[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion

[ADanceWithCats]

I didn't say that I am better and that people who watch the show, and enjoy, are unable to think.

Come on, you literally wrote: "I feel like I have to apologize for actually thinking". This heavily suggests that you think that other people, especially those with another opinion than yours, don't.

some of us are capable of both watching the show and you know, having a few objections.

And here you do this again. Pray tell, what special capability do you need for this? Bitter, relentless hatred that the show refuses to conform to your expectations?

e: I mean, I mostly find your indignation pretty ridiculous. :D But, in general, such otherising of those who have a different opinion is pretty nasty.

e2:

And I agree that some things are not critique, but some things are. And perhaps in those 1500+ post-long threads, 90% are just illegitimate whining, the 10% is very serious criticism that should not be ignored.

You mean the Rant threads? But the Rant threads are designed specifically to be circlejerking cesspools, given how no discussion is allowed there. Why should anyone take what's posted in them seriously?

Edited June 5, 2015 by ADanceWithCats 😸 😹 😺 😻

[Mladen]

Come on, you literally wrote: "I feel like I have to apologize for actually thinking". This heavily suggests that you think that other people, especially those with another opinion than yours, don't.

And here you do this again. Pray tell, what special capability do you need for this? Bitter, relentless hatred that the show refuses to conform to your expectations?

e: I mean, I mostly find your indignation pretty ridiculous. :D But, in general, such otherising of those who have a different opinion is pretty nasty.

e2:

You mean the Rant threads? But the Rant threads are designed specifically to be circlejerking cesspools, given how no discussion is allowed there. Why should anyone take what's posted in them seriously?

Yes, I literally said that. And I mean it. I won't apologize because some people think that GoT should be watch without a bit of critical opinion. These threads are full of "just sit and enjoy" BS.

And second, again, some people can watch the show and be critical of it without resorting to the nastiness. A concept that a lot of fans seem unable to comprehend.

Well, at least I made you laugh. Have a great day :)

[Facebookless Man]

Bitter, relentless hatred that the show refuses to conform to your expectations?

...

But, in general, such otherising of those who have a different opinion is pretty nasty.

Outstanding. Or par for the course, I guess.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Facebookless Man

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm slightly confused why so many people don't think 'Et tu, Brute' is going off.

Hardhome was a great action sequence, and Jon got through it alive.

Now surely, for Unsullied, they will believe all is good for Jon now- until at least another large scale sequence with the WW. All I can see is they will do it for the final episode, after successfully lulling people into a false sense of security now Jon has survived an immediate threat. Classic storytelling technique.

Et tu Brute is definitely going to happen. Either is Olly or Marsh or Thorne or Baby Sam.

The problem I -and some others have- is the anticipation to the moment and what chain of sequences will get him there.

For once, we know already certain facts: the Watch is very aware of the Others being real and a danger. They have lost men fighting against them. This is true in both the books and the show. But, in the books the "Others" are still a abstract concept. They only know stories and tales about them. In the show, otoh, they know they are very very powerful and they are organised. Jon has seen what he can be recognised as a leader. And specially, he knows now what can defeat them and how.

In the books, Hardhome is a place of uncertain. The wildlings might or might not die. They could or could have not died. The Others could or couldn't attack. Jon is making a big gamble with a lot of "if"s. In the show, it has been proved that saving Hardhome was the best course of action. In the books, Hardhome is a risk that they are not sure whether is worthy or not. If anything, the only thing we have are Peake's letters and Mel's visions. That and "Dead things in the water" is a bit of a hint of something big happening there, something that is not just wildlings or the Others attacking. It's not just about the wildlings eating each other. They are returning with information. But Jon and Jon only knows this, and he knows it due to an ambiguous letter from a man who can barely express himself properly and a woman he doesn't fully trust (let's put aside the fact that Hardhome was the place where something cataclysmic happened). The Watch has a lot of reasons to distrust Jon, even though they know the Others are real.

In the show, the situation is different. As I said above, we don't work with "if"s anymore. Even if the wildlings were not worthy, they returned with things they can use. And they saw the strength of the Others with their eyes (not only Jon, others were there). Going to Hardhome was the right course of action because knowing what they found out about the Others gave the watch advantages (knowledge is power). Also, Jon killed one of them.

So, why would they want Jon dead? :dunno:

So, what the possibles outcomes could be?

For some reason, when Jon and the others return, they say "you know what? we don't believe you. You are lying because you wanted to do this because you like the wildlings, you even fucked one of them". Considering all the things they all have seen, and how Janos Slynt was mocked when he dismissed a supernatural danger, this sound lazy and kinda asspull-ish. Of course, there is the chance the show reset itself on its own development and they go for this route.

Another chance is that they realise that the wildlings will eat all of their resources. This is something is discussed in the books when the first group of wildlings arrive. Yet, it's silly. Killing Jon won't solve anything because those hundreds of mouths are still there and considering they're running away from something worst than Winter, they won't say "oh, ok. We'll leave". They outnumber the Watch. (unless Jon leaves them in the different castles of the Wall on his route to CB).

And a final one is something that is also in the books. KL sends message to the Wall about how they will help them if they get rid of Jon. Of course, this hasn't been discussed in the show (AFAIR).

The thing is that the show has been painfully obvious about how Olly is very displeased with Jon's decisions. Jon has now returned from a mission that has saved them. Olly's reaction to it might be very personal, but it doesn't mean the other members of the Watch agree with it after all the things they know now because of that.

[hallam]

I'm hoping I'll feel the same way about FTW at season's end. Honestly D&D are in a tougher spot with this scene than they were with the RW. The book ended so ambiguously!!!!

Yes, I think that if there were no other considerations, D&D would want to resolve the stabby-stabby immediately because they really hate giving cliffhangers and they really dislike using magic as a resolution.

The book leaves no doubt that the only way Jon can survive the stabby stabby is through magic. And that leaves D&D with a $100million season that has to start with a Deus ex Machina escape. They really can't want that to happen.

BUT!

The other option is not much better because whatever the resolution of the stabby stabby, it is going to be a huge reveal of one of the major plot issues of book 6. And there is no way D&D knew for certain if book 6 would come out before season 6 or not. If it is at all possible for that to happen, HBO will definitely want to make sure that the launch of Book6 is an international cultural event like the publication of Deathly Hallows.

I think folk are wrong about Olly as well. D&D know bookreaders better than most here imagine. Olly is obviously going to have a part to play in FTW but remember that he is loyal to Jon above all. FTW is about breaking the Night Watch oath, Olly isn't even a member of the Nights Watch.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Yes, I think that if there were no other considerations, D&D would want to resolve the stabby-stabby immediately because they really hate giving cliffhangers and they really dislike using magic as a resolution.

The book leaves no doubt that the only way Jon can survive the stabby stabby is through magic. And that leaves D&D with a $100million season that has to start with a Deus ex Machina escape. They really can't want that to happen.

BUT!

The other option is not much better because whatever the resolution of the stabby stabby, it is going to be a huge reveal of one of the major plot issues of book 6. And there is no way D&D knew for certain if book 6 would come out before season 6 or not. If it is at all possible for that to happen, HBO will definitely want to make sure that the launch of Book6 is an international cultural event like the publication of Deathly Hallows.

I think folk are wrong about Olly as well. D&D know bookreaders better than most here imagine. Olly is obviously going to have a part to play in FTW but remember that he is loyal to Jon above all. FTW is about breaking the Night Watch oath, Olly isn't even a member of the Nights Watch.

Olly is a member of the Night Watch or he will not be Jon's Steward.

I do not what role or not Olly will take FTW. I do not think people underestimate the petty arguements of men even when face with such an unambiguous threat.

I personally will like FTW to put off until Premiere S6 but I do not think it will.

[Facebookless Man]

Olly was made a steward without ever being a novice or saying the vows.

But hey, awesome zombies, and all that.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

To be fair, the term steward is not exclusive to the Watch. I think he's more a kind of squire or page for Jon and they're using that name because they use it for the one person who is in charge of attending the Lord, which is what Olly is doing.

[dannyk65]

To be fair, the term steward is not exclusive to the Watch. I think he's more a kind of squire or page for Jon and they're using that name because they use it for the one person who is in charge of attending the Lord, which is what Olly is doing.

when he's not sharpening his knife skills

[sj4iy]

Steward is indeed a general term, and doesn't only apply to NWmen.

[RoamingRonin]

Olly was made a steward without ever being a novice or saying the vows.

But hey, awesome zombies, and all that.

... and so was Jon? Sam was rushed through the training process as well (at Jon's behest).

But hey, let's keep forgetting what happened in the books just to complain, and all that.

Edited June 5, 2015 by RoamingRonin

[TheKitttenGuard]

Olly was made a steward without ever being a novice or saying the vows.

But hey, awesome zombies, and all that.

The scene with Davos and Jon.

Davos ask Olly about the NW vows.

Is Olly not in NW because you did not see him take the vows? Jon saying he is his Steward and Davos asking him of the vows convey that he is a brother of the Night Watch.

[Facebookless Man]

I'm pretty sure he is, yes.

[Facebookless Man]

... and so was Jon? Sam was rushed through the training process as well (at Jon's behest).

But hey, let's keep forgetting what happened in the books just to complain, and all that.

Why.

Why was Olly rushed through the training process?

I'm sure you don't need to be reminded the reasons for Jon and Sam, do you?

Edited June 5, 2015 by Facebookless Man

[ADanceWithCats]

Yes, I literally said that. And I mean it. I won't apologize because some people think that GoT should be watch without a bit of critical opinion. These threads are full of "just sit and enjoy" BS.

OK, let me spell this out for you, because you seem to miss my point.

- Having an opinion critical sensu "negative" about something is not evidence of some higher thinking or capabilities than having a positive opinion about this thing. It's just having a different opinion.

- Contrariwise, an opinion critical sensu "of or relating to the judgments of critics about books, movies, art, etc.", need not necessarily be negative. Hence, again, you cannot a priori assume that those who have a positive opinion do not employ their higher faculties.

Yet you iterate statements such as 'actually thinking' or 'some of us are capable'. This is what my beef is with - even though you claim you are not attempting to artificially inflate your importance, your language says otherwise. Stop that, and the conversation will become much more pleasant for everyone. :)

That said, this exercise somewhat bores me, so this will be my last post on the subject.

[RoamingRonin]

Why.

Why was Olly rushed through the training process?

I'm sure you don't need to be reminded the reasons for Jon and Sam, do you?

No, I don't. I haven't forgotten Jon or Sam or Satin's stories. Olly proved himself more than capable during the battle. The boy is not unintelligent. I'm sure Jon chose him for a variety of reasons. Perhaps he wants him close to train him and maybe even to raise him. It's not an illogical choice.

Interestingly enough, there were better candidates for the position of Lord Commander but Sam schemed to put Jon there. In all cases, I accept what has happened and move on. I don't make lame japes about huehuehue zombies which really has no bearing on anything.

Edited June 5, 2015 by RoamingRonin

[Facebookless Man]

You're missing the point entirely.

Yes, I am sure that you are more than capable to make up some kind of rationale to make sense of whatever the show's authors pull out of their asses, which is basically everything they write without the crutch of a story someone else actually bothered to think through.

Is that how stories are supposed to work?

Edited June 5, 2015 by Facebookless Man

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sam isn't actually "rushed". He has been educated all of his life. He is very prepared for the job he was given at the end, not the one they wanted to give him. In any case, he's been given a job that is more suitable for septons or maesters. Are they also required to be trained in arms?

Think this. Sam had a moment of clarity and ran away to the Citadel to became a Maester. Then his father finds out he's there and sends him to the Wall. With this information, you think the Wall had made him train to find what's his skills are? Or would have they send him straight with Maester Aemon because he was useful there?

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Et tu Brute is definitely going to happen. Either is Olly or Marsh or Thorne or Baby Sam.

The problem I -and some others have- is the anticipation to the moment and what chain of sequences will get him there.

For once, we know already certain facts: the Watch is very aware of the Others being real and a danger. They have lost men fighting against them. This is true in both the books and the show. But, in the books the "Others" are still a abstract concept. They only know stories and tales about them. In the show, otoh, they know they are very very powerful and they are organised. Jon has seen what he can be recognised as a leader. And specially, he knows now what can defeat them and how.

In the books, Hardhome is a place of uncertain. The wildlings might or might not die. They could or could have not died. The Others could or couldn't attack. Jon is making a big gamble with a lot of "if"s. In the show, it has been proved that saving Hardhome was the best course of action. In the books, Hardhome is a risk that they are not sure whether is worthy or not. If anything, the only thing we have are Peake's letters and Mel's visions. That and "Dead things in the water" is a bit of a hint of something big happening there, something that is not just wildlings or the Others attacking. It's not just about the wildlings eating each other. They are returning with information. But Jon and Jon only knows this, and he knows it due to an ambiguous letter from a man who can barely express himself properly and a woman he doesn't fully trust (let's put aside the fact that Hardhome was the place where something cataclysmic happened). The Watch has a lot of reasons to distrust Jon, even though they know the Others are real.

In the show, the situation is different. As I said above, we don't work with "if"s anymore. Even if the wildlings were not worthy, they returned with things they can use. And they saw the strength of the Others with their eyes (not only Jon, others were there). Going to Hardhome was the right course of action because knowing what they found out about the Others gave the watch advantages (knowledge is power). Also, Jon killed one of them.

So, why would they want Jon dead? :dunno:

So, what the possibles outcomes could be?

For some reason, when Jon and the others return, they say "you know what? we don't believe you. You are lying because you wanted to do this because you like the wildlings, you even fucked one of them". Considering all the things they all have seen, and how Janos Slynt was mocked when he dismissed a supernatural danger, this sound lazy and kinda asspull-ish. Of course, there is the chance the show reset itself on its own development and they go for this route.

Another chance is that they realise that the wildlings will eat all of their resources. This is something is discussed in the books when the first group of wildlings arrive. Yet, it's silly. Killing Jon won't solve anything because those hundreds of mouths are still there and considering they're running away from something worst than Winter, they won't say "oh, ok. We'll leave". They outnumber the Watch. (unless Jon leaves them in the different castles of the Wall on his route to CB).

And a final one is something that is also in the books. KL sends message to the Wall about how they will help them if they get rid of Jon. Of course, this hasn't been discussed in the show (AFAIR).

The thing is that the show has been painfully obvious about how Olly is very displeased with Jon's decisions. Jon has now returned from a mission that has saved them. Olly's reaction to it might be very personal, but it doesn't mean the other members of the Watch agree with it after all the things they know now because of that.

You know there's another option right? In the books the catalyst for Jon's betrayal was his decision to ride south to rescue his sister. I loved, hated, and was a little confused by Jon's decision to ride to Winterfell. On one hand I loved it, because he thought he was going to rescue his sister, but of course it wasn't even his real sister!

We could still get some form of the pink letter and Jon's decision to go south. This would be a blatant disregard of the Nights Watch oath and would cause others, like Thorne, to revolt against the Lord Commander.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You know there's another option right? In the books the catalyst for Jon's betrayal was his decision to ride south to rescue his sister. I loved, hated, and was a little confused by Jon's decision to ride to Winterfell. On one hand I loved it, because he thought he was going to rescue his sister, but of course it wasn't even his real sister!

We could still get some form of the pink letter and Jon's decision to go south. This would be a blatant disregard of the Nights Watch oath and would cause others, like Thorne, to revolt against the Lord Commander.

Definitely. But the point I was making is that Olly will be involved and Olly so far has been shown to be mad at Jon's decisions about the wildlings.