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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

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2 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Bloodraven and Bran may have a hand in this. Somebody here proposed this as an alternative solution. Like combination or even the doing it, but then we have so far no reason to believe that they could do something like that.

there was a lot of weirwood and etc... throughout the beric stuff that makes me think kiss of life way maybe only be one of the way to come back? look at coldhands who seem to remember everything that happened to him but is like a cold corpse? 

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9 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

there was a lot of weirwood and etc... throughout the beric stuff that makes me think kiss of life way maybe only be one of the way to come back? look at coldhands who seem to remember everything that happened to him but is like a cold corpse? 

R'hllor or his priestess are established as the one who can bring back the dead. We know next to nothing about Bran and Blodraven ability. They might land a help and without anybody noticing it. Mel might even take a credit for it.

Keep in mind Jon is dead almost one day. I know he's preserved much better than Cat was, rotting in the river until Nymeria found her. But still they would need to it in next episodes 2 or 3. Whatever they want to do, they need to act quickly and Mel is currently in no mood to do anything. She give up almost. Since wildlings will likely made it to Castle Black. She needs some guidence to perform kiss of life or any other method to resurrect him. 

Good thing they didn't do it in premiere but time is ticking.

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1 hour ago, Lord Friendzone said:

R'hllor or his priestess are established as the one who can bring back the dead. We know next to nothing about Bran and Blodraven ability. They might land a help and without anybody noticing it. Mel might even take a credit for it.

Keep in mind Jon is dead almost one day. I know he's preserved much better than Cat was, rotting in the river until Nymeria found her. But still they would need to it in next episodes 2 or 3. Whatever they want to do, they need to act quickly and Mel is currently in no mood to do anything. She give up almost. Since wildlings will likely made it to Castle Black. She needs some guidence to perform kiss of life or any other method to resurrect him. 

Good thing they didn't do it in premiere but time is ticking.

what proof do we have a day has passed? it could be a few hours at this point. 

also i am wondering what convinces her? maybe jon in ghost? davos? maybe bran and bloodraven do it? 

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14 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

there is no reason to believe bringing jon back requires a soul. 

I too think she is more powerful but there are other shadow binders in the books (quainte) and i don't think we have seen anything to say that she is part of the  same religion. so there is no reason to assume her magic shadow powers really have anything to do with her faith. she is just one who is a part of the red gods religion. 

I think she doesn't bring jon back because she's having a crisis of faith. She doesn't think she can bring jon bank because she doesn't believe. 

Right, I don't think her being a shadow binder has any bearing on her ability to bring people back to life. That's a R'hollor thing. I was just trying to imagine how her being a shadow binder might make her unable to do what Thoros seemed to be able to do easily. I don't think her being a shadow binder will prevent her from reviving Jon. I thought you were suggesting that it could. 

2 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

what proof do we have a day has passed? it could be a few hours at this point. 

I think he was stabbed at night and Davos found him just before dawn. Thorne gave them the deadline of nightfall, so nothing's going to happen until then. So I'd imagine he will have been dead for around a day when he's brought back.

9 minutes ago, Darksky said:

It appears TOJ is happening sooner than we thought

 

https://twitter.com/luke_j_roberts/status/724298663988715521

That sounds about right. I wonder when Jon will find out though. 

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I'm surprised there hasn't been more discussion here of Tyrion getting up close and personal with the dragons in 6x02, given the A+J=T theory.

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22 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So if ToJ is Ep 3 -- I think we can also guess that Ep 3 will also include the resurrection of Christ, I mean Jon (Easter Sunday comes late on HBO).

I'm not sure I follow you. You think they're gonna drag it out that long? I could see that if there were no Castle Black scenes in episode two, but the preview showed some. Dragging it out further would be annoying, and I don't see the need to tie the reveal to his revival. Though they could have him open his eyes at the end of two and not actually say or do anything until episode three. I'm gonna spoiler this as it involves set pictures and reports from filming

It seems like the Tower of Joy scene is going to be a Bran thing. It's possible Jon could also be there in his death coma or whatever, but I don't see how. Plus we've seen pictures of him dressed as a Stark soldier fighting in the big battle. I don't expect him to find out about his parents until after that. Not that he'd be like "sorry Sansa, you're on your own" if he knew, but you know what I mean.

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11 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm not sure I follow you. You think they're gonna drag it out that long? I could see that if there were no Castle Black scenes in episode two, but the preview showed some. Dragging it out further would be annoying, and I don't see the need to tie the reveal to his revival. Though they could have him open his eyes at the end of two and not actually say or do anything until episode three. I'm gonna spoiler this as it involves set pictures and reports from filming

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It seems like the Tower of Joy scene is going to be a Bran thing. It's possible Jon could also be there in his death coma or whatever, but I don't see how. Plus we've seen pictures of him dressed as a Stark soldier fighting in the big battle. I don't expect him to find out about his parents until after that. Not that he'd be like "sorry Sansa, you're on your own" if he knew, but you know what I mean.

 

I was against it but to pair TOJ with his resurrection could be perfect. It would increase the impact of his resurection given that audience will know who he truly is. Yes, in episode 2 we see fair amount of Castle Black scenes could be just fight and some talk. But I just can't see Mel right now doing anything. She has her crisis of identity or faith and needs guidance from someone. episode three makese pefect sense if TOJ is truly there and not splitted into two episodes. Jon ain't got much to do. Besides battle, wildlings will follow him after resurrection and rallying the North seems to be job for someone else. We might even see Pink Letter.

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4 hours ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

what proof do we have a day has passed? it could be a few hours at this point. 

also i am wondering what convinces her? maybe jon in ghost? davos? maybe bran and bloodraven do it? 

Better wording would he'll be. Because he was murder at night, then Davos found later on, then we saw daylight with Thorne negotiating with Davos. Then Wun Wun smashing gates at the night. That would be one day. There is a time but they need to move on, because the more time he'll spend like that, worse the consequences.

Since TOJ could ep. 3 and Bran will learn it. Bloodraven wants him to see it and act accordingly or maybe he'll push Mel into doing something...especially since he might truly be her father. Mel needs something in episode 2 to move on. R'hllor might not be enough since she's doubting him and herself. Ghost? It doesn't seem like Jon warged into him and he already triggered Davos to find Jon's body.  Or perhaps could be combination of all those things.

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13 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm not sure I follow you. You think they're gonna drag it out that long? I could see that if there were no Castle Black scenes in episode two, but the preview showed some. Dragging it out further would be annoying, and I don't see the need to tie the reveal to his revival. Though they could have him open his eyes at the end of two and not actually say or do anything until episode three. I'm gonna spoiler this as it involves set pictures and reports from filming

 

  Hide contents

It seems like the Tower of Joy scene is going to be a Bran thing. It's possible Jon could also be there in his death coma or whatever, but I don't see how. Plus we've seen pictures of him dressed as a Stark soldier fighting in the big battle. I don't expect him to find out about his parents until after that. Not that he'd be like "sorry Sansa, you're on your own" if he knew, but you know what I mean.

 

Obviously I cannot be sure when the resurrection occurs (although I am 99.9999999% certain that Jon will come back to life this season). I doubt it happens later than Ep 3, but I don't think Ep 3 is that dragged out. We have previews that have been released of the NW breaking down the door where Jon is being kept by his allies -- with Ghost not too happy -- but I think those previews include a cut to Jon's dead body -- so he is still dead when the conflict between the NW and Jon's allies happen.

I have surmised -- admittedly with not that much evidence -- that Ep 2 involves action at the Wall only covering the conflict between the NW and the Jon allies -- with the NW about to kill Jon's allies when the wildings show up and "save the day." As we should expect by now, every difficult situation for characters we tend to favor get to a point where they seem completely hopeless and then -- someone arrives to save the day. This scenario has occurred over and over and over and over again (such as Tywin at Blackwater, Stannis at the Wall, Brienne saving Sansa -- I could go on). So I expect that the action at the Wall will be covering that conflict and the resolution of that action. Given that the show is only 1 hour a week -- and the Wall can only be a part of that time, this action is more than enough to be all the action at the Wall for Ep 2. I tend to think that at the end of Ep 2, Jon is still dead.

Then we have Ep. 3 with the ToJ flashback. So now the audience gets clued into who Jon really is -- who his parents really were. But Jon is still dead -- so the audience is thinking "So sad, Jon died not knowing that he really was the son of R&L." But then the last scene of Ep 3 involves Jon being resurrected. I have my own ideas on how that goes (and I don't think it comes just from a simple kiss from Mel), but it is really mostly just speculation, so I won't go into my ideas for that scene unless someone really wants me to express my possible scenario (which is quite bitter-sweet). After that reveal -- the audience now shifts from being sad that Jon never found out his parentage to wondering how and when Jon will come to learn his parentage. So it makes sense to me that ToJ comes before the resurrection.

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A promo still from episode 3 featuring Bran and Bloodraven in what appears to be TOJ scenery further back up the claim TOJ's next week.

http://8840-presscdn-0-18.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/bran-and-the-three-eyed-crow.jpg

In episode 2 Bran has a flashback from Winterfell (another promo still), and then he witnesses the big event in the next episode. Looks like Jon's revival is set for next week. They have enough NW material for one more episode before Jon comes back.

 

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19 minutes ago, Darksky said:

A promo still from episode 3 featuring Bran and Bloodraven in what appears to be TOJ scenery further back up the claim TOJ's next week.

http://8840-presscdn-0-18.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/bran-and-the-three-eyed-crow.jpg

In episode 2 Bran has a flashback from Winterfell (another promo still), and then he witnesses the big event in the next episode. Looks like Jon's revival is set for next week. They have enough NW material for one more episode before Jon comes back.

 

So what I think you are saying is that we should expect Ep 3 to "break the Internet" -- right?

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2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Right, I don't think her being a shadow binder has any bearing on her ability to bring people back to life. That's a R'hollor thing. I was just trying to imagine how her being a shadow binder might make her unable to do what Thoros seemed to be able to do easily. I don't think her being a shadow binder will prevent her from reviving Jon. I thought you were suggesting that it could. 

I think he was stabbed at night and Davos found him just before dawn. Thorne gave them the deadline of nightfall, so nothing's going to happen until then. So I'd imagine he will have been dead for around a day when he's brought back.

That sounds about right. I wonder when Jon will find out though. 

really? i felt like jon was stab really late at night/ early morning. So i could not have been more than a few minutes between stabbing a finding? feel like we got a few hours till the wildlings come. 

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Alright you've convinced me they could delay the resurrection till episode three without it seeming like they're stalling. I still hope we at least get his eyes opening at the end of two. It could even be left ambiguous if he's rising as a wight or not. 

But I still don't think they should tie the reveal of his lineage to his resurrection. Unless Jon himself is somehow going to find out about it the same time the viewers do. Let him fight for Sansa as her bastard brother for a bit and then have him find out. (I'm assuming legitimization as a Stark is off the table, as Stannis is dead and Rob's Will was never a thing.)

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8 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Alright you've convinced me they could delay the resurrection till episode three without it seeming like they're stalling. I still hope we at least get his eyes opening at the end of two. It could even be left ambiguous if he's rising as a wight or not. 

But I still don't think they should tie the reveal of his lineage to his resurrection. Unless Jon himself is somehow going to find out about it the same time the viewers do. Let him fight for Sansa as her bastard brother for a bit and then have him find out. (I'm assuming legitimization as a Stark is off the table, as Stannis is dead and Rob's Will was never a thing.)

Oh, I agree that Jon will not know about his parentage for quite a while. He might not even find out at all until next season. After all, how exactly is Bran supposed to get word to Jon at this point? And while at some point communication between Bran and Jon must happen, I am not sure that it happens this season.

But the key to the timing of the resurrection is that I think that the audience learns of his true parentage before he is resurrected. That order leads to the most emotional impact for the viewer -- finding out who his parents are while still thinking he is dead. So Jon's eyes probably will not open at the end of Ep 2. Rather, when ToJ happens in Ep 3 -- totally from Bran's PoV -- Jon will still be dead. Then at the end of Ep 3, I suspect Jon will be resurrected. The point is to put the audience into an emotional roller coaster. I think that this technique works best if the order of events is as I have suggested. Of course D&D might have a different idea.

I just get the sense that you are getting impatient, and simply want to see Jon back in action ASAP. But keep in mind that his big action is going to be the Battle of the Bastards (also known as Snowbowl or Battle for Winterfell or Battle of Six Armies -- lots of names because it is the biggest event of the season). But that battle is going to happen near the end of the season. So Jon cannot come back too quickly or there are too many episodes with too little for him to do.

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But does anyone actually think he's staying dead? My family members who did not read the books have all been talking about it. Anyone who did think he was dead dead would also probably rethink that position after the Tower of Joy scene. Because why would the show be revealing all this information and suggesting Jon is important if he's dead. That was one of the main reasons everyone initially thought he survived/wouldn't stay dead when Dance first came out.

And yes I am being impatient. Because since we all know where they're going, it's sorta boring waiting for it. I want to get to what happens after, you know?

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RH--

The way that this sort of writing works -- you have to assume that people don't know for sure. Even though you and I are 99.999999999% certain that Jon gets resurrected, I think you would be surprised how many people are not. After all, what was the point of Kit and the producers lying if they believed that everyone really knew the truth? And the ToJ scene might make people start to suspect that he is coming back -- but many just will not be sure till it actually happens. And even if someone knows the resurrection is coming, it still has more emotional impact if it happens only after learning of his true parentage -- and having to wonder how long it will take for Jon to learn the truth. 

I get your impatience. I wish HBO worked like Netflix where all the episodes are released at one time (although it probably would have meant staying up all night and missing a day of work). But unfortunately, we are going to have to be a little patient and let the show catch up to where we know it is going. I think Ep 2 will be better than Ep 1 (the take down of the mutineers in Ep 2 should make it worth it) -- but as I said above, I really think that Ep 3 will "break the Internet." So just 12 days away until the action really heats up.

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Love these last few pages!!

 

Here is how we know Jon will come back; 

1. Sam said, "dont worry about jon, he always comes back'

2.  If he were dead dead, they would not keep his body around for 3 episodes.  Like who else's body do they keep around for more than one episode?  The purpose of him laying on that table is that he will get up from it eventually, there would be no corpse hanging around. What are Davos and co. doing in that room anyway? why are they sending Edd to get people to fight for a dead body? That makes no sense, I know they are his friends, but are friends going to fight and die to defend a corpse? they are defending him in that room because (even though they havent mentioned bringing him back at all) deep down they, like us, know he's coming back.

 

I was certain the end of episode 1 would be his eyes opening, but the way they dragged it out and said almost nothing about him and showed zero previews of him for week 2 makes me agree that he will be waking up at the end of episode 3.  They are really stretching it. Also all the actors are giving interviews telling us to 'get over it', 'he's dead', 'ned stark is also dead' etc etc.  but I know they are all full of shit actors who are acting for the interviews.

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On 4/26/2016 at 5:39 PM, RumHam said:

But does anyone actually think he's staying dead? My family members who did not read the books have all been talking about it. Anyone who did think he was dead dead would also probably rethink that position after the Tower of Joy scene. Because why would the show be revealing all this information and suggesting Jon is important if he's dead. That was one of the main reasons everyone initially thought he survived/wouldn't stay dead when Dance first came out.

And yes I am being impatient. Because since we all know where they're going, it's sorta boring waiting for it. I want to get to what happens after, you know?

I have only encountered 1 or 2 shownly watchers who laugh at me because they are sure he is dead.  But 99% think he's coming back.

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