[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion

[jacksonbrowne]

The whole "but the show is not meant to appeal feminists" kind of arguments are silly and on the verge of absurd. I have not read one single post saying "the show isn't making the political statements we need for our cause" or anything. If people believe this is the same case as the whole Wheedon debacle, then they need to read again and re-evaluate because it's not the same case at all.

Despite all the rambling in the R&R threads, a lot of things are well discussed, as the marvellous article of Cheb's (or Julia's? Sorry, girls!) about the difference between depiction and endorsement, which I think many people here is in urgent need to read. Martin depicts a problem in his books, whether is cruelty, sexism or anything negative as a catalyst for one of the "heroes" to act upon. The show endorses it. It endorses it because the show relies on them to cause a stir in the fandom and to shock them. The show NEEDS those moments that GRRM points out as negative to cause an impression on their fans. And the fact those moments are what keep the audience interested and hooked turns them into "positive". Because it benefits them and their pockets. GRRM writes about a rape so we can see the reactions of those around, whether is their decision to act or their indifference. The show portrays a rape because it will give the show publicity and people will talk about.

I agree that is very tiresome that many people practically DEMANDS any media to follow a certain outline of political causes: 'this show needs more feminist characters!' or 'this book doesn't have any gays on it, it's homophobic!'. Artists shouldn't feel themselves obligated to check up a list of political correct demands. They are or should be free to write whatever they want. Martin has been very clear on how he's not going to write scenes just to please a minority or a requirement and he has been also criticised for not being feminist enough. Yet, despite all of his flaws, he respects his characters. He makes him act consistent, he gives them a characterisation that is solid. He doesn't send them around with the only purpose of suffering a tragedy because that will sell more books. In any case, that's the reason FFC/DWD are so unpopular, because it's a book that relies on characters realising and observing things and growing. The show needs this characters to suffer and fail because that's the show's motto: "anything can happen, anyone can die!". It's a very simple bait that people is, at the end, free to bite if they want to.

So, while some people is mad that the show isn't as "feminist" as Martin (a feminism that I don't see, as I've always believed that Cersei is, for instance, more like a parody or a criticism of the modern radical feminism we see today), some others are simply mad that the show take the characterization of minorities very lightly. Loras is an stereotype to the point the actor himself feels awkward about it. Here, we can separate books from show, because, even if we put the books apart, the show lacks consistence on how they develop certain females characters, specially Sansa. And, the meta information we have about the show production has made us realise that they have wanted to show her being raped since Sophie was a minor, which only is a proof of their assholery as they were practically waiting for her to become legal enough to exploit sexually.

We're not talking about "obsessions". The fact people who like the books feels betrayed by those who said would respect the books is understandable. HBO has failed to realise that the readers are still a big part of the fandom, the one who was going to criticise them the most as Martin's books are not an easy read. This is something I already mentioned in the R&R threads: they can't connect with teh readers because they don't understand that the readers are there to see the things they have read about and there is nothing wrong with that. The show wants to treat the readers as the Unsullied: they want to shock them by changing the one things they shouldn't. The readers know the outcome, they are EXPECTING the outcome. The tension happens in the anticipation, that's the things that should be changed. The example I offered was how in Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry sees Pettigrew in the map unlike the books, in which he doesn't. The readers know he will meet Peter at the end, but THE ANTICIPATION of a meeting makes them wonder "will he see him first? is he going to recognise him?". The change was added at the end and it worked, as everything was kept the same. It was a way to tease those who already knew the result.

D&D have misunderstood this. They have changed the anticipation and the final twist. And they set themselves on the road of disappointment. For example, we KNOW Jon will be stabbed. We know Dany will fly. We know that there is a chance Jorah will get fried. And that Doran might make an speech. But that's all. It's empty. There is no anticipation that makes sense. They changed everything and still want to make the same scenes.. but with a twist! Like, as Quentyn died by dragon fire, readers will loooove see that one scene, so someone has too die, let's put Jorah instead! Unsullied might be very shocked by losing Jorah, but the readers that are expecting this, will simple say "meh". Look at the Dany/Tyrion meeting. They did it because "they wanted it to happen". They changed everything to fit that scene that is meant to be a climax despite the characters are still in the development state. When they meet in books they will have changed and their experiences will add something to the encounter. What's the point of making a reunion of two people that is still the same? It made sense because they wanted it to happen :dunno:

Different than books ergo sucks. We get it. And D&D are assholes and you loathe them. We get it. They have paedophiliac fantasies according to you. Indeed. I am sure they only made the show to cast a young girl so they could drool over the possibility of having her raped on screen as it is just so rad.

There is a "I hate everything Game Of Thrones" ghetto in every subforum here, I am sure you are already missed there.

[jacksonbrowne]

I also remind you all that in this board, the fact two characters from the books just look at each other is reason enough to start one and hundred debates about it. People in this board nitpick EVERYTHING. We all do. So, if anyone here feels somehow... shocked by the fact the readers do this with the show, well... we're that kind of people, why you expect any better? :dunno:

No, it's abundantly clear that there is a group of people that obsess over everything A Song Of Ice And Fire themed with a religious zeal only topped by certain folks at the Middle East.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

This Miodrag quote, paraphrasing David Benioff himself, describes perfectly the overhyped-on-caffeine reactions to this episode:

"Creatively, to a lot of fans and critics alike it made sense to really like 'Hardhome', because they wanted and needed it to be good."

Because no matter if some of you were giving 9's and 10's to a lot of episodes this season: it's been very disappointing as a whole compared to past ones.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Nadaplete

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

No, it's abundantly clear that there is a group of people that obsess over everything A Song Of Ice And Fire themed with a religious zeal only topped by certain folks at the Middle East.

http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/5212148+_39804822a102518bc53737224c18fbe5.gif

Relax dude, D&D are not your parents.

[Mithras]

In George's original draft, he planned to have Dany murder her husband because he would murder her brother and not be committed to the invasion of Westeros. George changed this into what we have today: Dany comes to the point of suicide due to the abuse and rape from Drogo but she has a dream about dragons and suddenly, she is strong!

The original plan was much better. I never see any feminist criticism about this stupid turn of events in the books.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Mithras

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Different than books ergo sucks. We get it. And D&D are assholes and you loathe them. We get it. They have paedophiliac fantasies according to you. Indeed. I am sure they only made the show to cast a young girl so they could drool over the possibility of having her raped on screen as it is just so rad.

There is a "I hate everything Game Of Thrones" ghetto in every subforum here, I am sure you are already missed there.

I assume you might be ten years old. I said this because you seem under the impression that criticism means hate. I'm sure somewhere in your mind you think I'm jealous of them and I'm also ugly and fat. I also assume it because your reading comprehension is a bit... lacking.

I also assume you are that young because you seem to believe that a criticism to the things you like is a direct attack to your ego. And defend your favourite shows is defending your own persona and preferences. That you need the things you like to be liked and accepted because that makes you feel you're in the right track. That saying "that thing you like is bad" is like saying "you're bad, ugly and wrong". Guess what? People like trash. That doesn't make them trash. And liking trash doesn't make the trash any better either.

If you like the show, fine. Go ahead. I won't pass you judgement. But, the fact you and many like the show doesn't make the show be consistent, respectful to the characters and audience and it doesn't make go away the sexist depictions of their female/gay characters. And the fact some people see these flaws on the show doesn't make them some sort of stuck up snobs.

And, yes, the fact you use the word "ghetto" also speaks volumes of what kind of person you seem to be. Because you're practically affirming that those who criticise the show need to be isolated like they're hurtful to the sacred holy community of show fans.

Edited June 4, 2015 by JonCon's Red Beard

[jacksonbrowne]

This Miodrag quote, paraphrasing David Benioff himself, describes perfectly the overhyped-on-caffeine reactions to this episode:

"Creatively, to a lot of fans and critics alike it made sense to really like “Hardhome,” because they wanted and needed it to be good."

Because no matter if some of you were giving 9's and 10's to a lot of episodes this season: it's been very disappointing as a whole compared to past ones.

I agree. I think you should go there and lower your vote. It obviously sucked and there is a ninety two page proof in the rant and rave thread about it.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

I agree. I think you should go there and lower your vote. It obviously sucked and there is a ninety two page proof in the rant and rave thread about it.

I gave it a 4, i don't need to lower it any more. Could've been a 5, but the appalling conversation between Dany & St. Tyrion "you need me" Lannister sucked too much.

[Drogonthedread]

In George's original draft, he planned to have Dany murder her husband because he murdered his brother and was not committed to the invasion of Westeros. George changed this into what we have today: Dany comes to the point of suicide due to the abuse and rape from Drogo but she has a dream about dragons and suddenly, she is strong!

The original plan was much better. I never see any feminist criticism about this stupid turn of events in the books.

you know what i agree with you for the first time ..

iam speaking about Dany's storyline alone

either GRRM must have changed the characters completely or kept them has same like he mention in the letter but instead he mixes both characterisation into a single one

and scrapping of the five year gap as affected Dany most than any other character i think

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This Miodrag quote, paraphrasing David Benioff himself, describes perfectly the overhyped-on-caffeine reactions to this episode:

"Creatively, to a lot of fans and critics alike it made sense to really like 'Hardhome', because they wanted and needed it to be good."

Because no matter if some of you were giving 9's and 10's to a lot of episodes this season: it's been very disappointing as a whole compared to past ones.

I think a better comparison was the whole casual sex analogy. You don't get involved with casual sex. You just do the deed and take a bath and go home. I used to be involved with this show, even when many people criticised many things. I also defended it. And it's not the first trashy show I've defended. Yet, there is a point in which you say "enough". I still found the show be somehow enjoyable during the first episodes. And then, I couldn't anymore. Not because the show itself, but the reactions. The reactions were reactions the producers wanted to make. They appealed to that fandom they KNEW would defend the arc even if using sexist justifications, in the same way they KNEW no one would mind a boy being raped because 'lol, men can't be raped!'. I, personally, didn't want to be involved with the show anymore. I might occasionally watch it, but involved? Nope. The show is my 'casual sex'. It's not wrong to have casual sex with someone that can only offer a good face and some sexy times. My stable relationship is with the book.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And btw, this is the thread for the "episode discussion" not the "the episode was awesome, omg! haters to the left, bitches!". Criticism is something we can discuss and considering this episode presented a peak of viewers, it's proper for us to discuss the reasons why and what the show offered this time that viewers felt attracted to it. Telling someone "take your criticism and go away to your secluded area" like we have the plague is no one's role but the mods, and they aren't that rude, also, is against the rules as we're not breaking them.

Unless this thread exist with the only purpose of telling the show was perfect!, in that case, I'll leave.

[jacksonbrowne]

I assume you might be ten years old. I said this because you seem under the impression that criticism means hate. I'm sure somewhere in your mind you think I'm jealous of them and I'm also ugly and fat. I also assume it because your reading comprehension is a bit... lacking.

I also assume you are that young because you seem to believe that a criticism to the things you like is a direct attack to your ego. And defend your favourite shows is defending your own persona and preferences. That you need the things you like to be liked and accepted because that makes you feel you're in the right track. That saying "that thing you like is bad" is like saying "you're bad, ugly and wrong". Guess what? People like trash. That doesn't make them trash. And liking trash doesn't make the trash any better either.

If you like the show, fine. Go ahead. I won't pass you judgement. But, the fact you and many like the show doesn't make the show be consistent, respectful to the characters and audience and it doesn't make go away the sexist depictions of their female/gay characters. And the fact some people see these flaws on the show doesn't make them some sort of stuck up snobs.

And, yes, the fact you use the word "ghetto" also speaks volumes of what kind of person you seem to be. Because you're practically affirming that those who criticise the show need to be isolated like they're hurtful to the sacred holy community of show fans.

Criticism doesn't mean hate. Hate means hate. When people criticise everything about something, when people jump on every other criticism they haven't yet thought of, when people spend their time in a criticism thread to learn new themes what to criticise and agree on basically all of them and then invent their own, new ones, when the criticism wave seems to lose their momentum a bit, especially when the same people self describe themselves as hate-watchers and are always first in, minutes after the ending of the episode to post a "criticising" thread it reeks of obsession. And hate.

The show has plenty audience and the audience seems to feel respected enough. I found it funny you "won't pass judgement" and on the next paragraph do just that. There's a word that describes everything you stand for quite well. Hypocrisy.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

The show is my 'casual sex'. It's not wrong to have casual sex with someone that can only offer a good face and some sexy times. My stable relationship is with the book.

Ahora te llamarán mojigata y te mandarán a recluirte en tu aburrida vida de pareja con tus aburridos libros :lol:

Anyway, the R&R threads have more variety of opinions than this one, it seems, and supposedly that's the one that works to be an "echo chamber".

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The show has plenty audience and the audience seems to feel respected enough. I found it funny you "won't pass judgement" and on the next paragraph do just that. There's a word that describes everything you stand for quite well. Hypocrisy.

No, hon. Learn to read. I'm not judging you for liking the show. You just told me to go away because I didn't offer any praise to the show. See:

"There is a "I hate everything Game Of Thrones" ghetto in every subforum here, I am sure you are already missed there".

I am not, in any way, telling you "this is a board for the fans of the books, you're stupid, go away!". You are free to stay here and say the show is the best thing that ever happened to mankind if you want. That's up to you. It is you the one who keeps telling that "omg you readers hate everything, leave!" like you can accept criticism or believe that criticism of the show is a criticism of you. Grow up a bit.

[jacksonbrowne]

And btw, this is the thread for the "episode discussion" not the "the episode was awesome, omg! haters to the left, bitches!". Criticism is something we can discuss and considering this episode presented a peak of viewers, it's proper for us to discuss the reasons why and what the show offered this time that viewers felt attracted to it. Telling someone "take your criticism and go away to your secluded area" like we have the plague is no one's role but the mods, and they aren't that rude, also, is against the rules as we're not breaking them.

Unless this thread exist with the only purpose of telling the show was perfect!, in that case, I'll leave.

Didn't you just use the criticism of the episode umbrella to pile upon everything you hate about the show especially and including D&D's assholery? So what you mean is D&D are assholes but this episode was more liked by people, so let's talk some more about what other episodes are doing wrong and how D&D are assholes because of that?

I found funny all the praise Bryan Cogman got from the usual peanut gallery here after the fifth episode. "He's respectful to the source material (read, he copies some direct dialogue lines from the books) unlike those hacks and untalented D&D that can't write their way out of a wet paper bag. We need more Bryan Cogman episodes!!" Ahem. Then came the sixth episode. Written by Bryan Cogman. Was it "burn Bryan Cogman, everyone?" No, it was "D&D are paedophiliac perverts out there to rape minors!!!"

[RoamingRonin]

And, yes, the fact you use the word "ghetto" also speaks volumes of what kind of person you seem to be. Because you're practically affirming that those who criticise the show need to be isolated like they're hurtful to the sacred holy community of show fans.

(I read your full post a page back, for the record).

Anyhow, I want to point out that that's exactly what the R&R thread is all about. That's what they want. You can't go into that thread and counter any argument or else people start raging and threatening to put you on their ignore list. It's strictly for people that want to criticize the show... to call D&D everything but their real names (Dumber and Dumber seems most popular) and to trash what they do as nothing more than "fanfiction" at best. While I'm not happy with all of the changes they've made, I do think they should be afforded some level of respect.

[ShadowKitteh]

Where is Mance?

Oops

D&D&B's way of telling the book readers, "NO. We're NOT glamouring EVER in the show. Faceless Men won that race." ? :dunno:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

(I read your full post a page back, for the record).

Anyhow, I want to point out that that's exactly what the R&R thread is all about. That's what they want. You can't go into that thread and counter any argument or else people start raging and threatening to put you on their ignore list. It's strictly for people that want to criticize the show... to call D&D everything but their real names (Dumber and Dumber seems most popular) and to trash what they do as nothing more than "fanfiction" at best. While I'm not happy with all of the changes they've made, I do think they should be afforded some level of respect.

I agree. But what about the respect for George RR Martin?

Before I start, I'm gonna make myself clear about this: I don't like Martin as a person. I only enjoy his books related to the ASOIAF universe. I have no plans to read anything beyond that and if I ever meet him personally, my only approach to him would be ASOIAF related not him as a person. He doesn't move me in the same way other authors do, for whatever reason I could have.

Yet, I can't help but feel for him as an artist and a writer.

I know the argument many people make about this: "so what! he's mad! He can seek comfort in the pile of money he's getting!". First, it's not like he's poor and he needed HBO to sustain himself. The guy had already a career. Second, the professional integrity of a person is not always related to money. It's about being respected and be recognised as the creator of something that others enjoy. It would be idiotic, in the same way, to say that Martin doesn't mind the money he makes writing books. But that's the same thing we all (or many of us) feel about being paid for doing what we like. Anyone here would say "I'm not charging anyone with my service because I love my job!"? It sounds like something many would do, but reality is, we have to pay debts and stuff.

So, Martin has been paid to give the rights for his work. A work we all agree he has taken too many years to write. A work that has obvious flaws in many aspects. A work whose adaptation he till had some influence on. A work he was assure would be treated with respect.

It was not.

They used Martin's work in a way that completely opposes what he wanted to say. And the media behind it has been very insisting on calling this adaptation "a better work than the original source". In the most recent EW article that includes an interview with him, in the very same article for god's sake, they said "these characters have been made more likeable than the book counterparts". It's there for every one of you to go and read. All of this media has told GRRM, practically to his face, "you're books suck, we can do better". And unlike many other adaptations in which, in fact, the product has turned out to be better than the original (like, dunno, Dan Brown's books?), Martin as a writer has been treated with the most arrogant disrespect that it's impossible for me to not be on his side.

I know well Martin doesn't need my defence. He probably does not care. But me, as a consumer, I've chosen to side with him because I can understand that he is probably very pissed (as someone pointed out, he hasn't update his blog since May 18th). And the reason he's pissed is obvious to everybody. It's not "the changes". He's smart enough that changes were going to be made. In every other interview he has given, reading between lines, we can see how mad is he as he's seeing his work being so disrespected. So, if D&D and anyone who is close to them shows little or zero respect for Martin, why should I show respect for them? :dunno:

[ADanceWithCats]

The whole "but the show is not meant to appeal feminists" kind of arguments are silly and on the verge of absurd. I have not read one single post saying "the show isn't making the political statements we need for our cause" or anything. If people believe this is the same case as the whole Wheedon debacle, then they need to read again and re-evaluate because it's not the same case at all.

[...]

...Personally, I just wanted to say that I loved the episode.

Seriously, though - Where did that come from? I thought that the point of the R&R threads was that all this toxicity would be gathered in one place and not contaminate the rest of the board? What's the purpose of them if other threads get toxic anyway?

[roxWolfox]

Ah. The RnR thread. It used to be an entertaining read, but nowadays is more like a Adam Sandler/Shia LeBeouf kind of funny. But, I will admit, seeing the Miodrag (I will not be watching season 5 of Game of Thrones!) link did make me laugh.

It's one thing to dislike something and be done with it, another to keep ingesting it no matter what it is doing to your sense of well-being. It has something to do with addiction, I think.

Many of us can put the book knowledge aside when watching the show, and do so. Many of the longtime members who have read the books several times and have written countless posts on countless theories want the Mr. Martin version of the story. Those of us who haven't memorized the books aren't as devoted to the never-ending plots or characters.

As for myself, I did read the posting rules:

Similarly, please remain respectful of the cast and crew, especially when it comes to matters such as personal appearance. It's okay to say an actor does not fit your image of a character, or even how the character is described, but it's not acceptable to go on about finding them 'too ugly' for a role or what have you. These are real people, some of whom browse this forum, some who even have a presence here. They've worked hard to create the best show they can. Performance critiques, so long as they're constructive, are of course welcome.

It's a shame more people haven't.

ETA:

back on topic:

I was thrilled to finally see the threat the WW pose exposed. It makes the King's Landing and Meereen backstabbing rather inconsequential. I've been wanting to see them massing since the very first episode all those years ago.

Edited June 4, 2015 by roxWolfox 🍁