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[Book Spoilers] EP508 Discussion

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@ ShadowKitteh


I can't tell if it's your avatar or your posts I find to be the most adorable!


Keep posting! :cheers:

Edited by roxWolfox 🍁

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You're more than welcome to check my post history and see all of the criticisms I've made toward the show. It's not all positivity. In this case, Olly as Jon's squire makes sense. What I don't like is how obvious it is Olly is going to do something dramatic. I wouldn't be surprised if Jon went down cursing Olly's "sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

Sorry if it seemed I implied otherwise, but I just meant all inconsistencies can potentially be explained away by making up the story ourselves, not that you, specifically, had done so.

Edited by Facebookless Man

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I agree with everything except, Jon went to Crasters to kill or capture the mutineers, not search for Bran.

I said this earlier, but I think it would be awesome for the show to skip stabby stabby altogether, since it makes little sense now, and visually, it will be death-overkill, along the lines of things that break the internet and people like to go crazy over (too much rape/boobs/vagina/Olly, etc) due to Hardhome, the Pit, Shireen(threat or real), Battle of Winterfell, and the thousands more that will likely die in the next two hours (Loras? Myrcella? Tommen? Jorah? Balon Greyjoy (finally)? We know Yara is showing up.)

If they're going to have the Pink Letter be the catalyst for Jon to leave, (even though at this point I can't imagine anything making Jon leave short of abandoning the Wall, and getting everyone as far south as south goes), that would be the only reason brothers other than Olly would turn on Jon now. Otherwise, it will most likely be just Olly, Jon not even discussing leaving, because, "Wildlings killed my Mum and Dad."

I really feel there will be no Pink Letter. Think about it, the way they've so carefully orchestrated Jon's overall arc from bastard boy wanting to come with his uncle ranging north of the Wall, to attempting desertion to join Robb... to being the strong, obvious choice for Lord Commander of The Night's Watch and Savior of the North (ShowJon is light years beyond BookJon at this point because of ShowHardhome ), "I will live and die at my post." If the show did anything to suddenly break that - they'd have to do it extremely carefully - and even then, I don't know if it would be possible for it to not look insane. I just can't see Jon saying, "Oh noes! I've got to go save my half-sister from her lawful husband who happens to legally rape her every night. Fuck my vows and that saving the world and mankind shit." Even if those aren't the exact words, they'll mean the same.

It also makes Jon Snow suddenly an imbicile, and leaves the audience feeling like one. Jon must save the world. Because if he doesn't, Sansa and everyone else everywhere, including Jon, will be stone cold dead. :eek:

I think even many of the unsullied feel that the foreshadowing of Olly attempting to hurt Jon is over the top at this point. The show also runs the risk of the audience getting to the point of expecting a major character to die at the end of every season.

If the show skips stabby stabby, the book readers will be spared probably the biggest spoiler ever - how Jon lives - because as now we know, he always comes back. Well, if he never gets stabbed in the show, the book readers get to find out how he doesn't die without the show spoiling that.

Killing Mance, and having Tormund beat Rattleshirt to death, was D&D's way of telling the bookreaders - "NO GLAMOURING. We'er killing this plot, and all would-be plots (Jon/Mance glamour theory.)

If Jon was going to warg into Ghost, we'd know Jon's a warg by now. Although....... if stabby stabby happens, and as Jon falls his eyes roll white, that would indeed break the internet.

I have hope that LS will break the internet.

I personally, would like Mel to be the one who stops Olly from Caesaring Jon, and no one ever utters the words, "For The Watch" because that would be completely out of place at this point after Hardhome.

If Thenns can learn to get past their hate, no reason the Night's Watch can't, especially because HOLYFUCKINGSHITARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEADBEHINDYOU!!!

Jon being at Hardhome and HFSAOTFDBY changes everything. For me, anyway.

:unsure:

That makes soooo much sense. I wish it would happen that way, but I'm prepared for disappointment. *sigh*

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Those saying Hardhome makes it so that Jon can't even consider leaving the wall to march on Winterfell because Army of the Dead are missing a very important point. If the Pink Letter arrives and Jon believes Stannis is dead, what choice does he have but to march on Winterfell. Can he really leave an enemy like the Boltons at his rear while trying to fend off the Walkers? Or will he do what military commanders often do when between a rock and a hard place, and roll the hard six, take the big gamble because not doing so is far worse. Marching on Winterfell is bad, but at least the Wall still stands and there is a chance of him returning with the united North backing him before the Walkers attack the Wall. Leaving the Boltons in place while fighting the Walkers seems like an even worse risk to take.


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Why does the show needs to explicitly state that Olly is now in the Night Watch? What does him being a Steward, knowing the vows, and being at the election to vote for LC indicate? Honestly some people love to state the better intellect of people who ready the books yet when complain because a manner is not explicitly stated. With all the complaints of Olly being shown you now want a scene of him taking his vows?

The show does not show Olly having taken the NW vow. He is a child whose parents died only a year ago.

Olly could stab Jon in revenge for letting the wildings in but he hasn't been with the NW long enough to be stabbing him For the Watch. He hasn't been with the NW long enough and the show hasn't established he is even a member.

Jon has to be stabbed by the older NW members who joined the watch before him.

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I agree with everything except, Jon went to Crasters to kill or capture the mutineers, not search for Bran.

I said this earlier, but I think it would be awesome for the show to skip stabby stabby altogether, since it makes little sense now, and visually, it will be death-overkill, along the lines of things that break the internet and people like to go crazy over (too much rape/boobs/vagina/Olly, etc) due to Hardhome, the Pit, Shireen(threat or real), Battle of Winterfell, and the thousands more that will likely die in the next two hours (Loras? Myrcella? Tommen? Jorah? Balon Greyjoy (finally)? We know Yara is showing up.)

If they're going to have the Pink Letter be the catalyst for Jon to leave, (even though at this point I can't imagine anything making Jon leave short of abandoning the Wall, and getting everyone as far south as south goes), that would be the only reason brothers other than Olly would turn on Jon now. Otherwise, it will most likely be just Olly, Jon not even discussing leaving, because, "Wildlings killed my Mum and Dad."

...

It also makes Jon Snow suddenly an imbicile, and leaves the audience feeling like one. Jon must save the world. Because if he doesn't, Sansa and everyone else everywhere, including Jon, will be stone cold dead. :eek:

I think even many of the unsullied feel that the foreshadowing of Olly attempting to hurt Jon is over the top at this point. The show also runs the risk of the audience getting to the point of expecting a major character to die at the end of every season.

...

Killing Mance, and having Tormund beat Rattleshirt to death, was D&D's way of telling the bookreaders - "NO GLAMOURING. We'er killing this plot, and all would-be plots (Jon/Mance glamour theory.)

If Jon was going to warg into Ghost, we'd know Jon's a warg by now. Although....... if stabby stabby happens, and as Jon falls his eyes roll white, that would indeed break the internet.

I agree that the showrunners have painted themselves into a corner here. But I don't think they can skip the stabby-stabby. I think it is central to the plot arc of the books.

Jon swore an oath to the NW and we just saw Stannis offer WinterFell to Jon if he gives up his vows. "I shall live and die at my post." So Jon has to die. I also strongly suspect that in the books it is part of some magical reveal.

I agree on the glamouring and the warging part. The show is ultra-low magic. And that is probably a good choice because killing off characters and bringing them back as undead ruins one of the chief attractions of the show, that everyone is at risk.

The only firm conclusion that can be made is that D&D are being deliberately obscure. They have made absolute statements before, remember the thing about no prophecies? They broke that rule in the first scene of this season. They may break another of their rules in the last.

They showed Tyrion about to drown, then they showed him rescued. Will they do the same with Jon or are they doing that because they don't want to overshadow the end-of-season cliffhanger.

D&D know that the bookreaders will be looking for all sorts of clues. I think Olly is a diversion. But even though he has reason to be angry at Jon, Jon is still the man who gave Olly a home and a life after his parents were killed.

I still think the most likely choice for D&D is to leave the show at the exact same point as the books. Then if GRRM does pull a book 6 out of his hat before the launch of season 6 it would be an instant best seller and boost the show as well.

But still, Deus ex machina....

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Final (?) Thought:

- Jon knows how to kill Wights. Why didn't he and his men break out fire?

I've seen quite a few people ask this and it surprised me. I thought it was obvious why - fire also kills/harms people. It's one thing to toss fire at a single wight across the room from you. Quite another to try to flame hundreds (thousands?) of wights running rampage everywhere. For any wight they hit with fire they are just as likely to also light up one of their own. Not to mention that wooden (and thus burnable) gate that is the only thing holding back the wights at first. Edited by Stonehearted Snake

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The show does not show Olly having taken the NW vow. He is a child whose parents died only a year ago.

Olly could stab Jon in revenge for letting the wildings in but he hasn't been with the NW long enough to be stabbing him For the Watch. He hasn't been with the NW long enough and the show hasn't established he is even a member.

Jon has to be stabbed by the older NW members who joined the watch before him.

I do not need to see Olly take his vow to know that he is in the NW. That he is orphan and Jon's Steward is alright for me. I think Olly been at the Wall more episodes wise than Jon and Sam before they show them taking the vow. It is not some plot hole or not caring to reasonable conclude he is now a Brother of the Night's Watch.

Some posters have decided now it is and it is in the service to criticize an event that have not taken place yet on the show.

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Those saying Hardhome makes it so that Jon can't even consider leaving the wall to march on Winterfell because Army of the Dead are missing a very important point. If the Pink Letter arrives and Jon believes Stannis is dead, what choice does he have but to march on Winterfell. Can he really leave an enemy like the Boltons at his rear while trying to fend off the Walkers? Or will he do what military commanders often do when between a rock and a hard place, and roll the hard six, take the big gamble because not doing so is far worse. Marching on Winterfell is bad, but at least the Wall still stands and there is a chance of him returning with the united North backing him before the Walkers attack the Wall. Leaving the Boltons in place while fighting the Walkers seems like an even worse risk to take.

In what way are the Boltons any threat to the wall in any form?

Edited by Tyrion's Third Wife

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Well, it is also a good way to defuse the situation with the Wildings that would be at the Wall, give them a purpose as they should be and I think they will be, eternally greatfull for what Jon did to save them. this is going to be very interesting how this goes down.


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In what way are the Boltons any threat to the wall in any form?

what if he gets news of sansa's wedding to ramsey? would that not be reason enough to go save his sister?

he already has a wilding army

so that is what leads to FTW by allister (they have made him a antagonist,to jon,from the start he will 100% take part in it),olly(most likely,but i do see a chance of him WANTING to do it but not go trough) and bowen marsh(they casted him.i see no other reason why else)

P.S.please go easy on me.new to posting here,tough ive lurked for the past year

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what if he gets news of sansa's wedding to ramsey? would that not be reason enough to go save his sister?

he already has a wilding army

so that is what leads to FTW by allister (they have made him a antagonist,to jon,from the start he will 100% take part in it),olly(most likely,but i do see a chance of him WANTING to do it but not go trough) and bowen marsh(they casted him.i see no other reason why else)

P.S.please go easy on me.new to posting here,tough ive lurked for the past year

Welcome to the boards, mihnea. :cheers: Don't be afraid. Most of us are pretty reasonable here. We remember when we were new and mostly lurked. :D

I'm not sure how the FTW events will come to pass, but I do see Ramsay threatening to attack the Wall and Night's Watch if he returns from his mission and Sansa (and Reek) are missing from Winterfell. He is that crazy.

As for Jon having an army of Free Folk, I suppose one can look back at the 'King Crow' title being tossed around as a form of foreshadowing; but would they agree to stomp through enemy territory all the way down to Winterfell just to rescue Sansa or save the King that burnt Mance? It took Mance 20 years to bring them together, in which time he earned their respect and loyalty. They aren't the most forgiving of folk.

The NW brothers are the wild cards here.

As it is, I'm already prepared to hate the NW. And I guess I should make a note to buy a box of tissues for my non-bookreading friends.

Edited by roxWolfox 🍁

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what if he gets news of sansa's wedding to ramsey? would that not be reason enough to go save his sister?

he already has a wilding army

so that is what leads to FTW by allister (they have made him a antagonist,to jon,from the start he will 100% take part in it),olly(most likely,but i do see a chance of him WANTING to do it but not go trough) and bowen marsh(they casted him.i see no other reason why else)

P.S.please go easy on me.new to posting here,tough ive lurked for the past year

:D

I think you're not allowing yourself to let go of BookJon. Go rewatch the last episode again. The story has completely changed now, because we all know about Hardhome and the Army of the Dead. BookJon, and pretty much everyone else, know nothing about BookHardhome, since in the book, there's not a lot to know.

ShowJon knows everything about Hardhome, because he was there, and so were thousands of others.

I seem to remember something, how does it go....... "The needs of the many, outweight the needs of the few."

Sansa Bolton ≠ The WW & the ARMY OF THE DEAD that is about to destroy the world and every living thing in it, in any way, shape, or form.

Oui?

How do you give Sansa's current predicament equal weight to what's coming? "Death martches on the Wall." It's almost laughable if it wasn't so unimaginable.

If Jon doesn't save the world from the WW and the ARMYOFTHEFUCKINGDEAD, Sansa will not need rescuing, nor will anyone else.... because, oh sorry, you're all dead.

At this point, I don't see how they allow him to have that big of an intelligence lapse in order to go after Sansa. Makes no sense whatsoever. We'd also need someone like Sansa herself to deliver the never-ending monologue catching Jon up on what's happened to her since the 2nd episode of season 1, because how/why would he know any of that? (Betrothed to Joffrey, tortured by Joffrey, jilted by Joffrey, betrothed to Loras, betrothed to Tyrion, married to Tyrion, framed for regicide and kidnapped by Littlefinger, who then arranged her marriage to the Boltons.) There's barely enough time in the next two hours to do that, much less everything else they've got to squeeze in - Dany's marriage (I'm assuming we'll see something - or not), the Pit - and all of THAT, Cersei, Dorne, Stannis, Braavos - and the Wall. There's a LOT to squeeze into two hours.

Yes, the Boltons helped murder his family, but the Night's Watch doesn't get involved in the petty political squabbles of the 7 Kingdoms, nor do they take sides, and Jon is LC now. It doesn't matter that Sansa is family. He's got way more important things to worry about than one of his half-sisters, who is, at the moment, farther away from and safer from what is about to descend on the Wall.

Jon's not a child anymore. He cannot shirk his duties of being LC to go rescue a family member, that really isn't in any mortal danger at the moment when the entire world is about to collapse if the AOTFD get past the Wall.

In the book, at this point, Jon hasn't been to Hardhome, and no one really knows what's happened there. There certainly isn't any AOTFD who's about to catch up with them, and end ALL life as they know it (unless we just don't know that yet.) BookJon hasn't lived through ShowHardhome. Anyone who survived that just gained two centuries worth of maturity and experience.

ShowJon is years ahead in maturity and intelligence than BookJon. If D&D can make the things that BookJon does make sense for ShowJon to do, then it will be as close to the books as they can get. I just don't see how they do that now, after Hardhome.

If Jon makes any other choice than to save the world - at this point AFTER SHOW HARDHOME and the AOTFD it's not going to make any sense, and it will make him look as if he's suddenly has brain damage, and gets distracted easily - SQUIRREL!

The next thing he needs to do is get Stannis and the Boltons to wake up to what's coming, and HELP.

They may pull it off..... I just can't see how. Which makes it sooooo much fun!

EDIT: I forgot to say, yes, they've made Alliser into a giant dick, but he's still an experienced Brother of the Night's Watch. I think they've given Olly more than enough scenes to establish him for stabby stabby because, "The Wildlings killed my mom & dad." No pink letter/Sansa drama needed.

If there's no Pink Letter, it also opens Theon to be a bigger hero.

Edited by ShadowKitteh

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When Jon killed the White Walker, it's Ice blade fell to the ground. He should have took it as a trophy to prove that he killed a White Walker and maybe it could have been used against other White Walkers. Maybe, they can be harmed by their own weapons? Although, I understand the situation was not suitable for strategic thoughts. Amongst the panic, he probably never even considered the Walkers weapon lying there.

Edited by ~DarkHorse~

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When Jon killed the White Walker, it's Ice blade fell to the ground. He should have took it as a trophy to prove that he killed a White Walker and maybe it could have been used against other White Walkers. Maybe, they can be harmed by their own weapons? Although, I understand the situation was not suitable for strategic thoughts. Amongst the panic, he probably never even considered the Walkers weapon lying there.

That would have been interesting. Jon does take two dead men back to the Wall to see if they come back to life as wights so it would fit with what we know of in the books. Still, he was in a rush like you said. I don't think their weapons would be as effective as Valyrian steel is but I don't think they would shatter like common steel would.

Basically it would be like common steel versus common steel.

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Agreed. I just re-watched all the episodes of season so far and basically you see Olly at Castle Black more than anyone else. Even when the camera pans for an expected Jon reaction, we are looking at the back of Jon's head to see Olly's facial expression of confusion or disapproval. The only takeaway since he just showed up at the end of last season in time to kill Ygritte is that Olly is going to make a very important, probably bad decision and they really wanted to the audience to know his name and his face since there hasn't been enough time to actually endear him as a character.

As for Jon, I have to wonder if the letter is going to be a person instead, someone can give him details about certain events happening in Winterfell. It would have to be pretty graphic to get Jon to leave his post after the Night's King stare down.

First of all, I don't see the big FTW moment happening this season. I don't think it's been set up enough, Jon hasn't been LC long enough, we have no sense of his vision and only an idea of his intentions.

Second, while the show has been over the top obvious with where the Olly thing is going, it doesn't really make sense that a conspiracy of NW brothers would have a child do their dirty work, presumably in a sneaky fashion. They have set Thorne up as Jon's antagonist, rather than Bowen Marsh (someone said his character had been cast? Has he been in actual episodes? I don't think I've noticed) but they've also presented him as brave and reasonably honorable. It's not consistent with his character to put a child up to something like that. I wouldn't think they would just dispense with the whole conspiracy aspect of it.

Maybe all we get with Olly is a mini-attack that foreshadows the larger event, which I feel pretty certain will happen next season, after Jon starts giving land to the wildlings and getting more intertwined with Stannis. We've hardly even had any Jon and Mel back and forth.

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Learned something new watching the YouTube of new locations/new characters. HBO only got permission to shoot in the "Dorne Water Gardens" location for 1 week. That probably has a lot to do with why they have reduced a lot of Dorne this season. Interesting. They apparently (and possibly) changed the story to get the great location they used for shooting.


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In that YouTube Weiss says the sand snakes are 3 of Oberyn's 8 daughters, but Nym says she is the middle child between Obara and Tyene


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