[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

[Wouter]

15 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

Not me. I'm just glad we get progress in the story again. I prefer the books, but I'm more than ready to get some answers.

The books, when they come, will remain nice to read. Many plotlines will be different in the books, some are omitted entirely by the show. The book characters are also drawn in greater detail. All this will make it worth to read them even if you know the major lines of how the story continues.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

46 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

I'm happy to get more clues since I think that the story on the show is still going to end in the same basic place. (Same deaths, same person on the Iron Throne, same outcome regarding the battle with the Others, etc.) I'm hoping that this season answers RLJ and AJT once and for all so that we can focus on other theories as readers. 

More than anything I think I'm excited to see Tyrion with the dragons and Bran's various visions. I hope that there's a surprise flashback in there that people are going to find genuinely shocking. RLJ isn't necessarily going to be crazy shocking for a lot of viewers but AJT has the potential to make show only fans go 'Wait, whaaaat????' and I really look forward to seeing that happen. 

My main concern is that people will feel overwhelmed by the info since one of the common complaints are that there are "too many secret Targaryens". I hope that the info is released in a way so that audiences see the link between Tyrion, Jon, and Dany. 

[lojzelote]

Has anybody watched this video?

I have always been skeptical if the show would bother with Tyrion Targaryen even if it was a thing in the books. Now though I have found this, and I find the idea they will reveal it much more likely. The part with the Red Priestess gazing at Tyrion is really poignant, imo.

[Darksky]

19 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

 

19 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

I think we will have to wait at least an extra week for that (episode 2), going by the spoilers and reports. I very much doubt they'll resolve the Jon Snow issue in the first episode, which had had a red carpet premiere 2 weeks before the season (risk of the plot twist leaking).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 16-4-2016 at 10:01 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

Yes  

[Consigliere]

On 2016/04/16 at 10:01 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

Not me. I'd have preferred to read about it first but it has been long enough.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 16. 4. 2016 at 10:01 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

I guess we'll have to wait a bit longer for this. I can't see how they can resolve it in just one episode, so episode 2 perhaps? I heard that this episode will set up thing for powerful sorcery but what it means? 

I would prefer to read about it first but we need answers, and finally put this to rest. I blame Martin for this...since he had his chance to reveal it but his pace of wriiting is so slow. We can't blame the show for this.

23 hours ago, lojzelote said:

Has anybody watched this video?

I have always been skeptical if the show would bother with Tyrion Targaryen even if it was a thing in the books. Now though I have found this, and I find the idea they will reveal it much more likely. The part with the Red Priestess gazing at Tyrion is really poignant, imo.

The looks from Red Priestess is definitely about his role in the future. I believe since this season it looks like Tyrion will visit dragons in the crypt/dungeon, he'll let them go and not end up like Quentyn. It looks more and more like he'll connect with one of them and you need right dreop of Targayren blood for this. I've never been a fan of this but I'll accept it. His relationship with Tywin would be for me a bit tained by this but hell if this is George's plan all along. Let's do this.

[UnmaskedLurker]

On 4/16/2016 at 2:33 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I bet the new red priestess has a dragonbinder horn or something, will take Rhaegal and will torment Dany's progression back to Westeros until she finally dies and Jon gets Rhaegal. That's my guess

I am a little surprised, SS, that you contemplate that a dragon horn can allow someone without Targ blood to bond with a dragon. Personally, I highly doubt that a horn can allow someone without Targ blood to bond with a dragon. The one time such a horn has been blown in the books -- it seemed to have some effect on the people and certainly caused the death of the person blowing the horn -- but what evidence is there that is can allow its "owner" to bond with a dragon?

And if such a horn could do such a thing, there would have been some talk about it in Targ lore -- and one of the "side books" would have made some reference to it having happened. With there being no reports of anyone in Valyria without Dragonlord blood ever having bonded with a dragon, I tend to doubt it will happen now. I believe Dany made a statement once that horns were used to "better control" the dragons -- but that is quite different from using a horn actually to bond with a dragon.

As to how Rhaegal gets over to Westeros - I am not sure, but he might just take off and disappear -- but follow the other two dragons from a distance until Rhaegal gets "drawn" to Jon and they bond. But, of course, there are different possibilities -- and the scenario likely will be different in the books because the books have DoD 2.0 with fAegon, whereas that sub-plot has been eliminated from the show.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

On 4/17/2016 at 4:44 PM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Yes  

Of course I am happy to find out what happens, It's just weird, I mean this has never happened in the history of entertainment before.

On 4/17/2016 at 4:53 PM, Consigliere said:

Not me. I'd have preferred to read about it first but it has been long enough.

It has been, yes.

On 4/17/2016 at 5:46 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

I guess we'll have to wait a bit longer for this. I can't see how they can resolve it in just one episode, so episode 2 perhaps? I heard that this episoe will set up thing for powerful sorcerey but what it means? 

I would prefer to read about it first but we need answers, and finally put this to rest. I blame Martin for this...since he had his chance to reveal it but his pace of wriiting is so slow. We can't blame the show for this.

The looks from Red Priestess is definitely about his role in the future. I believe since this season it looks like Tyrion will visit dragons in the crypt/dungeon, he'll let them go and not end up like Quentyn. It looks more and more like he'll connect with one of them and you need right dreop of Targayren blood for this. I've never been a fan of this but I'll accept it. His relationship with Tywin would be for me a bit tained by this but hell if this is George's plan all along. Let's do this.

The TV guide description says "The fate of the 998th Lord Commander is determined".  I think he'll be awake by the end of the episode.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

On 4/18/2016 at 10:05 AM, UnmaskedLurker said:

I am a little surprised, SS, that you contemplate that a dragon horn can allow someone without Targ blood to bond with a dragon. Personally, I highly doubt that a horn can allow someone without Targ blood to bond with a dragon. The one time such a horn has been blown in the books -- it seemed to have some effect on the people and certainly caused the death of the person blowing the horn -- but what evidence is there that is can allow its "owner" to bond with a dragon?

And if such a horn could do such a thing, there would have been some talk about it in Targ lore -- and one of the "side books" would have made some reference to it having happened. With there being no reports of anyone in Valyria without Dragonlord blood ever having bonded with a dragon, I tend to doubt it will happen now. I believe Dany made a statement once that horns were used to "better control" the dragons -- but that is quite different from using a horn actually to bond with a dragon.

As to how Rhaegal gets over to Westeros - I am not sure, but he might just take off and disappear -- but follow the other two dragons from a distance until Rhaegal gets "drawn" to Jon and they bond. But, of course, there are different possibilities -- and the scenario likely will be different in the books because the books have DoD 2.0 with fAegon, whereas that sub-plot has been eliminated from the show.

We must disagree on this.  I think the horn is going to throw a big wrench in Dany's plans.  in the book I think Vic will take a dragon with it for a short time, who knows if there will even be one on the show (that was just my guess). 

 

But I think the whole point of the horn is "you can get a dragon without bloodmagic or bonding due to Dragonlord blood"......PLUS and this is a big one for me, the horn is on the cover of Winds of Winter, meaning (IMO) it is there to do some damage, especially since it accompanies the book with the most ominous title so far.

[Mr Smith]

On 4/16/2016 at 6:01 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

I feel ya, but I've sort of made my peace with it now (partly because I think in the books Shireen is involved in Jon's resurrection, which she obviously can't be in the show). Honestly my excitement to find out what happens has gradually eclipsed my desire to have the book first as the season has got closer and closer.

[imaginepageant]

On 4/16/2016 at 4:01 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

Definitely conflicted. I'd much rather have the book(s) first, but I'm glad to be getting any progress at this point... but, I also realize that what happens in the show may not happen in the books. I think this is especially true with Jon. I'm convinced he'll spend some time warged into Ghost before being resurrected in TWOW, but this will be cut from the show entirely, so we'll still have to wait a year or more for that part of the story. I believe Sansa and Tyrion's storylines will also continue to veer wildly off course in the show, so who knows what we'll be getting with them in TWOW. It's going to get difficult to keep the "real" story straight in our heads now that we're getting the show version first.

 

12 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

PLUS and this is a big one for me, the horn is on the cover of Winds of Winter, meaning (IMO) it is there to do some damage, especially since it accompanies the book with the most ominous title so far.

I always assumed it was the Horn of Winter on the cover, not Dragonbinder. I mean... Winds of Winter, Horn of Winter... the Others are likely going to be a much larger presence in this book, and the Horn of Winter is tied into all that...

[Consigliere]

53 minutes ago, imaginepageant said:

Definitely conflicted. I'd much rather have the book(s) first, but I'm glad to be getting any progress at this point... but, I also realize that what happens in the show may not happen in the books. I think this is especially true with Jon. I'm convinced he'll spend some time warged into Ghost before being resurrected in TWOW, but this will be cut from the show entirely, so we'll still have to wait a year or more for that part of the story. I believe Sansa and Tyrion's storylines will also continue to veer wildly off course in the show, so who knows what we'll be getting with them in TWOW. It's going to get difficult to keep the "real" story straight in our heads now that we're getting the show version first.

Agree with this. However, I do think that the show will hit the major plot points but the lead up will be very different. For instance, if Jon is resurrected in the show and comes back as essentially himself, not UnJon or whatever, then I expect this to be the end result in the books as well although the manner of his resurrection in the books will likely be completely different. Ditto for Tyrion and the other major characters: the journey will be very different but I expect the ultimate destination to be the same or broadly similar to the outline Martin provided D&D.

[Darksky]

1 hour ago, imaginepageant said:

Definitely conflicted. I'd much rather have the book(s) first, but I'm glad to be getting any progress at this point... but, I also realize that what happens in the show may not happen in the books. I think this is especially true with Jon. I'm convinced he'll spend some time warged into Ghost before being resurrected in TWOW, but this will be cut from the show entirely, so we'll still have to wait a year or more for that part of the story. 

The plot would do without the silly Ghost warging. He gets to keep his self intact from death (only slightly altered from being in Ghost), and then gets back to his body even though it's been stressed out that a warg cannot return if the body's dead. But convenient plotting will make it work for Jon. Of course...

[imaginepageant]

47 minutes ago, Darksky said:

The plot would do without the silly Ghost warging. He gets to keep his self intact from death (only slightly altered from being in Ghost), and then gets back to his body even though it's been stressed out that a warg cannot return if the body's dead. But convenient plotting will make it work for Jon. Of course...

The body wouldn't be dead. It will be resurrected, and Jon's spirit will go back into it. Having never been truly "dead," he'll avoid the downfalls of resurrection that we've seen happen in Beric Dondarrion and Lady Stoneheart. This isn't convenient plotting; warging is something that's been established since the beginning of the series.

And warging isn't "silly." I believe it'll be an important aspect of the end game; it wouldn't have factored so heavily into the story thus far if not. It's obviously been important to Bran already, and will be how Jon survives his death. There's been speculation that Bran or Jon might warg a dragon later on. Arya, who's already subconsciously warging Nymeria through dreams, might eventually use the ability with Nymeria and her wolf pack. And who knows what Rickon and Shaggydog will do once they come back into the story. Warging is the ice magic in the song of ice and fire, and like the fire magic we've seen so far, it will play its part.

[dornishdame]

On 4/16/2016 at 9:01 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So 8 days until we find out what happens to Jon Snow.  I'm so excited (cause it's been 5+ years since he got stabbed), but so upset at the same time that we don't get to read it first.  Is everyone else having these conflicted feelings as well?

Very much so!! While I would take Winds or a new Dunk and Egg story over a new season of the show, I will still be watching - albeit with an equal measure of excitement and dread. 

I think what I will be clinging to is the idea that while something happens in a certain way in the show, it will not necessarily do so in the books - look how far off their book story lines characters such as Sansa are. I am not sure that Season 6 will ultimately spoil us as to the end game, given that there will be at least one more season to come, and given the plot divergences I doubt we will know until we read Winds whether we have actually been spoiled or not. Realistically, I think the post season 6 material will spoil us more for the end game than the season to come. But I figure I can either watch it, take it as a separate canon from the books, and enjoy it as such - or I can avoid the internet, social media and pretty much all civilization until Winds and Dream are out to avoid hearing what happens.  After all, we can hardly ask the couple at the next table in a restaurant, or the people sitting along from us on the bus/train to discuss something else so we don't overhear what happens in the new season, can we? 

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

21 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

We must disagree on this.  I think the horn is going to throw a big wrench in Dany's plans.  in the book I think Vic will take a dragon with it for a short time, who knows if there will even be one on the show (that was just my guess). 

 

But I think the whole point of the horn is "you can get a dragon without bloodmagic or bonding due to Dragonlord blood"......PLUS and this is a big one for me, the horn is on the cover of Winds of Winter, meaning (IMO) it is there to do some damage, especially since it accompanies the book with the most ominous title so far.

I find it impossible to believe that a dumb ass like Victarion is going to be the first player to figure out how to use that dragon horn. No way IMO. I think he's going to be dragon food and we're going to see another example of dragon taming gone wrong even when a person has a tool that makes readers wonder if it's going to work only for it to go spectacularly wrong. In fact, I'm leaning towards the horn falling into Tyrion's hands and that this might end up helping him control Viserion. 

As far as Rhaegal making it to Westeros, I still lean towards the idea that Bran and/or Bloodraven might be able to help. 

[239JMFL34109]

6 minutes ago, Rhaechyll Targaryen said:

I find it impossible to believe that a dumb ass like Victarion is going to be the first player to figure out how to use that dragon horn. No way IMO. I think he's going to be dragon food and we're going to see another example of dragon taming gone wrong even when a person has a tool that makes readers wonder if it's going to work only for it to go spectacularly wrong. In fact, I'm leaning towards the horn falling into Tyrion's hands and that this might end up helping him control Viserion. 

As far as Rhaegal making it to Westeros, I still lean towards the idea that Bran and/or Bloodraven might be able to help. 

There is a whole lot in the books to say victarion is getting played somehow by euron. 

[Lord Friendzone]

22 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Of course I am happy to find out what happens, It's just weird, I mean this has never happened in the history of entertainment before.

It has been, yes.

The TV guide description says "The fate of the 998th Lord Commander is determined".  I think he'll be awake by the end of the episode.

Very vague description.