[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

Yeah, I don't think that the death of a dragon kills AJT. I never believed that it would be three dragons and their riders facing down the The Others and their horde in a final battle. I've always suspected that one of the dragons would die before that. Tyrion could still potentially ride a dragon and DMC lays out a plausible scenario - one that I could see Martin actually doing - with either Jon or Dany as the fallen hero and Tyrion as the unlikely hero. I suspect that Martin, like Tyrion, has a soft spot for "Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things" - AJT would make Tyrion all of those.

 

The more I think about it, the more that makes sense -- that the "reveal" is a surprise to everyone and that Dany dies in battle and Tyrion somehow, by instinct, jumps onto Drogon and "saves the day" (so to speak). Not really predicting such a scenario, but it seems quite plausible under the circumstances. And would go with "bittersweet" (not that there won't be other bittersweet elements to the ending) as Jon and Tyrion would learn they are related but Tyrion would never get to know Dany as a relative (even if they had become close as her Hand or otherwise).

Marriage stuff:

Spoiler

The annulment being secret might not make sense in the books -- but in the show they can come up with some BS like it was being kept secret until Rhaegar and Lyanna were ready to announce their relationship, but after they died, the maesters decided to keep it a secret as revealing it would not serve any purpose after the deaths of all relevant parties. Or any other "throw away" explanation would be easier than introducing Targ history of bigamy -- and make the audience not be repulsed by it (which the show cares about much more than GRRM).

 

[Consigliere]

14 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Marriage stuff:

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The annulment being secret might not make sense in the books -- but in the show they can come up with some BS like it was being kept secret until Rhaegar and Lyanna were ready to announce their relationship, but after they died, the maesters decided to keep it a secret as revealing it would not serve any purpose after the deaths of all relevant parties. Or any other "throw away" explanation would be easier than introducing Targ history of bigamy -- and make the audience not be repulsed by it (which the show cares about much more than GRRM).

 

 

I don't think that the show runners particularly care about not repulsing the audience - recall the shows version of Jaime and Cersei in the sept and a host of other scenes as well. What they care about is generating hype. I suspect that RLJ will be explicitly revealed to the viewers in close proximity (perhaps even the same episode) that Jon and Dany do the nasty. That is the sort of "shocking moment" that D&D love.

[UnmaskedLurker]

17 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

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I don't think that the show runners particularly care about not repulsing the audience - recall the shows version of Jaime and Cersei in the sept and a host of other scenes as well. What they care about is generating hype. I suspect that RLJ will be explicitly revealed to the viewers in close proximity (perhaps even the same episode) that Jon and Dany do the nasty. That is the sort of "shocking moment" that D&D love.

Spoiler

I think you are missing my point. It is not about being repulsed. The producers love to get the audience repulsed -- but only against characters the producers want the audience to feel revulsion against -- Ramsay and Jaime (although that choice was quite odd, I think). The scene you suggest will create shock -- but not disgust toward Jon and Dany -- i.e., the audience won't like them less. Making Rhaegar a bigamist would affect how people view Rhaegar and Jon -- and that is something the producers care about.

 

[Consigliere]

1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

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I think you are missing my point. It is not about being repulsed. The producers love to get the audience repulsed -- but only against characters the producers want the audience to feel revulsion against -- Ramsay and Jaime (although that choice was quite odd, I think). The scene you suggest will create shock -- but not disgust toward Jon and Dany -- i.e., the audience won't like them less. Making Rhaegar a bigamist would affect how people view Rhaegar and Jon -- and that is something the producers care about.

 

Here is where we disagree then. I don't think that show only people care nearly as much about Rhaegar as some book readers do. Character-wise, compared to the books, Rhaegar is a virtual non-entity on the show. He is only a name that has been dropped a handful of times over the course of six seasons. When HBO released that info-graphic, more than a few people were asking "who's Rhaegar?". Finding out that Jon's father was a bigamist would not negatively affect how the audience views Jon, imo. Afterall Dany, Myrcella and Tommen being the products of sibling incest has not resulted in widespread audience revulsion towards them so I don't see why bigamy would lead to that result for either Jon or Rhaegar.

[RumHam]

51 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

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I think you are missing my point. It is not about being repulsed. The producers love to get the audience repulsed -- but only against characters the producers want the audience to feel revulsion against -- Ramsay and Jaime (although that choice was quite odd, I think). The scene you suggest will create shock -- but not disgust toward Jon and Dany -- i.e., the audience won't like them less. Making Rhaegar a bigamist would affect how people view Rhaegar and Jon -- and that is something the producers care about.

 

Welcome back!

I have to agree with Consigliere, I can't imagine many Game of Thrones viewers being too upset with polygamy. Sort of like how in-universe bastardy is a stain but I really doubt any viewers actually view Jon's supposed bastardy as a mark against him.

 If anything I think polygamy (especially with Elia's consent) comes off as better than ditching your old wife because you met someone new. Anyway I really don't think anyone would hold it against Jon if his father was a bigamist.

[UnmaskedLurker]

5 hours ago, RumHam said:

Welcome back!

 

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I have to agree with Consigliere, I can't imagine many Game of Thrones viewers being too upset with polygamy. Sort of like how in-universe bastardy is a stain but I really doubt any viewers actually view Jon's supposed bastardy as a mark against him.

 If anything I think polygamy (especially with Elia's consent) comes off as better than ditching your old wife because you met someone new. Anyway I really don't think anyone would hold it against Jon if his father was a bigamist.

 

Thanks. I needed the break.

Spoiler

You might agree with Consigliere but I think the leaks are pretty accurate so the producers apparently agree with me. But on reflection I will back away from the audience reaction issue. I tend to think it maybe was just simpler. They knew the books made an issue of Targ polygamy and maybe just thought it was too complicated. I suspect they also thought it would make Sam's investigative skills more central to the reveal.

 

[RumHam]

13 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Thanks. I needed the break.

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You might agree with Consigliere but I think the leaks are pretty accurate so the producers apparently agree with me. But on reflection I will back away from the audience reaction issue. I tend to think it maybe was just simpler. They knew the books made an issue of Targ polygamy and maybe just thought it was too complicated. I suspect they also thought it would make Sam's investigative skills more central to the reveal.

 

I'm not sure what you mean with your first spoilered sentence. Though I haven't read the leaks thoroughly just a synopsis of them. I can't imagine anything leaking that would confirm the producers agree with you that viewers would hold Rhaegar's bigamy against him or Jon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

 

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I'm not sure what you mean with your first spoilered sentence. Though I haven't read the leaks thoroughly just a synopsis of them. I can't imagine anything leaking that would confirm the producers agree with you that viewers would hold Rhaegar's bigamy against him or Jon.

 

Sorry for any confusion -- clarification in spoiler box:

Spoiler

 

It was more or less a joke (a bad one, obviously). I simply meant that the leaks indicate that the producers decided to have Rhaegar and Elia's marriage annulled rather than have Rhaegar as a bigamist. I was joking that they must have made that choice because they agreed with me. I was not really being serious (should have included an "lol" or something equivalent to clarify).

As I tried to explain in the rest of my post was that I really suspect that the producers made the choice because in the books Targ polygamy is already set up, and after the reveal there is space to explore the implications of that history and Rheagar's choice. In the show, that would be just too complicated to get into, so annulment was an easier route -- and it seemed to have the side benefit of giving Sam more to "detect" in his investigation. But of course, I have no idea why the producers made the choice they did -- but it seems pretty likely that the leaks are accurate and Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia on the show (even thought I doubt it will happen that way in the books -- and I think the producers know the books will be different on that point).

 

P.S. I really hate communicating via spoiler boxes.

[RumHam]

41 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Sorry for any confusion -- clarification in spoiler box:

  Hide contents

 

It was more or less a joke (a bad one, obviously). I simply meant that the leaks indicate that the producers decided to have Rhaegar and Elia's marriage annulled rather than have Rhaegar as a bigamist. I was joking that they must have made that choice because they agreed with me. I was not really being serious (should have included an "lol" or something equivalent to clarify).

As I tried to explain in the rest of my post was that I really suspect that the producers made the choice because in the books Targ polygamy is already set up, and after the reveal there is space to explore the implications of that history and Rheagar's choice. In the show, that would be just too complicated to get into, so annulment was an easier route -- and it seemed to have the side benefit of giving Sam more to "detect" in his investigation. But of course, I have no idea why the producers made the choice they did -- but it seems pretty likely that the leaks are accurate and Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia on the show (even thought I doubt it will happen that way in the books -- and I think the producers know the books will be different on that point).

 

P.S. I really hate communicating via spoiler boxes.

Oh, I get it now. Don't mind me I've been exhausted lately. And yeah I hate spoiler boxes too. 

[lojzelote]

Well, I'm of two minds regarding AJT. I pretty much jumped on the bandwagon, but the show threw me into doubt. I really do believe there should be strong hints if this theory is right.

There's also a possibility that Tyrion does not have Targaryen ancestry, but at some point will be persuaded to believe he does, and this belief will lead to... something, though I am not sure what that should be. In ADwD there is a passage where he remembers that as a child he wished he had been a hidden Targaryen princeling, and I've always thought that if AJT is true, this is a bit too much of an obvious clue, and it points more towards his future delusion and wishful thinking, rather than his true heritage. But maybe I'm just paranoid.

Another possibilty is that D&D belong among the majority of readers who hate the idea of AJT and decided to leave it out. Although I'm not overly fond of this option, as it goes against their words that major plot points will be the same. OTOH, it may be that Tyrion as a dragonrider is not that important for the plot; in the original draft, there had been only one dragon, and it bonded to Dany. Seeing as in the show Rhaegal and Viserion are perfectly willing to take Drogon's lead, it may turn out that their role won't be that prominent.

Dany may change her mind in regards to Rhaegal needing a rider if the Viserion fiasco is true, but that's not certain.

As for RLJ, I think that the leaks make Rhaegar and Lyanna look worse, not better. He sounds like that kingly swine Henry VIII and his like.

An annulment would throw legitimacy of his children by Elia into doubt, since it would mean their marriage was never real. In some historical cases, children of these unions remained legitimate, because they were proclaimed to be begotten in good faith, but these children were usually daughters. Daughters were usually considered not so important, and their fathers were leaving their mothers because they wanted a male heir.

But, Prince Aegon would have been Rhaegar's heir, and Rhaegar throwing Elia away this way would weaken his position and could effectively lead to his being bastardized and disinherited. Which leads me to the question on what grounds Rhaegar could have annuled his marriage to Elia. Elia gave him a son (and also a daughter), therefore he can't discard her for her inability to give him an heir. It's all hot awful mess.

Anyway, the effect of an annulment is a thing many show watchers should be familiar with, since Henry VIII of England and his six wives are notorious. Rhaegar would be effectively putting Elia and her children into position of Queen Catherine and Princess Mary, not to mention that naming Lyanna's son Aegon is just rude and clearly replacing Elia's Aegon.

[Consigliere]

On 2016/12/30 at 2:21 PM, lojzelote said:

As for RLJ, I think that the leaks make Rhaegar and Lyanna look worse, not better. He sounds like that kingly swine Henry VIII and his like.

  Reveal hidden contents

An annulment would throw legitimacy of his children by Elia into doubt, since it would mean their marriage was never real. In some historical cases, children of these unions remained legitimate, because they were proclaimed to be begotten in good faith, but these children were usually daughters. Daughters were usually considered not so important, and their fathers were leaving their mothers because they wanted a male heir.

But, Prince Aegon would have been Rhaegar's heir, and Rhaegar throwing Elia away this way would weaken his position and could effectively lead to his being bastardized and disinherited. Which leads me to the question on what grounds Rhaegar could have annuled his marriage to Elia. Elia gave him a son (and also a daughter), therefore he can't discard her for her inability to give him an heir. It's all hot awful mess.

Anyway, the effect of an annulment is a thing many show watchers should be familiar with, since Henry VIII of England and his six wives are notorious. Rhaegar would be effectively putting Elia and her children into position of Queen Catherine and Princess Mary, not to mention that naming Lyanna's son Aegon is just rude and clearly replacing Elia's Aegon.

 

I don't think this is how it will play out in the books. As UL mentioned, an annulment is just a much easier solution for your average viewer to wrap their heads around. Since Aegon has been cut, the legitimacy of Rhaegar's children with Elia post annulment is not an issue in the show and will not even be brought up.

As to Rhaegar and Lyanna: I wouldn't mind if the books cast their relationship (and characters) in a more negative light. Rhaegar was married and Lyanna betrothed so portraying their running off together as some great, totally justified love is too "Disney" for my liking.

Concerning AJT: I'm sticking to my guns. If there is no reveal in the show then the theory is bunk. I see no reason to doubt D&D's words that they are working towards the ending that Martin told them and I don't see Martin making Tyrion the son of Aerys unless it is of significant importance to the plot. There is more wiggle room when it comes to secondary and tertiary characters but as far as the major characters go, I expect them to end in the same place in the show as in the books.

[lojzelote]

I don't mind negative spins either, but

this thing with marriage gives me the vibe of "oh no, that wasn't adultery; they did the proper thing". Which is BS. They're not trying to give R&L a darker spin, they're trying to whitewash it. Or that's what I'd bet they're doing to make it as conventional as they can, although it defies all logic (as usual, ugh). I'd like to give them benefit of the doubt, but I don't believe they give a fig about unfortunate implications of Rhaegar bannishing his lawful wife and mother of his children in favor of a younger model. I'd like to be pleasantly surprised, though.

But, I agree this won't happen in the books, because there's simply no way that Rhaegar could have set Elia aside secretly. His marriage was a matter of state. A crown prince can't set aside a wife or marry another as he chooses. He's not free to make this kind of decisions without the king's permission, at least if he wants his children to have claim to the throne.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 21. 12. 2016 at 0:48 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, that sounds weird, especially considering he is, by far,  the character with more screentime in GOT from all the 191.

I don't subscribe the idea of him being a Targaryen, but I think they are saving his determining role for Season 8.

Tyrion will be important during the war as much ass after the war. Yes, I think he'll live. Good Hand of the KIng or Queen is needed and especially in times after white walkers. His skills, leadership and qualities will be needed. But him being  Targ would have to serve the story, like with Jon being a dragonrider most likely and of course bonding with Dany Their relationship.

 

On 21. 12. 2016 at 2:37 PM, Consigliere said:

If the show never reveals AJT then I will consider the theory to be debunked. I do not believe that the show would simply cut out this reveal if the theory were actually true. Like RLJ, AJT if true, should be having an important impact on both character and plot so a lack of reveal would, to me, confirm that the theory was never true in the first place.

Concerning leaks regarding RLJ:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Okay, so one leak says that Jon was "legitimized at birth" and another says that Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was annulled. What plot relevance would annulling his marriage serve if he never married Lyanna anyway? I think it makes much more sense that if Rhaegar had his marriage annulled, he went on to marry Lyanna and the leak should actually read "legitimate" rather than "legitimized" at birth.

I doubt that this is how it plays out in the books as an annulment of a royal marriage would realistically be a matter of public record. The show, however, has a history of playing fast and loose with details and logic. They should have just gone the polygamy route. Afterall, Sansa's existing marriage to Tyrion did not present any stumbling block to her marrying Ramsay.

 

 

It would have to srve to the story and how ir would exactly? Dany ain't gonna fall for him, he's not going to be dragonrider which is important aspect and ruling while Jon or Dany are alive as likelier rulers probably not. George has been buildling Jon and Dany to rule so eventually one or both will rule. Death of Visrion blows a huge hole and especially aftr las tseasons scene with dragons.

 

On 21. 12. 2016 at 5:23 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

I tend to agree that if AJT is correct in the books, it is likely to be central enough to the endgame that the show would reveal it as well (although unclear what parts of the "endgame" D&D consider pivotal and which they do not so not quite as certain as my friend and collaborator, Consigliere). I also agree that such a reveal should never have been expected prior to season 8. Given the build up surrounding the RLJ reveal that has been going on a relative slow burn since season 6 through season 7 and I think the final reveal to Jon early in season 8, any AJT reveal would be saved for after the RLJ reveal is firmly in the rear view mirror as the last "big twist" of the series.

But I simply was arguing that Tyrion does not have to ride a dragon for Tyrion as Targ bastard to matter. LF raises the classic question of how it would then be revealed or how it would be critical to the plot. I really don't know the answer. Of course, maybe Tyrion does ride Drogon after Dany's death or maybe rides Rhaegal. I really don't know. And if AJT is accurate but if Tyrion does not ride a dragon, then I suspect it will become significant in a way that could not have been predicted (as an analogy for anyone who read the Harry Potter books -- I doubt anyone predicted that the books were really about Harry's journey to destroy all the horcruxes prior to reading book 6).

Bottom line, Tyrion is one of the main characters and seems likely to have some important role in the endgame -- whether Targ or 100% Lannister. So Tyrion has to do something that we cannot necessary think of now. But if GRRM wants Tyrion as Targ to matter to the plot, he probably decided the basic terms of that contribution over 20 years ago and should make sense once revealed. Ultimately, the prophecy that the dragon has three heads has to mean something -- so three characters must do something "special" for the prophecy to be accurate.

As to the R&L marriage issue:

  Reveal hidden contents

I think that the leaks makes it fairly certain that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. I consider this leak, once confirmed by seeing it on the show, to be confirmation that they will turn out to have been married in the books. But I agree with the suggestion that in the books the marriage will be a bigamist marriage for Rhaegar, while in the show they have his first marriage annulled. I understand why the producers made this choice. With respect to Sansa, the marriage to Tyrion can be ignored for a few possible reasons (it was never consummated, Tyrion might be presumed dead and is under a death sentence, Ramsay has his power in the North, the furthest territory from the capital and thus most able to ignore any impact from KL, Ramsay is evil and does not care about rules, etc.). Rhaegar's marriage to Elia could not be as easily overlooked or ignored on the show. He is the crown prince and had two children with Elia. He also is supposed to end up being a good guy in the eyes of the viewers (unlike Ramsay). The show did not prepare the viewers for Targ bigamy in the way that the books have. So I think the choice for the show makes sense for the show but could not work for the books. So the position I have always taken remains my position, I believe that most likely R&L were married even though Rhaegar remained married to Elia at that time.

 

You're hanging too much onto it. Show done very little to hint at it and you kinda need it especially if it such a big deal. If it is rvealed without any hints prior to it, then it's cop out and out of nowhre for the audience. Tyrion is important for the endgame but pushing this with him being Targ. It has to serve and then I ask how? Riding Drogon or Rhaegal. They're for Jon and Dany. Rhaegal is way more fitting for Jon and evn tho I dislike idea of him riding a dragon, it fits. AJT reveal in season 8 would hav to be related to throne more than white walkers and besides three headed dragon concdept is not on the show so consider this.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 21. 12. 2016 at 0:48 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, that sounds weird, especially considering he is, by far,  the character with more screentime in GOT from all the 191.

I don't subscribe the idea of him being a Targaryen, but I think they are saving his determining role for Season 8.

Tyrion will be important during the war as much ass after the war. Yes, I think he'll live. Good Hand of the KIng or Queen is needed and especially in times after white walkers. His skills, leadership and qualities will be needed. But him being  Targ would have to serve the story, like with Jon being a dragonrider most likely and of course bonding with Dany Their relationship.

 

On 21. 12. 2016 at 2:37 PM, Consigliere said:

If the show never reveals AJT then I will consider the theory to be debunked. I do not believe that the show would simply cut out this reveal if the theory were actually true. Like RLJ, AJT if true, should be having an important impact on both character and plot so a lack of reveal would, to me, confirm that the theory was never true in the first place.

Concerning leaks regarding RLJ:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Okay, so one leak says that Jon was "legitimized at birth" and another says that Rhaegar's marriage to Elia was annulled. What plot relevance would annulling his marriage serve if he never married Lyanna anyway? I think it makes much more sense that if Rhaegar had his marriage annulled, he went on to marry Lyanna and the leak should actually read "legitimate" rather than "legitimized" at birth.

I doubt that this is how it plays out in the books as an annulment of a royal marriage would realistically be a matter of public record. The show, however, has a history of playing fast and loose with details and logic. They should have just gone the polygamy route. Afterall, Sansa's existing marriage to Tyrion did not present any stumbling block to her marrying Ramsay.

 

 

It would have to srve to the story and how ir would exactly? Dany ain't gonna fall for him, he's not going to be dragonrider which is important aspect and ruling while Jon or Dany are alive as likelier rulers probably not. George has been buildling Jon and Dany to rule so eventually one or both will rule. Death of Visrion blows a huge hole and especially aftr las tseasons scene with dragons.

 

On 21. 12. 2016 at 5:23 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

I tend to agree that if AJT is correct in the books, it is likely to be central enough to the endgame that the show would reveal it as well (although unclear what parts of the "endgame" D&D consider pivotal and which they do not so not quite as certain as my friend and collaborator, Consigliere). I also agree that such a reveal should never have been expected prior to season 8. Given the build up surrounding the RLJ reveal that has been going on a relative slow burn since season 6 through season 7 and I think the final reveal to Jon early in season 8, any AJT reveal would be saved for after the RLJ reveal is firmly in the rear view mirror as the last "big twist" of the series.

But I simply was arguing that Tyrion does not have to ride a dragon for Tyrion as Targ bastard to matter. LF raises the classic question of how it would then be revealed or how it would be critical to the plot. I really don't know the answer. Of course, maybe Tyrion does ride Drogon after Dany's death or maybe rides Rhaegal. I really don't know. And if AJT is accurate but if Tyrion does not ride a dragon, then I suspect it will become significant in a way that could not have been predicted (as an analogy for anyone who read the Harry Potter books -- I doubt anyone predicted that the books were really about Harry's journey to destroy all the horcruxes prior to reading book 6).

Bottom line, Tyrion is one of the main characters and seems likely to have some important role in the endgame -- whether Targ or 100% Lannister. So Tyrion has to do something that we cannot necessary think of now. But if GRRM wants Tyrion as Targ to matter to the plot, he probably decided the basic terms of that contribution over 20 years ago and should make sense once revealed. Ultimately, the prophecy that the dragon has three heads has to mean something -- so three characters must do something "special" for the prophecy to be accurate.

As to the R&L marriage issue:

  Reveal hidden contents

I think that the leaks makes it fairly certain that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. I consider this leak, once confirmed by seeing it on the show, to be confirmation that they will turn out to have been married in the books. But I agree with the suggestion that in the books the marriage will be a bigamist marriage for Rhaegar, while in the show they have his first marriage annulled. I understand why the producers made this choice. With respect to Sansa, the marriage to Tyrion can be ignored for a few possible reasons (it was never consummated, Tyrion might be presumed dead and is under a death sentence, Ramsay has his power in the North, the furthest territory from the capital and thus most able to ignore any impact from KL, Ramsay is evil and does not care about rules, etc.). Rhaegar's marriage to Elia could not be as easily overlooked or ignored on the show. He is the crown prince and had two children with Elia. He also is supposed to end up being a good guy in the eyes of the viewers (unlike Ramsay). The show did not prepare the viewers for Targ bigamy in the way that the books have. So I think the choice for the show makes sense for the show but could not work for the books. So the position I have always taken remains my position, I believe that most likely R&L were married even though Rhaegar remained married to Elia at that time.

 

You're hanging too much onto it. Show done very little to hint at it and you kinda need it especially if it such a big deal. If it is rvealed without any hints prior to it, then it's cop out and out of nowhre for the audience. Tyrion is important for the endgame but pushing this with him being Targ. It has to serve and then I ask how? Riding Drogon or Rhaegal. They're for Jon and Dany. Rhaegal is way more fitting for Jon and evn tho I dislike idea of him riding a dragon, it fits. AJT reveal in season 8 would hav to be related to throne more than white walkers and besides three headed dragon concdept is not on the show so consider this.

[UnmaskedLurker]

@Consigliere and @Lord Friendzone--

Let me try to address some of your various points (in no particular order and with some overlap to each of you). Do I still believe AJT -- yes (probably -- at least in the books). Do I think Tyrion will be a dragon rider -- I don't know. As I noted above, my original thoughts regarding Tyrion as a Targ did not assume he would be a dragon rider. That assumption was never a corner stone of my thinking. So the reduced likelihood of Tyrion as a dragon rider given certain leaks is not a huge issue for me. I also think that even assuming the leaks to be accurate, I think the potential plot development of Dany dying in battle and Tyrion mounting Drogon to be a real possibility -- not predicting it, but indicating it could happen and would consistent both with the leaks and Tyrion as dragon rider.

If Tyrion will be revealed on the show to be a Targ bastard, I would not expect the reveal until Season 8, and I would not expect too much foreshadowing. I think that D&D likely could not figure out any "subtle" way to leave clues and might think the "shock value" to be a better pay off. Certainly we know that the books and WOIAF include plenty of information that reasonably could be viewed as clues or foreshadowing to that effect (I think there is even a thread dedicated to such a topic on in book forum -- lol). So book readers -- even those who hate and/or do not believe AJT would not reasonably be able to say it came without any warning.

Now to the question of whether -- assuming ATJ is correct regarding the books -- that means that the show necessarily will have the same reveal. I am less certain than consigliere regarding that point. I keep going back to the three-headed dragon prophecy. It is in the books -- but I don't think it is ever mentioned on the show (as I think LF noted). Assuming for a moment that AJT is accurate for book purposes, we still have no idea how it will play out or be relevant to the plot. D&D could have concluded that it was too "inside baseball" (i.e., relevant primarily based on details of the prophecy and Targ history that are explored in the books but ignored on the show) and dropped that element from the plot.

Such a change would not affect their assertion that the end game is basically the same. Tyrion likely still will live or die the same as the books and if he lives, his ultimate position (Lord of CR, Hand to the King/Queen, peasant refuge, whatever) will be the same.  Just as I think that Cersei is playing a much bigger role on the show than she likely will in the books (in part based on the existence of fAegon in the books and not on the show and in part based on the actress being a major star of the show but just a character in the book that GRRM can use as he pleases) and is taken on a role in the plot that I suspect will be quite different in the books, her ultimate fate will be the same. Well, actually, we have the prophecy in the books and repeated (in part) on the show that lets everyone know she is not making it to the end.

So, in summary, still leaning heavily in favor of AJT -- never expected any such reveal before Season 8 -- and not as certain as Consigliere that such a reveal would be viewed by D&D as so central that it in the books it also will be on the show (even if it will still be in the books).

[ravenous reader]

@UnmaskedLurker:  I think we already saw the 'reveal' in the 'dragonwhisperer' scene where Tyrion unchains the dragons and the one (which one...I could never make out the colors?) allows him to touch it.  And the speech goes something like 'I used to dream of you...and now you're here...'  -- that's the intimation of a 'dragon dream' coming to fulfilment, the way I understood it.

I don't know who the dragonriders will be -- although I'm pretty sure in the end Bran will skinchange Drogon, once Dany either dies or loses control of him (just an instinct)!

[Wouter]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

@UnmaskedLurker:  I think we already saw the 'reveal' in the 'dragonwhisperer' scene where Tyrion unchains the dragons and the one (which one...I could never make out the colors?) allows him to touch it.  And the speech goes something like 'I used to dream of you...and now you're here...'  -- that's the intimation of a 'dragon dream' coming to fulfilment, the way I understood it.

I don't know who the dragonriders will be -- although I'm pretty sure in the end Bran will skinchange Drogon, once Dany either dies or loses control of him (just an instinct)!

In the show, Bran could also potentially skinchange

Spoiler

dead Viserion, to hijack the ride of the Night's King (assuming the leak from Awayforthelads is accurate, as it looks to be at least for much of the scenes filmed in Spain).

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

15 hours ago, Wouter said:

In the show, Bran could also potentially skinchange

  Hide contents

dead Viserion, to hijack the ride of the Night's King (assuming the leak from Awayforthelads is accurate, as it looks to be at least for much of the scenes filmed in Spain).

 

Has there ever been any indication that skinchanging can be done to a wight?

[ravenous reader]

4 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Has there ever been any indication that skinchanging can be done to a wight?

The Walkers at least seem to be operating on 'autopilot', as if directed en masse by a single external source:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

When he found the courage to look again, a long time had passed, and the ridge below was empty.

Also, if you think about it, re-animating the dead --re-igniting the fire once that fire has gone out, so to speak -- is basically within the purview of skinchanging.

19 hours ago, Wouter said:

In the show, Bran could also potentially skinchange

  Reveal hidden contents

dead Viserion, to hijack the ride of the Night's King (assuming the leak from Awayforthelads is accurate, as it looks to be at least for much of the scenes filmed in Spain).

 

That's one way of interpreting the meaning of 'wake dragons from stone'..!

[Wouter]

5 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Has there ever been any indication that skinchanging can be done to a wight?

Not really, but the animation + controlling ability of the Others may be a superset of the skinchanging ability. Bran will likely be a super-powerful skinchanger so who know's what he may be able to do.

Though admittedly, it may be only possible for the Others to use this kind of magic.