[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[JonSnow4President]

4 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I have been meaning to ask -- the media seems to continually report on cast and crew of the show answering the question of whether Jon is alive and many of them answer the question and purport to confirm that Jon is dead. But has anyone reported asking the question that should be asked. No one should ask whether Jon is dead -- sure I accept that he is dead. The question is whether he will remain dead. Has anyone seen any reports of anyone asking that question -- and if so -- how it was addressed?

The closest I've scene was a British talk show asking if he would rise as a White Walker.

[RumHam]

3 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

So UL, how do you overcome the fact that the show has absolutely nothing setting up AJT?  (Specifically as it relates to the show).  No dragon dreams, and no possible poles and holes explanation.

I don't see it as an issue. As far as I can recall they've done next to nothing to set up the Rhaegar / Lyanna reveal but we all know that's coming. 

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

I think it couldn't be more obvious that blood magic is what allowed the Valyrians to control the dragons. The one thing that people who don't think Valyrian/Targaryen blood is necessary to ride a dragon cling to is Nettles. Other than that (and really, why introduce the concept of dragonseeds? Just for laughs or is there likely more to it and this info is setting us up for other things?) the evidence that Valyrian blood is needed is overwhelming in my opinion. This is another one of those things that comes down to personal preference as opposed to there not actually being evidence. People who don't want blood to factor in are inclined to think that Nettles is an example of somebody who supposedly didn't have the right blood. 

I think the show conversation where Tywin is talking about how he's made sacrifices for House Lannister after Tyrion accuses him of expecting everyone else in the family to constantly make sacrifices is significant. "I raised you as my son" is an odd way of phrasing it and IMO it's a lot more of a sacrifice on Tywin's part if he's raising a son that he completely doubts is his. If Tywin's argument is that he made a personal sacrifice by allowing his own son to live--I don't see how that's nearly as much of a sacrifice as if he decided to raise the child of the man who raped his wife. 

Regarding how the info will be revealed on the show---

I will admit to having doubts about how it would be revealed once they killed Barristan and have been wondering how it would come about and then considered, what if we're given pieces from more than one source so that the audience maybe puts it together before or just before Tyrion does.

I was thinking about what they're going to have Kevan do all season and I wondered if he could end up having a conversation with Jaime and/or Cersei about Tywin/Joanna/Aerys/Tyrion. I can see a conversation where Kevan maybe talks about how Myrcella was more like Joanna than Cersei or something like that to get the ball rolling. 

I think Varys could be the one to tell Tyrion or at least hint at it. 

I'd initially considered Bran somehow helping to reveal the info but given the info that's available so far I'm guessing (I have no idea) that he isn't going to have any flashbacks this season that involve the Lannisters. 

I can't see why Tyrion would be on Melisandre's radar and I'm unsure if Moqorro is going to be a character. If Moqorro ends up being a character (and is maybe involved with Yara) I can see him spilling some info too. 

Are there any other show characters that could end up giving us AJT information? 

I suppose Dany could bring up how Barristan once mentioned to her that both of her parents would have preferred to be with other people if given the choice but I can't see how it would even come up given how Dothraki centered her story is likely to be this season. 

[239JMFL34109]

R+L=J to me fits Jon's story which is really him asking the question "who am i?" 

He starts the story trying to find an identity in the NW; a good and noble order who defends the realm from these evil people. 

Except the NW is not good and noble and the freefolk are not evil and etc...

R+L=J to me is another step on the journey. Am i defined by whose son i am? and etc....

I feel like this journey will make him question stuff like "are the others just evil or do they have real reason to do as they have done?" 

A+J=T doesn't really fit Tyrion's story to me. 

Tyrion's story is to me a story about "what do i want?"

I think at the start he is sure that he wants revenge, power, and women. After getting all three at one point or another in the story? None of these thing make him happy.  So what is it that he truly wants? 

I am sure you can make either R+L=J or A+J=T as boring or as interesting as you want them to be. 

[Jô Maltese]

17 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I have been meaning to ask -- the media seems to continually report on cast and crew of the show answering the question of whether Jon is alive and many of them answer the question and purport to confirm that Jon is dead. But has anyone reported asking the question that should be asked. No one should ask whether Jon is dead -- sure I accept that he is dead. The question is whether he will remain dead. Has anyone seen any reports of anyone asking that question -- and if so -- how it was addressed?

 

Jon Bradley-West actually did:

https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e759bf9f2573c6f4f5482049a5072132?convert_to_webp=true

[UnmaskedLurker]

32 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

R+L=J to me fits Jon's story which is really him asking the question "who am i?" 

He starts the story trying to find an identity in the NW; a good and noble order who defends the realm from these evil people. 

Except the NW is not good and noble and the freefolk are not evil and etc...

R+L=J to me is another step on the journey. Am i defined by whose son i am? and etc....

I feel like this journey will make him question stuff like "are the others just evil or do they have real reason to do as they have done?" 

A+J=T doesn't really fit Tyrion's story to me. 

Tyrion's story is to me a story about "what do i want?"

I think at the start he is sure that he wants revenge, power, and women. After getting all three at one point or another in the story? None of these thing make him happy.  So what is it that he truly wants? 

I am sure you can make either R+L=J or A+J=T as boring or as interesting as you want them to be. 

I guess I don't see Tyrion's story that way. I think both Jon's story and Tyrion's story is all about asking "Where do I fit in? Where can I feel like I am accepted as a full part of a family?"  RLJ and AJT are part of the answer to those questions. Jon finds out that he really was not an unwanted bastard -- that he is the (I believe legitimate) son of the former crown prince. That he has a destiny to fulfill. Similarly, Tyrion finds out why he never really was fully accepted as a Lannister. Tyrion finds out that rather than really having a right to be Heir to CR, he is a royal bastard -- son the Mad King. But Tyrion also has a destiny to fulfill.

Both Jon and Tyrion are trying to find themselves and figure out how they fit into the world and what is their purpose in the world. RLJ and AJT will be part of the pieces of those puzzles.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

 

Shouldn't that make him feel REALLY guilty about killing Tywin?  When it would turn out that Tywin had actual reasons to resent him, that he was a living reminder of the rape, presumably, that caused his wife's death, that he was a bastard, and his father was "mad"..that he was a living albatross that Aerys managed to hang around his neck.

[239JMFL34109]

17 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I guess I don't see Tyrion's story that way. I think both Jon's story and Tyrion's story is all about asking "Where do I fit in? Where can I feel like I am accepted as a full part of a family?"  RLJ and AJT are part of the answer to those questions. Jon finds out that he really was not an unwanted bastard -- that he is the (I believe legitimate) son of the former crown prince. That he has a destiny to fulfill. Similarly, Tyrion finds out why he never really was fully accepted as a Lannister. Tyrion finds out that rather than really having a right to be Heir to CR, he is a royal bastard -- son the Mad King. But Tyrion also has a destiny to fulfill.

Both Jon and Tyrion are trying to find themselves and figure out how they fit into the world and what is their purpose in the world. RLJ and AJT will be part of the pieces of those puzzles.

17 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

 

IT'S SUBJECTIVE!!!! It's cool man!!!

the reason i disagree with you is that while Family and where do i belong are almost always part of everyone's story i don't feel like they drive their stories like "who am i?" for jon and "what do i want ?" for tyrion.

Jon takes conscious step way for look for belonging instead looking for self fulfillment and purpose following the dream of a lone ranger north of the wall. He wants to be recognised for what he can do but not the group for which he belongs. He talks about rising high in their ranks not about being among brothers. The people who are going to be his brother seem to be a nuisance at first to him. Jon also has to deal with these things society throws on him to define him like batard or prince. He seems to be heading to see that these titles like Lord snow are meaningless to who you are as they can be at once an insult and at another time sign of respect. The stark are always family that loved him and he would always have an outside perspective of either side of his family no matter who his parent were in the end.  

Jon begins with the self-identity of this unlucky boy born a bastard at the beginning of the books. He thinks he has had a hard life being Ned's bastard but Tyrion point out that 'no' you have not. Jon is actually very privileged to have been living the life he has been. So if he is not unlucky to have been born bastard what does that make him? he thinks he is a skilled fighter but is that who he is? and would not all of these other poor lowborn men around him have similar skills? and etc...

Jon finding out about who is his father challenges not his family but his identity. He is still part of the stark family and he always knew he had another side to his family the details are different. He has alway been going around having people call him Ned Stark's bastard But just like being ned's stark's bastard didn't define him i don't think being Rhaegar's son will define him. These are who he is related to not who he is, Jon snow is a name that people call him it is not who he is, and etc...

As for tyrion IF A+J=T is true what does this really change about his family?  It does not change his place in the world  that he knows so well. He understand that he is on the one hand lucky to be alive but on the other unlucky in that he will never be accepted by society thanks to his birth either way if the theory is true or not. His family is always the lannister if the theory is true or not. His father would still be a horrible person under whose shadow he would be trapped. 

also i think he is also very clear on what he wants as i remember him telling bronn very early when the are leaving the vale that he wants revenge against his father and power. As the War goes on he gets power but does it make him happy? He finally gets revenge on tywin for what he did and again he is empty and depressed? He sort of gave up on the love of a woman but he found out through jamie that he actually had it and it was taken away. Those short two weeks seem to have been the happiest he has ever been. If does he truly gets revenge on jaime by killing his kids and lover will that make him any happier? We are told that cersei fears his revenge in that he will kill her and it almost looks like he will bring down this younger queen to take the power that she has always wanted but i don't think that the case on either point.

[Weirdo]

21 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

So UL, how do you overcome the fact that the show has absolutely nothing setting up AJT?  (Specifically as it relates to the show).  No dragon dreams, and no possible poles and holes explanation.

Tyrion's wildfire gambit on the Blackwater is, for the show, a major cornerstone of A+J=T, should it prove to be true. First of all, Blackwater was a huge deal on the show, because it was great visual storytelling, especially the the big green BOOM. They also made Jaime's story of Aerys's desire to burn King's Landing with wildfire extremely important, allowing it to be the seminal event in the Kingslayer's life, and a bonding event for Jaime and Brienne. The wildfire is described by Jaime as Aerys's project, the reason Jaime killed him. Then, it becomes Tyrion's project. This works well for the show as foreshadowing in my opinion.

Then we have Tyrion's reaction to Drogon flying over the boat in the ruins of Valyria. This is a big change from the book, meant to give Tyrion a moment of awe and recognition. In the book, as Suzannah has pointed out, there is only the sound of leathery wings in the darkness, and Tyrion's thought on it are not elaborated (not to mention they are nowhere near Valyria in the book). In contrast, show Tyrion's jaw drops, he is compelled to rise to his feet, and watches in awe as the dragon passes. If they mean to establish Tyrion's connection to both dragons and Valyrians, they did an excellent job with that sequence.

[UnmaskedLurker]

21 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I thought my exchange with Cas addressed that issue. It will be "SHOCK" -- Tyrion just bonded with a dragon -- how is that possible -- oh my, he really is the son of the Mad King (who has been referenced on the show). I think I overstated it a bit in terms of there being NO foreshadowing. I think from time to time, SS has pointed out little bits of foreshadowing that has been included in the show that possibly point to AJT -- but someone would really have to know what to be looking for to spot any.

But even assuming AJT to be correct, the show is not going to talk about the need for dragon blood to bond with a dragon until they need to in order to explain how Tyrion bonding with a dragon means he must be the son of Aerys. They just have no reason to talk about until then. I suspect that on the show it will be Varys who tells the backstory of Aerys raping (or possibly seducing, not 100% sure) Joanna about 9 moons prior to Tyrion's birth. In the books I think it will be Selmy, but not sure.

The show has not really set up RLJ either. We are getting ToJ this season, so it will be revealed in S6. I cannot imagine there are very many show only viewers who even consider RLJ at all.

Now assuming AJT is correct, I am less certain whether we get that reveal in S6 or S7. Based on the spoilers for S6 that I have seen, I think we might have to wait for S7. Which might mean that GRRM actually will get to do that reveal in WoW (assuming it comes out before S7 of HBO GoT) before HBO does, although maybe the AJT reveal won't be in WoW either (depending on whether GRRM really is going to finish in 7 books or realizes he needs at least 8).

So I have been looking at a few more spoiler sources and apparently something quite shocking is supposed to happen in the last episode of the season. Maybe confirmation bias is taking hold of me with great force -- but what could be more shocking to the audience than Tyrion mounting a dragon during the Battle for Meereen (according to another spoiler, Dany is supposed to show up with the Dothraki at the Meereen gate in the final episode)? The AJT aspect of the reveal might not happen until the first episode of S7, but Tyrion riding a dragon seems like a real possibility for S6 E10.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

As I stated previously, we know there will be other riders besides Dany on the show and in the books, and we know based on the books and TWOIAF and the short stories that Valyrian blood is required to ride dragons.  So whoever rides the dragons will have Valyrian blood.  In the books Brown Ben Plumm is with Dany whom we know has a good amount of Targ blood due to having 2 Targ great (or great great) grandparents on one side.  Also Vic is headed to Meereen with a dragonbinder horn which may nullify the need for Targ blood to get control of a dragon. And Tyrion is there picking up blood covered white dragon cyvasse pieces right as he declares his allegiance for Dany, so there are of course options in the books as to who will fly the dragons out of Meereen besides Dany.  On the show however there are no such available characters except Tyrion, I honestly have zero idea what HBO will do to get the 3rd dragon out of Meereen, but by process of elimination Tyrion MUST be one of the riders, it is why he is in Meereen on HBO, so far he has done nothing, as Daario pointed out in the Season 6 finale.  Tyrion brings nothing to the table except talking, he has no real purpose, and when Varys is convincing him to go to Meereen he doesnt really give a clear purpose either except a Targaryen restoration in the form of Dany, which is a pretty big nod to AJT as well.  He wants a Targ restoration to the Iron Throne and he wants Tyrion involved...not Jaime, not Sansa, not Arya, not Littlefinger....only Tyrion.

 

And yeah Tywin on HBo included the two dialogues stating that he does not believe TYrion to be his son; with his dying words and the other time at the council table as JM pointed out.

 

Now by contrast Ned never once says anything on the show to Jon about not being his father.  As I said the show is really only sticking true to a few storylines from the book, the most accurate are Jon, Dany, Tyrion.  Why would HBO put those lines in from Tywin if it would amount to nothing?

 

Also Tyrion and Dany had the ONE conversation on the show where they started the dialogue about Aerys/Jaime/Tywin.  And Joanna has been mentioned I think once or twice correct?  There is absolutely just as much groundwork for AJT as there has been for RLJ.  In DwD Tyrion sees/hears Drogon in the trees something like 300-400 miles away from Meereen when he is missing from Dany's chapters.  We all debated  as to whether it really was Drogon, then on the show they showed the exact same scene, Tyrion is the first one to see a dragon outside of Dany's POV, how could that possibly be irrelevant?  How many coincidences must there be lol?  I mean it's a big wide world, yet several hundred miles away from his mother and brothers he flies directly over the possible son of the Mad King? There is not any other answer that would make sense.

 

 

 

[JonSnow4President]

You know, I think I know what it feels like to be that Addicted2Snow guy from some of the older R+L=J threads.  

And sadly, just by the nature of the theory, my argument is essentially reduced to "I don't think that means what you think it means," or "You're reading too much into it." I hope I'm not coming across as smug and that I've figured out some grand mystery everyone is missing.  

[Suzanna Stormborn]

On 4/6/2016 at 9:23 AM, Cas Stark said:

I agree, it will be that the actual story mirrors this forum where everyone and their dead brother is a secret Targaryen, I agree also that it's extremely cheesy and if they all turn out to be Targaryens whose mothers died giving birth to them...so much for GRRM being the breaker of tropes.  LOL.  But, I do think after the world book came out, that it makes it much, much more likely that Tyrion turns out to be Aerys son.  And then I would ask, if Tyrion is going to ride the dragon because he's a Targaryen, why in the hell even bother with the Aegon story AT ALL????  Do we really need an entire sub-story as a fake out of a fake out in a series that the author already can't finish?

The show hasn 't done much w/the idea of Tyrion being a secret Targ, but since they love SHOCK, it's not surprising I guess

The bolded I very much agree with, that's the same way I felt when I read Sansa's WoW sample chapter and was like 'ok here's at least 30 new characters we've barely or never heard of before at a party at the Eyrie, great lets have conclusions for all them as well in just 2 books.'

 

On 4/6/2016 at 4:01 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

I have been meaning to ask -- the media seems to continually report on cast and crew of the show answering the question of whether Jon is alive and many of them answer the question and purport to confirm that Jon is dead. But has anyone reported asking the question that should be asked. No one should ask whether Jon is dead -- sure I accept that he is dead. The question is whether he will remain dead. Has anyone seen any reports of anyone asking that question -- and if so -- how it was addressed?

Hahaha, D&D and Kit Harrington must have to feel slightly stupid for adamantly lying to the whole world in several different interviews about how Jon Snow is dead and Kit doesnt know why he's on the payroll for season 7 and 8 and whatever other BS they said.  It was an international hoax that we all knew was a hoax the whole time.  He was like 'they even sat me down and told me Jon was dead just liek they used to do on the Sopranos when someone died'....(oh puh-lease).  ....'oh and btw, I'll just be hanging around Belfast for the next 3 years, ya know, just for fun....'

[239JMFL34109]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

As I stated previously, we know there will be other riders besides Dany on the show and in the books, and we know based on the books and TWOIAF and the short stories that Valyrian blood is required to ride dragons.  So whoever rides the dragons will have Valyrian blood.  In the books Brown Ben Plumm is with Dany whom we know has a good amount of Targ blood due to having 2 Targ great (or great great) grandparents on one side.  Also Vic is headed to Meereen with a dragonbinder horn which may nullify the need for Targ blood to get control of a dragon, so there are of course options in the books as to who will fly the dragons out of Meereen besides Dany.  On the show however there are no such available characters except Tyrion, I honestly have zero idea what HBO will do to get the 3rd dragon out of Meereen, but by process of elimination Tyrion MUST be one of the riders, it is why he is in Meereen on HBO, so far he has done nothing, as Daario pointed out in the Season 6 finale.  Tyrion brings nothing to the table except talking, he has no real purpose, and when Varys is convincing him to go to Meereen he doesnt really give a clear purpose either except a Targaryen restoration in the form of Dany, which is a pretty big nod to AJT as well.  He wants a Targ restoration to the Iron Throne and he wants Tyrion involved...not Jaime, not Sansa, not Arya, not Littlefinger....only Tyrion.

 

And yeah Tywin on HBo included the two dialogues stating that he does not believe TYrion to be his son; with his dying words and the other time at the council table as JM pointed out.

 

Now by contrast Ned never once says anything on the show to Jon about not being his father.  As I said the show is really only sticking true to a few storylines from the book, the most accurate are Jon, Dany, Tyrion.  Why would HBO put those lines in from Tywin if it would amount to nothing?

 

Also Tyrion and Dany had the ONE conversation on the show where they started the dialogue about Aerys/Jaime/Tywin.  And Joanna has been mentioned I think once or twice correct?  There is absolutely just as much groundwork for AJT as there has been for RLJ.  In DwD Tyrion sees/hears Drogon in the trees something like 300-400 miles away from Meereen when he is missing from Dany's chapters.  We all debated  as to whether it really was Drogon, then on the show they showed the exact same scene, Tyrion is the first one to see a dragon outside of Dany's POV, how could that possibly be irrelevant?  How many coincidences must there be lol?  I mean it's a big wide world, yet several hundred miles away from his mother and brothers he flies directly over the possible son of the Mad King? There is not any other answer that would make sense.

 

 

 

Tywin dialogue was also followed right after by Tyrion's that he was his son.  So the fact that Ned is always referenced as Jon's dad but Tywin makes reference to not being Tyrion father proves tyrion is not his son would mean that Ned is jon's father? 

On the other hand "i have no son" or "you no son of mine" are fairly common lines to show that father disowning his son in fiction. Also it is ironic as Tyrion is the most like Tywin. Tywin a man so concerned with family legacy but he ignored or broke his children till they destroy that very legacy he was making. He missed that the best person to carry on the legacy was the Son he spurred. 

I would not be surprised if Kavan says that whole you "i told tywin how much tyrion is like him and he didn't talk with me for a year" line from the book. 

Johanna is not mentioned in Dany tyrion meeting at all. It is all Tywin and the mad king and how they are both terrible too. Which is more of mark that Dany and tyrion will parallel The mad king and tywin than they share parents. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gquLZJpt-Q

[Suzanna Stormborn]

6 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Tywin dialogue was also followed right after by Tyrion's that he was his son.  So the fact that Ned is always referenced as Jon's dad but Tywin makes reference to not being Tyrion father proves tyrion is not his son would mean that Ned is jon's father? 

On the other hand "i have no son" or "you no son of mine" are fairly common lines to show that father disowning his son in fiction. Also it is ironic as Tyrion is the most like Tywin. Tywin a man so concerned with family legacy but he ignored or broke his children till they destroy that very legacy he was making. He missed that the best person to carry on the legacy was the Son he spurred. 

I would not be surprised if Kavan says that whole you "i told tywin how much tyrion is like him and he didn't talk with me for a year" line from the book. 

Johanna is not mentioned in Dany tyrion meeting at all. It is all Tywin and the mad king and how they are both terrible too. Which is more of mark that Dany and tyrion will parallel The mad king and tywin than they share parents. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gquLZJpt-Q

IDK if you have read through UL's AJT threads, but we thoroughly address every point you just made.  And I meant that Joanna is mentioned once or twice on the show total IIRC, not in that one conversation, sorry.  She is hardly ever mentioned at all, but neither is Lyanna except for Season 1, and I think Dany's mentions her brother running off with her 1 time maybe.  

 

My point about Ned is  that RLJ is 100% true we all know it, but there has been little to zero set up for it on the show, so saying that there is very little set up for AJT means nothing since there is little to no setup for something we are all perfectly sure will happen.

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

IDK if you have read through UL's AJT threads, but we thoroughly address every point you just made.  And I meant that Joanna is mentioned once or twice on the show total IIRC, not in that one conversation, sorry.  She is hardly ever mentioned at all, but neither is Lyanna except for Season 1, and I think Dany's mentions her brother running off with the her 1 time maybe.  

 

My point about Ned is  that RLJ is 100% true we all know it, but there has been little to zero set up for it on the show, so saying that there is very little set up for AJT means nothing since there is little to no setup for something we are all perfectly sure will happen.

Lyanna has been mentioned outside of season 1 (I know Bran has an explanation of what happened while they're in the crypts, and Littlefinger has his little speech to Sansa).  As long as you bring up terms to who they relate to, every shownly I've known remembers Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.  Outside of mocking Tyrion for killing their mother, I can't remember Joanna being mentioned, and never by name.  There's a difference between there but not a lot and zero.

As far as the AJT threads, I find them thoroughly unconvincing.  Unlike R+L=J, I don't think AJT comes anywhere close to shutting down or convincingly addressing the common opposition points.  It's more than one like HR=HS, but it's not particularly convincing IMO.  It's more like building an entire theory out of the little snippets for R+L=J (kings in Snow, etc.) without the larger supporting dreams, Ned's actions/memories, etc.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Cersei says the phrase 'my mother' about a dozen times, as does Tyrion.  I'd have to research to see if her name is ever mentioned.

Anyway we will be talking about AJT quite a lot here, even if you dont rate it as a solid 'theory'.  When reading the books for the first time I picked up on it before I picked up on RLJ, and I know many Shownly people who have no freaking idea what I am talking about when I try to explain about Rhaegar and Lyanna.  So I guess it is different for everyone.

[JonSnow4President]

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Cersei says the phrase 'my mother' about a dozen times, as does Tyrion.  I'd have to research to see if her name is ever mentioned.

Anyway we will be talking about AJT quite a lot here, even if you dont rate it as a solid 'theory'.  When reading the books for the first time I picked up on it before I picked up on RLJ, and I know many Shownly people who have no freaking idea what I am talking about when I try to explain about Rhaegar and Lyanna.  So I guess it is different for everyone.

All I had to do was "remember how Daenerys' older brother that started the war with Robert and Eddard kidnapped Eddard's sister and took her away"  Then a couple eyebrow raises, and it clicked for him.  

From the show, I can only remember "My mother died birthing me," and the "Your greatest joke" scene, but it's been awhile since I've rewatched more than the first 13 episodes (in the middle of a rewatch now, starting with episode 2.04 tonight)

And that's fine, I'm not trying to stop you from discussing it.  I'm just pointing out that it's one of those theories that isn't particularly good for debating because it's either you believe in what you're seeing or you don't.  You can't really try and factually argue "literary purpose," or what is "better" for the story.  

And once you've decided "That is the dumbest thing ever and subverts Tyrion's relationship with Tywin," or "That is the cleverest thing ever and really adds to/explains Tyrion's relationship with Tywin," I find that we're hard to convince otherwise.  

[239JMFL34109]

15 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

IDK if you have read through UL's AJT threads, but we thoroughly address every point you just made.  And I meant that Joanna is mentioned once or twice on the show total IIRC, not in that one conversation, sorry.  She is hardly ever mentioned at all, but neither is Lyanna except for Season 1, and I think Dany's mentions her brother running off with her 1 time maybe.  

 

My point about Ned is  that RLJ is 100% true we all know it, but there has been little to zero set up for it on the show, so saying that there is very little set up for AJT means nothing since there is little to no setup for something we are all perfectly sure will happen.

She was mentioned a lot in season 5. Oberyn mentions it when he is introduced in season 4. LF and Sansa had a scene about it. 

They even have a back to back where they tell you Rhaegar was great person and then Rhaegar raped lyanna but LF raises his eyebrow at that. 

here is a nice video about that. 

 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

8 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

All I had to do was "remember how Daenerys' older brother that started the war with Robert and Eddard kidnapped Eddard's sister and took her away"  Then a couple eyebrow raises, and it clicked for him.  

From the show, I can only remember "My mother died birthing me," and the "Your greatest joke" scene, but it's been awhile since I've rewatched more than the first 13 episodes (in the middle of a rewatch now, starting with episode 2.04 tonight)

And that's fine, I'm not trying to stop you from discussing it.  I'm just pointing out that it's one of those theories that isn't particularly good for debating because it's either you believe in what you're seeing or you don't.  You can't really try and factually argue "literary purpose," or what is "better" for the story.  

And once you've decided "That is the dumbest thing ever and subverts Tyrion's relationship with Tywin," or "That is the cleverest thing ever and really adds to/explains Tyrion's relationship with Tywin," I find that we're hard to convince otherwise.  

If I start with, 'remember in Season 1 when Robert (the fat king) was bitching about Ned's sister??' It usually jogs the memory but I definitely wish there had been more about the rebellion, I really wish there had been some flash back scenes already, which is the main reason I am excited for season 7.