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[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion

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Except now it's going to be crazy retarded for Jon to even consider leaving the wall and taking any number of fighters away from it.



Also, don't tell me we've been inflicted that Olly kid over and over again for naught...


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Exactly.

Agreed. I just re-watched all the episodes of season so far and basically you see Olly at Castle Black more than anyone else. Even when the camera pans for an expected Jon reaction, we are looking at the back of Jon's head to see Olly's facial expression of confusion or disapproval. The only takeaway since he just showed up at the end of last season in time to kill Ygritte is that Olly is going to make a very important, probably bad decision and they really wanted to the audience to know his name and his face since there hasn't been enough time to actually endear him as a character.

As for Jon, I have to wonder if the letter is going to be a person instead, someone can give him details about certain events happening in Winterfell. It would have to be pretty graphic to get Jon to leave his post after the Night's King stare down.

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Exactly.

I meant to tell you on the R&R board: you ought to be glad D&D left out JonC- there's no way they'd have done it right. They'd probably flanderise him into gayngst.

Edited by Winter's Knight

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You know there's another option right? In the books the catalyst for Jon's betrayal was his decision to ride south to rescue his sister. I loved, hated, and was a little confused by Jon's decision to ride to Winterfell. On one hand I loved it, because he thought he was going to rescue his sister, but of course it wasn't even his real sister!

We could still get some form of the pink letter and Jon's decision to go south. This would be a blatant disregard of the Nights Watch oath and would cause others, like Thorne, to revolt against the Lord Commander.

That would be better, but it will still be a little strange, since he didn't do fuck all to try and find his brother Bran who he knows is alive somewhere up North, so for him to throw away all of his vows over Sansa especially the sister who he was never close with...be kind of odd.

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snip

e2:

You mean the Rant threads? But the Rant threads are designed specifically to be circlejerking cesspools, given how no discussion is allowed there. Why should anyone take what's posted in them seriously?

No.

Discussion is allowed in the rant threads, just within the confines of criticism. It means there is a safe haven for such opinions to be discussed, just like the positive nitpicking threads are a safe haven for discussion within the confines of what people like about the show.

A post is a post, wherever it is posted. To claim the whereabouts of a post is indicative of its value is ridiculous. Why should you take my post seriously? You shouldn't. At least not until you've read it.

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Definitely. But the point I was making is that Olly will be involved and Olly so far has been shown to be mad at Jon's decisions about the wildlings.

I posted my own personal crackpot theory in another thread, but here we go:

Jon reads the Pink Letter and proceeds to leave for Winterfell. Tormund is marching right beside him. Olly runs up with a knife attempting to kill Tormund, but at the last second Jon grabs him. At this point FTW happens unbeknownst to Olly.

What I like about this: All the obvious Olly foreshadowing is really classic misdirection, and the pink letter gives Throne and Co. a legit reason to want to assassinate the Lord Commander.

What I don't like: After what transpired at Hardhome it doesn't really make sense for Jon to leave the wall since he did not leave for other family members. In fact, it would make sense now more than ever for him to not leave for anyone (including Arya). For the PL to be convincing in the show there will need to be something added that compels Jon to break his oath.

Edited by TheWhiteRabbit

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That would be better, but it will still be a little strange, since he didn't do fuck all to try and find his brother Bran who he knows is alive somewhere up North, so for him to throw away all of his vows over Sansa especially the sister who he was never close with...be kind of odd.

He knows exactly where Sansa is, though. Bran could be anywhere North of the Wall. He wouldn't know where to start.

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Not only do I think there's no time for anything like the pink letter in the two hours that's left of this season, but now, after the ARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEAD and the Fate of All Mankind, after Hardhome, Jon has zero reason to leave the wall short of SAVING ALL OF HUMANITY. His half-sister doesn't hold a candle to that.



Jon didn't leave the Wall for Robb and a WAR when he was young and stupid. Why would he leave it for Sansa when he's now the LC and he needs to help SAVE THE WORLD?



I guess for me, leaving the Wall for Sansa, NOW, seems almost laughable, and no longer fits the plot because #ARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEAD.



It worked fine in the books when it wasn't even Arya (who he was far closer to), because Jon didn't go to Show Hardhome, and the books didn't have the show's Army of the Dead.



Show Jon went to Show Hardhome and fought Show Army of the Dead. Jon's mission, Jon's victory, Jon's proven worth as LC. The stakes for the Show World are a bazillion times higher now for everyone and everything, more than Book World at this same point. They know MORE about the real enemy now. Nothing else should matter. Because if Jon and Co can't start saving the world immediately, it won't matter if he saves Sansa.



If they go ahead with the Pink Letter, I hope they save it and stabby stabby (if it even happens), for next season so it's not rushed, or lost with all the other big stuff coming in the next two hours. (Ramsay, Roose, Stannis, Shireen, Mel, Selyse, Yara, Mace, Meryn, Arya, Dany & the Pit, Cersei, FrankenStrong, Jamie, Bronn, Doran, Myrcella, the Sand Snakes, and everyone at the Wall.)


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You're missing the point entirely.

Yes, I am sure that you are more than capable to make up some kind of rationale to make sense of whatever the show's authors pull out of their asses, which is basically everything they write without the crutch of a story someone else actually bothered to think through.

Is that how stories are supposed to work?

You're more than welcome to check my post history and see all of the criticisms I've made toward the show. It's not all positivity. In this case, Olly as Jon's squire makes sense. What I don't like is how obvious it is Olly is going to do something dramatic. I wouldn't be surprised if Jon went down cursing Olly's "sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

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... and so was Jon? Sam was rushed through the training process as well (at Jon's behest).

But hey, let's keep forgetting what happened in the books just to complain, and all that.

Only think people are complaining about is the whining of folk like you. The show has never said Olly is a NW member and it has never said that the Steward has to be a NW member, nor have the books.

Castle Black is very short on people right now and Jon has better things for the NW men to do than bring him his food. Extrapolating from what is never said in the books to identify a GAPING PLOT HOLE IN THE SHOW only shows desperation.

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Not only do I think there's no time for anything like the pink letter in the two hours that's left of this season, but now, after the ARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEAD and the Fate of All Mankind, after Hardhome, Jon has zero reason to leave the wall short of SAVING ALL OF HUMANITY. His half-sister doesn't hold a candle to that.

Jon didn't leave the Wall for Robb and a WAR when he was young and stupid. Why would he leave it for Sansa when he's now the LC and he needs to help SAVE THE WORLD?

I think that is what GRRM was getting at in his butterflys point.

The show runners (correctly) believe that the show has to make more of the White Walkers before Jon gets stabbed. Otherwise it will just be dismissed as yet another lead character in GoT being killed off. They have to raise the stakes. Problem is that Hardhome raises them too high for FTW to make sense as written.

Jon did raid Craster's keep in his search for Bran. He can certainly go looking for Sansa without breaking character as establshed on the show. But the pink letter might have a credibility problem.

At this point though it is a plot problem, not a hole. Lets see how they solve it. I suspect part of the solution will turn out to turn on it being the real Sansa up north, not fake Jeyne Poole.

Sansa turns up at Castle Black and tells Jon what Ramsay did to him could well be the replacement for the pink letter in the show.

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Only think people are complaining about is the whining of folk like you.

Right.

The show has never said Olly is a NW member and it has never said that the Steward has to be a NW member, nor have the books.

Neither did I.

Castle Black is very short on people right now and Jon has better things for the NW men to do than bring him his food.

This doesn't make sense.

Extrapolating from what is never said in the books to identify a GAPING PLOT HOLE IN THE SHOW only shows desperation.

I think you need to go back and re-read the discussion.

Edited by RoamingRonin

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Only think people are complaining about is the whining of folk like you. The show has never said Olly is a NW member and it has never said that the Steward has to be a NW member, nor have the books.

Castle Black is very short on people right now and Jon has better things for the NW men to do than bring him his food. Extrapolating from what is never said in the books to identify a GAPING PLOT HOLE IN THE SHOW only shows desperation.

Why does the show needs to explicitly state that Olly is now in the Night Watch? What does him being a Steward, knowing the vows, and being at the election to vote for LC indicate? Honestly some people love to state the better intellect of people who ready the books yet when complain because a manner is not explicitly stated. With all the complaints of Olly being shown you now want a scene of him taking his vows?

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I know this doesn't settle, whether or not Olly is a NW member at this point. But he did know the entire vows of the Watch. Davos asking him to recite them, implies the fact that, he is a member.

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Final (?) Thought:



- Jon knows how to kill Wights. Why didn't he and his men break out fire?


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You're more than welcome to check my post history and see all of the criticisms I've made toward the show. It's not all positivity. In this case, Olly as Jon's squire makes sense. What I don't like is how obvious it is Olly is going to do something dramatic. I wouldn't be surprised if Jon went down cursing Olly's "sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

One Bazliion points for Serenity/Firefly reference. :wub:

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Final (?) Thought:

- Jon knows how to kill Wights. Why didn't he and his men break out fire?

They didn't exactly have an ample time to prepare for battle. I also think when they are staging a large scale rescue mission they are not always dragging their Wight Fighting Kit 2000 behind them with all the tar buckets and matches and whatnot.

Edited by jacksonbrowne

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I think that is what GRRM was getting at in his butterflys point.

The show runners (correctly) believe that the show has to make more of the White Walkers before Jon gets stabbed. Otherwise it will just be dismissed as yet another lead character in GoT being killed off. They have to raise the stakes. Problem is that Hardhome raises them too high for FTW to make sense as written.

Jon did raid Craster's keep in his search for Bran. He can certainly go looking for Sansa without breaking character as establshed on the show. But the pink letter might have a credibility problem.

At this point though it is a plot problem, not a hole. Lets see how they solve it. I suspect part of the solution will turn out to turn on it being the real Sansa up north, not fake Jeyne Poole.

Sansa turns up at Castle Black and tells Jon what Ramsay did to him could well be the replacement for the pink letter in the show.

I agree with everything except, Jon went to Crasters to kill or capture the mutineers, not search for Bran.

I said this earlier, but I think it would be awesome for the show to skip stabby stabby altogether, since it makes little sense now, and visually, it will be death-overkill, along the lines of things that break the internet and people like to go crazy over (too much rape/boobs/vagina/Olly, etc) due to Hardhome, the Pit, Shireen(threat or real), Battle of Winterfell, and the thousands more that will likely die in the next two hours (Loras? Myrcella? Tommen? Jorah? Balon Greyjoy (finally)? We know Yara is showing up.)

If they're going to have the Pink Letter be the catalyst for Jon to leave, (even though at this point I can't imagine anything making Jon leave short of abandoning the Wall, and getting everyone as far south as south goes), that would be the only reason brothers other than Olly would turn on Jon now. Otherwise, it will most likely be just Olly, Jon not even discussing leaving, because, "Wildlings killed my Mum and Dad."

I really feel there will be no Pink Letter. Think about it, the way they've so carefully orchestrated Jon's overall arc from bastard boy wanting to come with his uncle ranging north of the Wall, to attempting desertion to join Robb... to being the strong, obvious choice for Lord Commander of The Night's Watch and Savior of the North (ShowJon is light years beyond BookJon at this point because of ShowHardhome ), "I will live and die at my post." If the show did anything to suddenly break that - they'd have to do it extremely carefully - and even then, I don't know if it would be possible for it to not look insane. I just can't see Jon saying, "Oh noes! I've got to go save my half-sister from her lawful husband who happens to legally rape her every night. Fuck my vows and that saving the world and mankind shit." Even if those aren't the exact words, they'll mean the same.

It also makes Jon Snow suddenly an imbicile, and leaves the audience feeling like one. Jon must save the world. Because if he doesn't, Sansa and everyone else everywhere, including Jon, will be stone cold dead. :eek:

I think even many of the unsullied feel that the foreshadowing of Olly attempting to hurt Jon is over the top at this point. The show also runs the risk of the audience getting to the point of expecting a major character to die at the end of every season.

If the show skips stabby stabby, the book readers will be spared probably the biggest spoiler ever - how Jon lives - because as now we know, he always comes back. Well, if he never gets stabbed in the show, the book readers get to find out how he doesn't die without the show spoiling that.

Killing Mance, and having Tormund beat Rattleshirt to death, was D&D's way of telling the bookreaders - "NO GLAMOURING. We'er killing this plot, and all would-be plots (Jon/Mance glamour theory.)

If Jon was going to warg into Ghost, we'd know Jon's a warg by now. Although....... if stabby stabby happens, and as Jon falls his eyes roll white, that would indeed break the internet.

I have hope that LS will break the internet.

I personally, would like Mel to be the one who stops Olly from Caesaring Jon, and no one ever utters the words, "For The Watch" because that would be completely out of place at this point after Hardhome.

If Thenns can learn to get past their hate, no reason the Night's Watch can't, especially because HOLYFUCKINGSHITARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEADBEHINDYOU!!!

Jon being at Hardhome and HFSAOTFDBY changes everything. For me, anyway.

:unsure:

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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