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[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion

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Olly may go rogue. Which is so much less interesting than FTW but ends up with the same plot outcome of "dead" Jon.

It's not that it's not interesting. It makes no sense. Jon is returning to say "I just killed one of them with Valyrian Steel. He has a limitless army". Why would they try to kill him? Are they suddenly not believe him? Why? They all know he's not talking about snarks and grumkins.

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Yeah, that's another thing. Jon in ADWD gets betrayed because Marsh & Co. saw him as irresponsible for meddling in the affairs of the Northern Lords. Yes, some resented them for the concessions to the Wildings, sending Cotter Pyke and valuable resources to rescue them (if they cast Mallister, why not Pyke, BTW), but deep down they all knew he was right about most of these decisions, so they wouldn't attempt against his life if he didn't give them another, better excuse.



What's it gonna be in the show? A personal vendetta from Olly, perhaps Thorne and who knows who else, against Jon and by extension, Sam. That's the most likely, and much less powerful scenario IMO.


Edited by Nadaplete

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Just realized that Jon Snow needs to die and be brought back to life as an immortal in order to be able to fight the White Walkers. Wow!! What an episode. I'm ready to forgive the Sansa Rape and even the Dorne fight scene after this epic episode. Everything was bang on. From Sansa finding out that her brothers might be alive to the White Walker massacre at hardhome. Incredibly fight scene. Can't wait to see what is going to happen next. Loved the interaction between Tyrion and Dany. Dany finally does have an advisor worthy of her. This is going to be a power couple (not really couple). I wonder when and how they will find out about the white walker invasion.


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Just realized that Jon Snow needs to die and be brought back to life as an immortal in order to be able to fight the White Walkers. Wow!! What an episode. I'm ready to forgive the Sansa Rape and even the Dorne fight scene after this epic episode. Everything was bang on. From Sansa finding out that her brothers might be alive to the White Walker massacre at hardhome. Incredibly fight scene. Can't wait to see what is going to happen next. Loved the interaction between Tyrion and Dany. Dany finally does have an advisor worthy of her. This is going to be a power couple (not really couple). I wonder when and how they will find out about the white walker invasion.

Why would dying make him immortal? And why is immortality required for him (or anyone) to defeat the White Walkers?

The thing about the White Walkers is that if you cut off the head, the rest dies. So, kill the White Walkers, the wights are gone.

In any case, immortality is boring. Peril is what makes a character interesting...it's why so many people dislike Superman. People like underdogs who have to fight to overcome overwhelming odds.

Edited by sj4iy

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Yes, because criticising the show and the producers and their decisions is the same as saying "what? your opinion of the show is not positive?! go away!".

I feel like I have to apologize for actually thinking while the show is on. It is like it is demanded of the viewers to shut down all brain activity and just "enjoy the show" you are watching. I am sorry, but I a, going to watch this and will criticize things I think are bad. If you have problems with that, then I am sorry, but I can't help you.

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It's not that it's not interesting. It makes no sense. Jon is returning to say "I just killed one of them with Valyrian Steel. He has a limitless army". Why would they try to kill him? Are they suddenly not believe him? Why? They all know he's not talking about snarks and grumkins.

Because they didn't see it and they still think he is trying to fight for the enemy.

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Why would dying make him immortal? And why is immortality required for him (or anyone) to defeat the White Walkers?

The thing about the White Walkers is that if you cut off the head, the rest dies. So, kill the White Walkers, the wights are gone.

In any case, immortality is boring. Peril is what makes a character interesting...it's why so many people dislike Superman. People like underdogs who have to fight to overcome overwhelming odds.

Depends on what kind of immortality we're talking here ;). Angel was an awesome show and he was a vampire.

But immortality and invulnerability... Well, that's just no fun.

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Because they didn't see it and they still think he is trying to fight for the enemy.

There were other NW witnesses who can vouch for the NK and the Others killing a ton of wildlings and then immediately raising them into wights.

So, the show should find a different reason for them to stab him than making peace with the wildlings to fight the Others, because they're not 100% sure on the threat, because after Hardhome they will be 1000% sure of the threat.

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There were other NW witnesses who can vouch for the NK and the Others killing a ton of wildlings and then immediately raising them into wights.

So, the show should find a different reason for them to stab him than making peace with the wildlings to fight the Others, because they're not 100% sure on the threat, because after Hardhome they will be 1000% sure of the threat.

look they are obviously not going to be able to give the full richness of background that made FTW in the books "overdetermined" as they say. That's a simple function of time available, if they went down that route with minimal backgrounding, the usual folks here would be complaining about that instead, you can't please some people.

I think we should hold off on detailed discussion on what approach they take for the two weeks until we see what actually happens, but on the hypothetical assumption that they are using Olly as more of a John Wilkes Booth than a Brutus, well i and others may be OK with that, lets watch and see.

Stepping back from adaptational issues and looking to the wider field of drama, there are umpteen approaches used to support an a attack on the great leader: Shakespeares Julius Caeser is the one reference by GRRM, but Iago ruins Othello's life for far less, and Tybalt kills Mercutio more or less by accident. In real life, we have many equally misguided acts against peacemakers- the killers of Yitzak Rabin , Sadat, Gandhi just off the top of my head.

People who complain in advance that this won't be plausible should think how much of this is a question of fidelity versus dramatic plausibility.

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No, I was asking if you had something else in mind.

Oh! No, I don't think there's more to it. Olly is having a crisis of conscience right now and it will lead to him betraying Jon.

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I feel like I have to apologize for actually thinking while the show is on. It is like it is demanded of the viewers to shut down all brain activity and just "enjoy the show" you are watching. I am sorry, but I a, going to watch this and will criticize things I think are bad. If you have problems with that, then I am sorry, but I can't help you.

Yeah, it's like "thinking" should be only activated when we discuss the books.

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It's not that it's not interesting. It makes no sense. Jon is returning to say "I just killed one of them with Valyrian Steel. He has a limitless army". Why would they try to kill him? Are they suddenly not believe him? Why? They all know he's not talking about snarks and grumkins.

That is what I was saying - "they" aren't going to do it. Olly will do it. Going rogue. Going solo. I like the idea that maybe Thorne will try to lead some kind of peaceful and law-abiding revolt to change command but Olly will take it too far. My prediction anyways, FWIW.

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That is what I was saying - "they" aren't going to do it. Olly will do it. Going rogue. Going solo. I like the idea that maybe Thorne will try to lead some kind of peaceful and law-abiding revolt to change command but Olly will take it too far. My prediction anyways, FWIW.

Yep. It's likely. Either way, he's going to be involved.

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I feel like I have to apologize for actually thinking while the show is on. It is like it is demanded of the viewers to shut down all brain activity and just "enjoy the show" you are watching. I am sorry, but I a, going to watch this and will criticize things I think are bad. If you have problems with that, then I am sorry, but I can't help you.

Yes, you great thinker, you. :rolleyes:

Don't confuse 'coming at the show from a position of hatred and finding arguments to validate your feelings' with 'thinking'. What you should apologise for is for insinuating that others don't think. You're no special snowflake... other people simply think and like what they see. That makes you - or them - no better.

Seriously, stop with the straw. It's not even cute.

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Yes, you great thinker, you. :rolleyes:

Don't confuse 'coming at the show from a position of hatred and finding arguments to validate your feelings' with 'thinking'. What you should apologise for is for insinuating that others don't think. You're no special snowflake... other people simply think and like what they see. That makes you - or them - no better.

Seriously, stop with the straw. It's not even cute.

You know that making sense is regarded as a criminal offense here by some?

On related note. Apparently now the clothes some of the characters wear make some people here rip their hair out in despair.

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I didn't see it mentioned, but there is one several second shot that I really liked. It was when we see Jon, Tormund, and Edd running to the docks. They are running towards the camera, and we see Wun Wun running behind them holding his log. Loved that shot with the music playing in that moment.


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I didn't see it mentioned, but there is one several second shot that I really liked. It was when we see Jon, Tormund, and Edd running to the docks. They are running towards the camera, and we see Wun Wun running behind them holding his log. Loved that shot with the music playing in that moment.

Me too! I'm glad someone else has noticed that shot. Frankly, Miguel Sapochnik's direction was absolutely top notch. I really hope he will be back next season.

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