Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion

Recommended Posts

xD

Posters like yourself make me love this site....we share the same dream, apparently.

XD Well, I doubt it, myself...but I love the fact that there's even a possibility, lol. Optimism is more fun than pessimism, anyway ;)

Edited by sj4iy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

DP

Edited by sj4iy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually disagree and Winterfell plot this season is quite the proof what happens when they have no material to lean into. Benioff made such hilarious lapse this week with that infamous line "creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen." They both lack the subtlety, the nuance in their writing. Their female characters are cliched version of their book counterparts and they have all been transformed into something seen countless time. Dany into Warrior Princess, Cersei into Evil Queen for modern ages, Sansa into victim, Arya in regular tomboy, Catelyn in just a mother. This season they have 6 storylines and two are catastrophic (Winterfell and Dorne), two are lowering IQ (Meereen and KL) and only two are working so far (Braavos and Wall). Furthermore, it seems they are lost in what they actually try to do, what message their work has. That doesn't mean they are the worst people out there, there are far worse shows than GoT, but simply, Martin's work thematically, artistically and lastly character-wise is superior than theirs. Because when left alone, we have idiocies like Winterfell this season.

I agree with the main point--lack of subtlety in writing this season, female characters reduced to certain stereotypes, etc. You put it very well, thanks for your posts. But how can you say Arya is reduced to a stereotype, and claim Braavos storyline is working in the same paragraph???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the main point--lack of subtlety in writing this season, female characters reduced to certain stereotypes, etc. You put it very well, thanks for your posts. But how can you say Arya is reduced to a stereotype, and claim Braavos storyline is working in the same paragraph???

No matter what the characterization, someone will claim it's a tired trope. Sansa? Damsel in distress trope. Arya? Tomboy ninja trope. Melissandre? Powerful seductive witch trope. Catelyn? Grieving mother trope. Brienne? Manly warrior trope. Margaery? Manpulative queen trope. It's just an argument that doesn't make sense. When you reduce everyone to a couple of adjectives they'll fit it any stereotype, and the only purpose it serves is to ignorantly complain about everything for the sake of complaining.

How about Ned Stark? Honorable warrior trope. Joffrey? Angry/Evil king trope. Jon Snow? Melancholy hero trope. Barristan? Famed Knight trope. Ramsay? Vile monster trope. Tyrion? Clever dwarf trope.

It's all just absurd. Just that no one complains about the latter category because they dont appeal to the hordes of internet-third-wave-feminists scoffing at anything and everything put before their eyes.

Edited by DarkAndFullOfTurnips

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I start to wonder when did a set of books become a sort of religious obsession to some people to an extent that it's adaption incites such a level of hatred towards everything in it that some people find time to list every single aspect of said adaption with remarks of just what and how much they happen to hate it. Be it writing, be it directing, be it costumes, be it music, be it lead or secondary character acting, be it differences to the gospels OR similarities to the gospels. EVERYTHING annoys them. It's as the very existence of said adaption is a personal insult to those people.

This. I usually enjoy several of the posters in the Rant and Rave thread but the bitterness became unbearable.

Nope. He was gonna suggest having Sir Robert Strong intervene

Yeah. I thought they'd talk about the impossibly heavy armor Qyburn orders like they do in the books. Edited by RoamingRonin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed the last 20 minutes of this episode, everything else was pretty bland to me. I can't wait for the fighting pits scene and Cersei's walk of shame. Just sucks that the whole thing picked up now and we only have 2 episodes to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I start to wonder when did a set of books become a sort of religious obsession to some people to an extent that it's adaption incites such a level of hatred towards everything in it that some people find time to list every single aspect of said adaption with remarks of just what and how much they happen to hate it. Be it writing, be it directing, be it costumes, be it music, be it lead or secondary character acting, be it differences to the gospels OR similarities to the gospels. EVERYTHING annoys them. It's as the very existence of said adaption is a personal insult to those people.

:bowdown: You're my new friend!

The funny thing about the Rant & Rave is that every incarnation of that thread gets to 1000+ posts. At first, you might think that there's a lot of people bashing the show there, but when you read the posts, you realize that they are like, I don't know, the same 10-12 guys posting there every single day, every 15 minutes, saying the same things (some variation of the good old "but in the books..." argument). I love to read them anyway, they're pretty funny in their obsessions.

Edited by Barristan Whitebeard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we all think olly will be the books bowen marsh and stab jon? He seems to resent jon befriending the wildings for obvious reasons

No, it would be too obvious and direct.

Instead Olly is going to try to save him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No matter what the characterization, someone will claim it's a tired trope. Sansa? Damsel in distress trope. Arya? Tomboy ninja trope. Melissandre? Powerful seductive witch trope. Catelyn? Grieving mother trope. Brienne? Manly warrior trope. Margaery? Manpulative queen trope. It's just an argument that doesn't make sense. When you reduce everyone to a couple of adjectives they'll fit it any stereotype, and the only purpose it serves is to ignorantly complain about everything for the sake of complaining.

How about Ned Stark? Honorable warrior trope. Joffrey? Angry/Evil king trope. Jon Snow? Melancholy hero trope. Barristan? Famed Knight trope. Ramsay? Vile monster trope. Tyrion? Clever dwarf trope.

It's all just absurd. Just that no one complains about the latter category because they dont appeal to the hordes of internet-third-wave-feminists scoffing at anything and everything put before their eyes.

Bravo! I agree completely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:bowdown: You're my new friend!

The funny thing about the Rant & Rave is that every incarnation of that thread gets to 1000+ posts. At first, you might think that there's a lot of people bashing the show there, but when you read the posts, you realize that they are like, I don't know, the same 10-12 guys posting there every single day, every 15 minutes, saying the same things (some variation of the good old "but in the books..." argument). I love to read them anyway, they're pretty funny in their obsessions.

I thought the thread was probably people ranting about the idiots who come to complain about the show.

Its the same with the interminable R+L=J thread which is up to 141 threads now. Superficially, it looks like the theory is really solid because of all the posts. But there are thousands of different folk pointing out the obvious holes in the theory (like Jon would still be a bastard and it matters and it is way too obvious to be the solution) and only a dozen cranks who have 10,000 posts or more keeping it going by tearing into anyone who dares contradict their notion.

And then of course there are all the threads from people who have spotted the great big plot holes in the episodes they haven't shown yet. Though that seems to have largely stopped happening after I started making fun of them for it.

It really shouldn't take a degree in nuclear physics to work out that if LittleFinger's plot was obvious to everyone in episode two, it wouldn't be much of a crafty scheme. Yes children, of course LF knew what was going to happen to Sansa, he didn't care. Whatever the outcome in Winterfell or Kings Landing, LF now becomes Warden of the North, the only thing he hasn't reckoned with is the possibility that the Stark family isn't going to go along with his plans because Jon is about to become the true Targarean heir and Bran and Rickon are still alive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing bothers me about the Sansa/Reek scene.

After what transpired last week with the candle, would the Boltons have more guards around Sansa's chambers? Much less still having Reek deliver her food? I mean they were both screaming so loud I wouldve bet all of Winterfell could've heard them.

You don't get it. Ramsay enjoys setting them up that way. He's somewhere close by, chomping on a sausage and smiling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No matter what the characterization, someone will claim it's a tired trope. Sansa? Damsel in distress trope. Arya? Tomboy ninja trope. Melissandre? Powerful seductive witch trope. Catelyn? Grieving mother trope. Brienne? Manly warrior trope. Margaery? Manpulative queen trope. It's just an argument that doesn't make sense. When you reduce everyone to a couple of adjectives they'll fit it any stereotype, and the only purpose it serves is to ignorantly complain about everything for the sake of complaining.

How about Ned Stark? Honorable warrior trope. Joffrey? Angry/Evil king trope. Jon Snow? Melancholy hero trope. Barristan? Famed Knight trope. Ramsay? Vile monster trope. Tyrion? Clever dwarf trope.

Hodor? Hodor Hodor Hodor trope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't say that is a show problem. Her arc in Mereen is pretty boring and dull in both books and Show, if you ask me.

Season 3 covered her ASOS arc, and she was pretty good in there, both Emilia (her Emmy nomination was over the top, but she gave a good performance throughout the season) and the writing.

I don't wholly disagree, but Mereen had its moments in the books. And Dany herself was interesting, in what was going on in her mind, and she was the prime focus of all those chapters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also feel like its supposed to foreshadow a possible reasoning between the remaining Starks and Dany.

Although they're imprinted on their mama, Danaerys's dragons are disobedient. At least three Stark children are wargs. Jon's been holed, Bran can't walk but will fly, and Arya's all cat and wolf. The dragon has three heads...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:bowdown: You're my new friend!

The funny thing about the Rant & Rave is that every incarnation of that thread gets to 1000+ posts. At first, you might think that there's a lot of people bashing the show there, but when you read the posts, you realize that they are like, I don't know, the same 10-12 guys posting there every single day, every 15 minutes, saying the same things (some variation of the good old "but in the books..." argument). I love to read them anyway, they're pretty funny in their obsessions.

I'm not big on me-too'ing or high fiving but yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The whole "but the show is not meant to appeal feminists" kind of arguments are silly and on the verge of absurd. I have not read one single post saying "the show isn't making the political statements we need for our cause" or anything. If people believe this is the same case as the whole Wheedon debacle, then they need to read again and re-evaluate because it's not the same case at all.



Despite all the rambling in the R&R threads, a lot of things are well discussed, as the marvellous article of Cheb's (or Julia's? Sorry, girls!) about the difference between depiction and endorsement, which I think many people here is in urgent need to read. Martin depicts a problem in his books, whether is cruelty, sexism or anything negative as a catalyst for one of the "heroes" to act upon. The show endorses it. It endorses it because the show relies on them to cause a stir in the fandom and to shock them. The show NEEDS those moments that GRRM points out as negative to cause an impression on their fans. And the fact those moments are what keep the audience interested and hooked turns them into "positive". Because it benefits them and their pockets. GRRM writes about a rape so we can see the reactions of those around, whether is their decision to act or their indifference. The show portrays a rape because it will give the show publicity and people will talk about.



I agree that is very tiresome that many people practically DEMANDS any media to follow a certain outline of political causes: 'this show needs more feminist characters!' or 'this book doesn't have any gays on it, it's homophobic!'. Artists shouldn't feel themselves obligated to check up a list of political correct demands. They are or should be free to write whatever they want. Martin has been very clear on how he's not going to write scenes just to please a minority or a requirement and he has been also criticised for not being feminist enough. Yet, despite all of his flaws, he respects his characters. He makes him act consistent, he gives them a characterisation that is solid. He doesn't send them around with the only purpose of suffering a tragedy because that will sell more books. In any case, that's the reason FFC/DWD are so unpopular, because it's a book that relies on characters realising and observing things and growing. The show needs this characters to suffer and fail because that's the show's motto: "anything can happen, anyone can die!". It's a very simple bait that people is, at the end, free to bite if they want to.



So, while some people is mad that the show isn't as "feminist" as Martin (a feminism that I don't see, as I've always believed that Cersei is, for instance, more like a parody or a criticism of the modern radical feminism we see today), some others are simply mad that the show take the characterization of minorities very lightly. Loras is an stereotype to the point the actor himself feels awkward about it. Here, we can separate books from show, because, even if we put the books apart, the show lacks consistence on how they develop certain females characters, specially Sansa. And, the meta information we have about the show production has made us realise that they have wanted to show her being raped since Sophie was a minor, which only is a proof of their assholery as they were practically waiting for her to become legal enough to exploit sexually.



We're not talking about "obsessions". The fact people who like the books feels betrayed by those who said would respect the books is understandable. HBO has failed to realise that the readers are still a big part of the fandom, the one who was going to criticise them the most as Martin's books are not an easy read. This is something I already mentioned in the R&R threads: they can't connect with teh readers because they don't understand that the readers are there to see the things they have read about and there is nothing wrong with that. The show wants to treat the readers as the Unsullied: they want to shock them by changing the one things they shouldn't. The readers know the outcome, they are EXPECTING the outcome. The tension happens in the anticipation, that's the things that should be changed. The example I offered was how in Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry sees Pettigrew in the map unlike the books, in which he doesn't. The readers know he will meet Peter at the end, but THE ANTICIPATION of a meeting makes them wonder "will he see him first? is he going to recognise him?". The change was added at the end and it worked, as everything was kept the same. It was a way to tease those who already knew the result.



D&D have misunderstood this. They have changed the anticipation and the final twist. And they set themselves on the road of disappointment. For example, we KNOW Jon will be stabbed. We know Dany will fly. We know that there is a chance Jorah will get fried. And that Doran might make an speech. But that's all. It's empty. There is no anticipation that makes sense. They changed everything and still want to make the same scenes.. but with a twist! Like, as Quentyn died by dragon fire, readers will loooove see that one scene, so someone has too die, let's put Jorah instead! Unsullied might be very shocked by losing Jorah, but the readers that are expecting this, will simple say "meh". Look at the Dany/Tyrion meeting. They did it because "they wanted it to happen". They changed everything to fit that scene that is meant to be a climax despite the characters are still in the development state. When they meet in books they will have changed and their experiences will add something to the encounter. What's the point of making a reunion of two people that is still the same? It made sense because they wanted it to happen :dunno:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also remind you all that in this board, the fact two characters from the books just look at each other is reason enough to start one and hundred debates about it. People in this board nitpick EVERYTHING. We all do. So, if anyone here feels somehow... shocked by the fact the readers do this with the show, well... we're that kind of people, why you expect any better? :dunno:


Edited by JonCon's Red Beard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although they're imprinted on their mama, Danaerys's dragons are disobedient. At least three Stark children are wargs. Jon's been holed, Bran can't walk but will fly, and Arya's all cat and wolf. The dragon has three heads...

and they are all wolfs not dragons ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×