’s death.

Would the KG care to keep Lyanna and Jon together? Or did they care only about Jon’s safety, to the point that they did not hesitate to separate the two?

I don’t think we can truly doubt that Lyanna was at the tower. We can, however, doubt that Jon was present, because Lyanna was ill, and because three KG alone could not have hoped to defend their prince, had Robert marched to meet them.

The KG, as we learn through Jaime’s PoV can delegate responsibility, though. They have a ritual, every time they meet to make certain the King is guarded and safe, even in their absence. In that light, the three KG were free to leave Jon as long as they delegated responsibility to someone they trusted, and as long as they were not going in any direct way against an order.

So, Jon could have been guarded by a thousand men and thick castles walls – at Starfall, under the responsability of Arthur's brother and sister. Lyanna could have given birth at Starfall, and the reason she was at the ToJ when Ned found her, was because the KG were bringing her back, to her brother. That would explain, imo, how Ned found the tower and how he knew to bring only a few men. The KG, or someone at Starfall, contacted him to have Ned meet them half way.

As to why the KG would take on that responsability, instead of staying with Jon:

1) staying with Jon sort of gives the child's identity away and puts him in danger. If Jon was at Starfall, I wouldn't be surprised that the KG (not Ned) entrusted him to Wylla, and passed her off as his mother.

2) the KG are considered honorable, dutiful and trustworthy, and a-political. Their white cloak seems to offer diplomatic 'immunity'. (compare to Ned chosing Barristan Selmy to read out the King's decree). So they were the best suited for bringing Lyanna back to her brother, without fear of reprisal.

3) The KG could have planned to make their way to Dragonstone after, to ‘debrief’ with Queen Rhaella.

4) They could have decided to travel to KL after, to face the Usurper and a potential sentence if they refused to bend the knee.