Mithras Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I think the promise was to tell Jon of his true parents when the time was right. Ned didnot need Lyanna's words to protect baby Jon from getting crowned and risking Robert's wrath. Ned already had a bitter fight with Robert over the dead bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys. Jon was just another "dragonspawn" for Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I think the promise was to tell Jon of his true parents when the time was right. Ned didnot need Lyanna's words to protect baby Jon from getting crowned and risking Robert's wrath. Ned already had a bitter fight with Robert over the dead bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys. Jon was just another "dragonspawn" for Robert. Ah, and Lyanna, being a bookish person and having read "A Game of Thrones" would have known that already. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 There's one basis i don´t think it's well covered, and that's the idea that Robert would kill Jon in Ned's mind... maybe Lyanna believed it and Ned just kept the promise out of his love for her... but Ned believing Bob would kill Jon doesn´t seem right at least as of AGOT... “He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can’t you see the danger that would put us in?”Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. “Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!”“You knew the man,” she said. “The king is a stranger to you.”Catelyn II AGOT There would be other dangers, but the vast majority believes the promise was to protect Jon from Robert, which doesn´t add up with Ned's beliefs at the beginning of AGOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 There's one basis i don´t think it's well covered, and that's the idea that Robert would kill Jon in Ned's mind... maybe Lyanna believed it and Ned just kept the promise out of his love for her... but Ned believing Bob would kill Jon doesn´t seem right at least as of AGOT... He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Cant you see the danger that would put us in?Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!You knew the man, she said. The king is a stranger to you.Catelyn II AGOT There would be other dangers, but the vast majority believes the promise was to protect Jon from Robert, which doesn´t add up with Ned's beliefs at the beginning of AGOTI think Ned got comfortable and kinda forgot about Robert's hatred of the Targs, but when he is around him again the readers are clearly shown how Robert's Targ hate makes Ned uncomfortable. And about the promise I think people are thinking too much about it. I think Lyanna simply asked him to look after Jon and protect him, Ned took it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I think the promise was to tell Jon of his true parents when the time was right. Ned didnot need Lyanna's words to protect baby Jon from getting crowned and risking Robert's wrath. Ned already had a bitter fight with Robert over the dead bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys. Jon was just another "dragonspawn" for Robert. Yet 14 years later Ned says: "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!" "would never harm me or any of mine" does not sound like "I was almost certain 14 years ago that Robert would harm Lyanna's baby." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 "would never harm me or any of mine" does not sound like "I was almost certain 14 years ago that Robert would harm Lyanna's baby." Rhaegar's dragonspawn is none of "Ned's", though. And he knows it. And you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The best explanation (for the "they found him") was the one offered by KingMonkey (I think), some weeks ago, that the fight with the KG occurred after Lyanna died. The KG and the other northerners, these are the people that found Ned, holding onto her body.The best explanation for "they found him" is that there was a wetnurse because you don't have to juggle with timelines or solve the logistics of two nonlactating males transporting a newborn for miles and miles or wonder how Wylla got on the bandwagon. Just saying. There's one basis i don´t think it's well covered, and that's the idea that Robert would kill Jon in Ned's mind... maybe Lyanna believed it and Ned just kept the promise out of his love for her... but Ned believing Bob would kill Jon doesn´t seem right at least as of AGOT... “He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can’t you see the danger that would put us in?”Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. “Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!”“You knew the man,” she said. “The king is a stranger to you.”Catelyn II AGOT There would be other dangers, but the vast majority believes the promise was to protect Jon from Robert, which doesn´t add up with Ned's beliefs at the beginning of AGOT"No children, only dragonlings" Robert? Of course he wouldn't kill Jon himself, he would only turn away and be grateful to the cronies who would gladly do it for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 If Jon is Targaryen why doesn't he have any Targaryen features? Dunno. Why didn't Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter with Elia)? Why didn't Baelor Breakspear? Why didn't the three sons of Rhaenerya Targaryen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I think the promise was to tell Jon of his true parents when the time was right. Ned didnot need Lyanna's words to protect baby Jon from getting crowned and risking Robert's wrath. Ned already had a bitter fight with Robert over the dead bodies of Aegon and Rhaenys. Jon was just another "dragonspawn" for Robert. Lyanna wouldn't know any of that. I don't know why it can't be both protect him and "someday tell him" The best explanation for "they found him" is that there was a wetnurse because you don't have to juggle with timelines or solve the logistics of two nonlactating males transporting a newborn for miles and miles or wonder how Wylla got on the bandwagon. Just saying. Yes that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Rhaegar's dragonspawn is none of "Ned's", though. And he knows it. And you know it. Ned said Jon is "my blood". That would make Jon part of "me and mine." And he knows it. And you know it. Unless you have some other explanation for Ned's certainty, 14 years later, that Robert would never harm Ned or his family. Ned doesn't seem to be living in fear that Robert will find out RLJ and come murder Jon Snow. I can't find a single shred of text that give any indication of this, in fact we have evidence that Ned is confident Robert isn't going to rage-kill Ned or his family. He would "never" do that, not "I've lived in fear for 14 years that Robert would do exactly that." How is a grown "dragonspawn" LESS of a threat? We have evidence that the grown dragonspawn (Dany) are more of a threat to Robert. Dany and Viserys disappear for some years, then Robert starts keeping an eye on them. He doesn't order a hit until Dany is married to a powerful Khal with an army and pregnant. Robert "would never harm [Ned] or [his family]", said with all confidence by Ned when he is supposedly harboring a grown "dragonspawn." And Robert, in the end, calls off the assassination of Dany because of Ned's pleading. Are we to believe Ned could not convince Robert to spare his own nephew, Robert's beloved Lyanna's own blood, in the same way? Then or now? It's not like Ned was raising him to be the Targaryen heir, quite the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 "No children, only dragonlings" Robert? Of course he wouldn't kill Jon himself, he would only turn away and be grateful to the cronies who would gladly do it for him. Those would be the other dangers... In the same sentence Ned explains that Robert says things in the heat of the moment he later regrets, so the dragonspawn comment was just rage talking... Even the Dany issue (which was his job as protector of the realm and aproved by the council), he later regrets it, and dany is full Dragonspawn Tywin himself says he would not have the heart to do it, and Ned tells Catelyn he would never harm any of his (Jon being his nephew)... Would Jon still be in danger? Yes From Robert? Not enough proof to convince me at least, or Ned it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Ned had to make a guess, whether or not Roberts love for himself and Lyanna would be bigger than his hatred for Rhaegar.And that might have been an impossible question for Ned to answer with any kind of certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Ned had to make a guess, whether or not Roberts love for himself and Lyanna would be bigger than his hatred for Rhaegar.And that might have been an impossible question for Ned to answer with any kind of certainty. And given that Ned's last interaction of Robert before finding Lyanna was Robert talking about dragonspawn while looking at two dead babies....I'd say that Ned leaned one way more than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 If Jon is Targaryen why doesn't he have any Targaryen features?Just as Rhaegar's first child with Elia favored her looks, his first child with Lyanna favored hers. I doubt he has no Targ features, just nobody is looking for them in him. Even the description of the darkness of his grey eyes may indicate that, while not outright purple, some "Targness" is present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The best explanation for "they found him" is that there was a wetnurse because you don't have to juggle with timelines or solve the logistics of two nonlactating males transporting a newborn for miles and miles or wonder how Wylla got on the bandwagon. Just saying. "No children, only dragonlings" Robert? Of course he wouldn't kill Jon himself, he would only turn away and be grateful to the cronies who would gladly do it for him. Okay. I didn't say Wylla wasn't part of it, though. I just didn't mention her specifically. It's not juggling with timelines either. Ned dreams about riding to the ToJ, and then he dreams about the dialogue and the fight. Later, awake, he remembers finding Lyanna, and the promises made on her death bed. So, what timeline are we speaking of? Nowhere, as far as I know, does Ned think, "I killed the KG and then, I found Lyanna dying." We assume that because in the dream sequence the fight between Ned and the KG follows immediatly after Ned's arrival at the ToJ that this is how it happened in real life. But it's a dream sequence, and Lyanna actually doesn't appear in the dream - safe at the very end, but the voice is external to the dream sequence, thus disturbing it. Would Lyanna have made an appearance at all, if not for that voice calling Ned? Anyway, it's not juggling with timelines, it's entertaining the possibility that we are missing information, a whole sequence of events that happened between the moment Ned arrived, and the moment he engaged in a fight with the KG. And besides, you have to juggle with the logic of having Lyanna giving birth to Rhaegar's son, in an abandonned watch tower. And what about the logistics for getting food and (clean) water supplies, the logistics for communication, and of access to a maester/midwife? Having Jon at Starfall, removes most of these problems, and the one you mentionned too, about how Wylla got involved and how Jon was moved. If he was born at Starfall, he wasn't transported over miles of arrid mountain slopes. If I was a KG, I'd make sure to have Rhaegar's son safe behind thick castle walls, not somewhere near the greatest road into dorne, in an apparently 'deserted' location that just happens to be close to Manwoody and Fowler lands - wardens of the pass, meant to patrol that area where the ToJ is supposedly at. I'm certain there was hundreds of better hides, better places far away from dorne, and from the pass to hide in, if secrecy was truly what the ToJ was all about. and, tbh, if I were Rhaegar I'd not have hiden Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, either. imo, we either need one very good explanation for why Rhaegar would think it a good idea to stay there - and I mean, a better explanation than 'they were hiding from Aerys' or it was to 'keep their marriage secret'; or we have to accept the possibility that all is not as it seems, and that maybe Rhaegar never meant for Lyanna to stay at the ToJ - and that it was, maybe, only later that Lyanna was brought there. We have, as far as I'm aware, no indication that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the ToJ from the begining to the end - the moment where Ned found her. So that leaves us with two possibilities 1) Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the toj all this time, for a specific reason, or 2) They weren't at the tower of joy, and Lyanna was only brought there later. imo, both can be argued, though the first only makes sense if we go beyond the argument of secrecy, and the ToJ being perfect for lovey-dovey stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 There's one basis i don´t think it's well covered, and that's the idea that Robert would kill Jon in Ned's mind... maybe Lyanna believed it and Ned just kept the promise out of his love for her... but Ned believing Bob would kill Jon doesn´t seem right at least as of AGOT... He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Cant you see the danger that would put us in?Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!You knew the man, she said. The king is a stranger to you.Catelyn II AGOT There would be other dangers, but the vast majority believes the promise was to protect Jon from Robert, which doesn´t add up with Ned's beliefs at the beginning of AGOTNed found Jon and Lyanna after having it out with Robert over the murder of Rhaegar's two other children and their mother. Ned may not have thought Robert would hurt him or his, but Jon isn't really his, he is Rhaegar's, hence hiding his identity from Robert and everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 As to why the KG would take on that responsability, instead of staying with Jon: 1) staying with Jon sort of gives the child's identity away and puts him in danger. If Jon was at Starfall, I wouldn't be surprised that the KG (not Ned) entrusted him to Wylla, and passed her off as his mother. 2) the KG are considered honorable, dutiful and trustworthy, and a-political. Their white cloak seems to offer diplomatic 'immunity'. (compare to Ned chosing Barristan Selmy to read out the King's decree). So they were the best suited for bringing Lyanna back to her brother, without fear of reprisal. 3) The KG could have planned to make their way to Dragonstone after, to ‘debrief’ with Queen Rhaella. 4) They could have decided to travel to KL after, to face the Usurper and a potential sentence if they refused to bend the knee. Yes--this works. Especially #4. Not too sure about #3. When Darry is mentioned, KG say he is a loyal man, but the KG do not flee. Seems awfully harsh to imply Darry "fled" when he's getting Rhaella and Viserys out of the country. Unless the KG have decided it's all lost. No chance of getting Viserys or Jon onto the throne. The only King they can serve is Aerys--avenge him. Maybe that's why they don't "flee" with Jon. May be why they don't mention regaining the throne or raising and army. Just Usurper and false brother--that's "now it begins." Their revenge. Still not sold on Lyanna being in the TOJ--sticking to my points. And since Martin said not to take the fever dream literally--what are readers at risk of taking literally? The wraiths? Really thinking most readers aren't going to assume Ned has stolen characters from Tolkien. Readers aren't likely to be mislead by such dreamlike imagery. So what's the part that we might take wrong? I'm guessing it's that the KG are at the TOJ to guard anyone--Lyanna isn't there. Jon's not there. Really easy to conflate those events in the brain if Ned's POV is conflating them in his own dream. ETA: I certainly conflated them--assumed Lyanna was in the TOJ--until it started to seem odd for all the reasons mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Lyanna wouldn't know any of that. I don't know why it can't be both protect him and "someday tell him" The 3 KG knew the Sack and the murder of the Targaryens there. Lyanna might have heard the news just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Still not sold on Lyanna being in the TOJ--sticking to my points. And since Martin said not to take the fever dream literally--what are readers at risk of taking literally? The wraiths? Really thinking most readers aren't going to assume Ned has stolen characters from Tolkien. Readers aren't likely to be mislead by such dreamlike imagery. So what's the part that we might take wrong? I'm guessing it's that the KG are at the TOJ to guard anyone--Lyanna isn't there. Jon's not there. Really easy to conflate those events in the brain if Ned's POV is conflating them in his own dream. ETA: I certainly conflated them--assumed Lyanna was in the TOJ--until it started to seem odd for all the reasons mentioned above. But when GRRM says don't take the fever dream literally, which parts of it does he want us to not take literally? Is it the whole thing--as in everything Ned dreams (a dream that makes perfect sense to him and one he's had before) doesn't resemble reality in anyway? Or is it that the events are real--Ned, 3KG, Lyanna, TOJ--but have been reworked in Ned's subconscious because he now has the gift of hindsight, that he knows the 3KG were protecting Rhaegar's son (legit or not, I'm leaving THAT argument at the door) and so the conversation between Ned and the 3KG becomes one that reflects that knowledge instead of what may or may not have been said in the historical reality. Also, I gotta ask: what is gained in the narrative by having Lyanna and Baby Boy Jon at Starfall? And how does Ned know to go there? And why didn't Ned go there in the first place? Why wouldn't one KG go to Starfall with Lyanna and Jon? How did Ned secure the loyalty of all the servants at Starfall who would have known that Lyanna just gave birth to a baby boy after living in the castle for some indeterminate amount of time? Why did Rhaegar name the TOJ what he did if Lyanna and he were never there? And if they were there, when did Lyanna move to Starfall? And why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The 3 KG knew the Sack and the murder of the Targaryens there. Lyanna might have heard the news just the same. The Sack, yes. The murder of the Targ babies, yes. But would she have known that Robert called the Targ babies "dragonspawn"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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