R+L=J v.143

[Alia of the knife]

And where does the app get this information from? And why leave Oberyn out, the Worldbook at least implies that Oberyn may have been one of Rhaegar's confidants as well.

In collaboration with Martin himself.

I think that it's a good bet that there might have been a disagreement amongst the young companions about Rhaegars taking Lyanna, and only Dayne and Whent as sworn KG were left to go with him.

[BearQueen87]

And where does the app get this information from? And why leave Oberyn out, the Worldbook at least implies that Oberyn may have been one of Rhaegar's confidants as well.

The app was done in conjunction with GRRM. Someone sat and asked him questions and he answered. And where are you getting Oberyn? The World Book just says "The Dornishmen" but doesn't specify any Dornishmen outside of KG Martell.

[BearQueen87]

In collaboration with Martin himself.

I think that it's a good bet that there might have been a disagreement amongst the young companions about Rhaegars taking Lyanna, and only Dayne and Whent as sworn KG were left to go with him.

I think Lonmouth (who is still alive as Lem) wasn't overly thrilled with Rhaegar's plan involving Lyanna and may have departed ways prior to the kidnapping (perhaps meeting either Brandon Stark himself or someone who then ran into Brandon and telling them what had happened).

I don't know if JonCon knew about the plan beforehand or not....? I doubt Martell did if he was one of the companions who set out. I'd wager that only Arthur and Whent knew about Rhaegar plan with Lyanna.

[Alia of the knife]

I think Lonmouth (who is still alive as Lem) wasn't overly thrilled with Rhaegar's plan involving Lyanna and may have departed ways prior to the kidnapping (perhaps meeting either Brandon Stark himself or someone who then ran into Brandon and telling them what had happened).

I don't know if JonCon knew about the plan beforehand or not....? I doubt Martell did if he was one of the companions who set out. I'd wager that only Arthur and Whent knew about Rhaegar plan with Lyanna.

Exactly. That's why I say I think Lyanna was the outlier regarding "the plan," and threw everything off track, starting with Harrenhal.

Its somewhat reflected in his statement to Jaime about "roads not taken."

And they could still admire Rhaegar but also regret his actions.

Other than Aerys, he still doesn't seem to regret anything but thinks he can still fix it all when he gets back as he fully expected to win.

[MtnLion]

So if Jon/Lysa's betrothal occurred after the BotB then there was no pre-agreement? One must marvel at the speed with which the Rebellion began, considering there were no plans to rebel.

As to the vow, as I said yesterday, I've no issue with your argument. I don't think that the KG fighting usurpers of the crown in Dorne proves their king is in Dorne, but honestly, that isn't a very interesting discussion is it?

I'm afraid the date of Jon Arryn's betrothal, and the vow of the KG to protect their king, do not place Lyanna at the toj.

Hey,I didn't open the lines of discussion, you did. I was responding to your post to begin with.

As I have quoted for you, before: He dreamt an old dream¹, of three knights in white cloaks², and a tower long fallen³, and Lyanna in her bed of blood⁴. (in my signature: At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy.)

• Apparently Ned has had this dream before, so I label it recurring, though we don't know how many times. An old dream suggests that he has had it many times over the last fifteen years.

Three Kingsguard, wearing their white cloaks, and later it is connected with Barristan being the final of three Kingsguard protecting the king.

We know that the tower was disused before Lyanna and Rhaegar took up residence. Is it long fallen, as in the last fifteen years? Wood and stone structures come down easily with fire, so it is unlikely that Ned spent a long time pulling the tower down. We know that he did pull it down to build eight cairns (piles of stones to serve as tombs) for the fallen. It says something about Ned's respect for the Kingsguard that he took the time to bury them separately, let alone at all.

Yes, this is all one sentence, it ties Lyanna to the tower; the Kingsguard; and giving birth. This is all one location, and it haunts Ned even fifteen years later.

That is the first sentence on page 424 the beginning of an Eddard chapter. It is a single sentence, it ties all of those things together in one place. That place is the tower of joy, three kingsguard, and Lyanna in her birthing bed. Lyanna was at that tower, along with three kingsguard.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And where does the app get this information from? And why leave Oberyn out, the Worldbook at least implies that Oberyn may have been one of Rhaegar's confidants as well.

How is that implied?

[Voice]

If Ned found Lyanna at the tower of joy, then who are "they" who found him?

Eddard I AGOT:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was fond of flowers."

[BearQueen87]

If Ned found Lyanna at the tower of joy, then who are "they" who found him?

Eddard I AGOT:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was fond of flowers."

The servants R and L and the 3KG brought up from Starfall (or another close location) to help out. Because the crown prince, a highborn lady, and 2 or 3 KG aren't going to be living on their own, especially with Lyanna near giving birth and thus in need of a midwife and other servants.

[Sly Wren]

The servants R and L and the 3KG brought up from Starfall (or another close location) to help out. Because the crown prince, a highborn lady, and 2 or 3 KG aren't going to be living on their own, especially with Lyanna near giving birth and thus in need of a midwife and other servants.

But why drag them all out to a tower that can be torn down by two men? If the Daynes are loyal enough to send attendants, why not just go to Starfall--safer, more comfy--just seems like a lot of work to go to the TOJ.

Plus, if they are there for the express purpose of helping with the birth--again, Starfall much safer--Maester, etc. More comfort for Lyanna, etc.

[Frey family reunion]

The app was done in conjunction with GRRM. Someone sat and asked him questions and he answered. And where are you getting Oberyn? The World Book just says "The Dornishmen" but doesn't specify any Dornishmen outside of KG Martell.

And you know this how? Did George Martin confirm that Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne abducted Lyanna? If I asked Martin this at a Q&A or at a book signing he would confirm this information? Who was the person that asked him if Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne abducted Lyanna? I mean using this as a truism when Martin's own books, including the World Book, are only told through a subjective POV narrator whose observations/memories/or beliefs may or may not be correct seems to go against the ambiguity that he is intentionally setting up in his narrative structure. And I did happen to sit front row in a q&a that he did in Texas where he specifically said that his two favorite descriptions of his story are subtlety and ambiguity. So forgive me if I'm skeptical that he sat down with "someone" and told them point blank that Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne abducted Lyanna.

As for Oberyn, unlike the App, I have no definitive statement to rely on. I just have the World Book to go on where it said that the Dornishmen who had come to court with Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence. Oberyn tells Tyrion that he and his sister were inseparable in their youth, and we believe that Oberyn was at the very least in Elia's company for the Harrenhal tourney since Meera's story includes a Red Viper. So no, I don't know for sure, but I think there is at least an implication that Oberyn could have been one of the Dornishmen in Rhaegar's confidence.

[BearQueen87]

But why drag them all out to a tower that can be torn down by two men? If the Daynes are loyal enough to send attendants, why not just go to Starfall--safer, more comfy--just seems like a lot of work to go to the TOJ.

Plus, if they are there for the express purpose of helping with the birth--again, Starfall much safer--Maester, etc. More comfort for Lyanna, etc.

By the time Lyanna is discovered to be pregnant--which typically happens two months after conception--it's very possible that they could not risk moving her. Putting a pregnant lady on a horse and riding over mountainous terrain is, generally, not a good idea. And if Lyanna was not having an easy go of it--given that she died (most likely) due to an infection that came about postpartum--then moving her becomes even more dangerous.

As for "why not Starfall in the first place" maybe it wasn't as safe as you image. Ravens freely come and go from Starfall. They do not go to the TOJ. A raven can very easily leave Starfall for King's Landing, telling Aerys everything

[Bael's Bastard]

Nothing is ever stated in the world book about Oberyn being close to Rhaegar, so it seems baseless speculation. The only one they name is Lewyn.

[BearQueen87]

And you know this how? Did George Martin confirm that Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne abducted Lyanna? If I asked Martin this at a Q&A or at a book signing he would confirm this information? Who was the person that asked him if Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne abducted Lyanna? I mean using this as a truism when Martin's own books, including the World Book, are only told through a subjective POV narrator whose observations/memories/or beliefs may or may not be correct seems to go against the ambiguity that he is intentionally setting up in his narrative structure. And I did happen to sit front row in a q&a that he did in Texas where he specifically said that his two favorite descriptions of his story are subtlety and ambiguity. So forgive me if I'm skeptical that he sat down with "someone" and told them point blank that Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne abducted Lyanna.

RLJ has done this before, so I apologize for brevity. You can find more detailed answers in past threads where the APP has been discussed but in brief:

So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch. Yes, he complains when I make him work during lunch.

X

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't see why it would be safe at Starfall, they clearly went into hiding with a very small group. Whoever else was there, I doubt there was just people openly going back and forth to Starfall.

[RumHam]

I think Lonmouth (who is still alive as Lem)

In my opinion that theory, while interesting, is still too crackpot to be casually brought up as a certainty. I think it runs the risk of confusing some people who might read that and think "wow, I never picked up on that" and carry on like it's an established fact (or an all but certain thing, like R+L=J, or Sandor as the Gravedigger.) Maybe link the theory's thread to be more clear.

[BearQueen87]

In my opinion that theory, while interesting, is still too crackpot to be casually brought up as a certainty. I think it runs the risk of confusing some people who might read that and think "wow, I never picked up on that" and carry on like it's an established fact (or an all but certain thing, like R+L=J, or Sandor as the Gravedigger.) Maybe link the theory's thread to be more clear.

I can link to Lady Gwyn's post: https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

[Sly Wren]

By the time Lyanna is discovered to be pregnant--which typically happens two months after conception--it's very possible that they could not risk moving her. Putting a pregnant lady on a horse and riding over mountainous terrain is, generally, not a good idea. And if Lyanna was not having an easy go of it--given that she died (most likely) due to an infection that came about postpartum--then moving her becomes even more dangerous.

As for "why not Starfall in the first place" maybe it wasn't as safe as you image. Ravens freely come and go from Starfall. They do not go to the TOJ. A raven can very easily leave Starfall for King's Landing, telling Aerys everything

Granted with the horse riding.

Still TOJ does not sound like an ideal location or building for long term occupation of any sort. Might want to take the effort to get her to safer place pretty early on--even before pregnancy confirmed, maybe.

And if servants and presumably supplies come from Starfall at some point, ravens of betrayal still just as likely, assuming Daynes (or others) might do that.

Just seems like a lot of work to make a fever dream of related events into a cogent, completely literal timeline . . .

[RumHam]

I can link to Lady Gwyn's post: https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of. :cheers:

[BearQueen87]

Granted with the horse riding.

Still TOJ does not sound like an ideal location or building for long term occupation of any sort. Might want to take the effort to get her to safer place pretty early on--even before pregnancy confirmed, maybe.

And if servants and presumably supplies come from Starfall at some point, ravens of betrayal still just as likely, assuming Daynes (or others) might do that.

Just seems like a lot of work to make a fever dream of related events into a cogent, completely literal timeline . . .

Timeline. Well...I'll just quote KingMonkey:

GRRM + Numbers = nope nope nope.

As for servants coming to the TOJ and ravens still being a possibility---yes, absolutely. But a far less possibility than if they were at Starfall, especially if those supplies and servants didn't know where they were going originally. Also, Rhaegar named the TOJ so I'm not sure if the servants (if they were literate) could say where exactly they were? "Some run down tower in Dorne!" They can't say "we are in the TOJ" because it wasn't known by that name until Rhaegar named it, after taking Lyanna.

[Voice]

The servants R and L and the 3KG brought up from Starfall (or another close location) to help out. Because the crown prince, a highborn lady, and 2 or 3 KG aren't going to be living on their own, especially with Lyanna near giving birth and thus in need of a midwife and other servants.

Beautiful answer. Citation?

Edit: And did Eddard and Howland then murder these retainers?