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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

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7 hours ago, shk12344 said:

I agree 100 percent. My impression was D&D needed someone to free to the Dragons and decided to use Tyrion. So the use of Tyrion was a plot device to  move the story along, not a way to reveal some kind of secret.

If that's all they needed this for, they could have used somebody else like Grey Worm and had his face burnt off in the attempt.

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11 hours ago, RumHam said:

I'm glad they didn't drag it out. That was a really entertaining episode. Seemed like not a moment was wasted. 

ETA: Oh man that preview for next week.

 

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"now it begins."

 

RumHam-- 

So you were right and I was wrong. You called it almost exactly -- Jon's eyes open as the last scene of Ep 2. 

I will now "double down" with a new prediction (that also will probably be wrong). I think that while the battle at ToJ obviously happens in Ep 3, I think the "promise me" conversation happens later -- probably Ep 4.

12 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

AJT indeed. I agree that letting the dragons near (as they have with "friends" of Dany) is different than what they did with Tyrion. In the books, non-Targs tended to the dragons without getting killed, but only Targs were show "affection" from the dragons. These dragons really seemed to like Tyrion -- and it seemed to be more than just letting Tyrion get near them and take care of them.

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19 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

RumHam-- 

So you were right and I was wrong. You called it almost exactly -- Jon's eyes open as the last scene of Ep 2. 

I will now "double down" with a new prediction (that also will probably be wrong). I think that while the battle at ToJ obviously happens in Ep 3, I think the "promise me" conversation happens later -- probably Ep 4.

AJT indeed. I agree that letting the dragons near (as they have with "friends" of Dany) is different than what they did with Tyrion. In the books, non-Targs tended to the dragons without getting killed, but only Targs were show "affection" from the dragons. These dragons really seemed to like Tyrion -- and it seemed to be more than just letting Tyrion get near them and take care of them.

I can't take credit for the eyes opening thing, I saw it suggested somewhere else that the premier could end that way and it seemed like the show's style. 

What I'm wondering is if the Tower of Joy scene next episode is going to be a blatant reveal to Bran and the audience, or just a huge hint like it is in the books. 

Another thing I meant to mention, I wonder if the bit with Melisandre cutting off bits of Jon's hair was a little meta-joke about all the speculation centered around Kit Harrington's lack of a haircut after season five wrapped. 

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10 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I'm not sure what you mean, but the dragons will be fond of anyone who shares blood with Dany. That would be Tyrion and Jon.

Missandei is a Targaryen too? They aparently like her too. Dragons are intelligent creatures that can understand and think.

We need more proof for AJT right now like explaining Aerys and Joanna. They did nothing with them and their history. I'd like to think this is a hint that Tyrion might ride one of them but whether he's a Targaryen. We need more. They need to explain it and not just drop it out of nowhere "Iam a Targaryen" or so. Just like with RLJ...we need clues and explaining it.

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18 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I can't take credit for the eyes opening thing, I saw it suggested somewhere else that the premier could end that way and it seemed like the show's style. 

What I'm wondering is if the Tower of Joy scene next episode is going to be a blatant reveal to Bran and the audience, or just a huge hint like it is in the books. 

Another thing I meant to mention, I wonder if the bit with Melisandre cutting off bits of Jon's hair was a little meta-joke about all the speculation centered around Kit Harrington's lack of a haircut after season five wrapped. 

Well, very few ideas are totally original. The point is that you deduced correctly that it would happen in Ep 2, while I had convinced myself we had to wait until Ep 3. I have repeatedly said that when I am wrong, I will admit it and not try to hide (including the whole AJT issue once we know who is correct on that one). I just wish more people were as willing to admit mistakes. Where are all the people who really thought Jon would stay dead (all 2 of them)?

As to the hair cutting thing, yeah, I had the exact same thought when it happened. As she was cutting the hair, all I could think was that Kit was not allowed to cut his hair, but Mel could. I even started to wonder if she would cut so much that Kit could go forward through the rest of the series with shorter hair -- but alas, I think he is stuck for a few more years with long hair.

Oh, and with respect to what someone above said about the statements that Jon was dead turned out not to be lie -- I basically agree. But -- Kit and some of the producers did lie. They did more than merely say that Jon was really dead. They said that Kit was not in Season 6 at all (other than as a corpse). That was a bald-faced lie -- and an unnecessary one. I really will never understand why they felt the need to lie when the "half truth" of Jon really being dead was good enough. Not that big a deal, but I will be really annoyed if Kit claims he did not lie because all he said was that Jon was dead -- when Kit went beyond that and did tell a lie about his participation in season 6. If Kit comes clean and admits he lied, I will be less annoyed at him.

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1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

(...)

Oh, and with respect to what someone above said about the statements that Jon was dead turned out not to be lie -- I basically agree. But -- Kit and some of the producers did lie. They did more than merely say that Jon was really dead. They said that Kit was not in Season 6 at all (other than as a corpse). That was a bald-faced lie -- and an unnecessary one. I really will never understand why they felt the need to lie when the "half truth" of Jon really being dead was good enough. Not that big a deal, but I will be really annoyed if Kit claims he did not lie because all he said was that Jon was dead -- when Kit went beyond that and did tell a lie about his participation in season 6. If Kit comes clean and admits he lied, I will be less annoyed at him.

Kit has admitted lying and has apologised over it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3568889/I-m-sorry-lying-Kit-Harington-apologises-Game-Thrones-fans-keeping-secret-character-Jon-Snow.html 

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12 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

Thanks for the link. I feel a little better now -- he seemed a bit sheepish over having lied. I still think it was unnecessary, but it is not that big a deal and I will try to let it drop now.

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10 hours ago, Newstar said:

What was emphasized in this episode was that dragons are extremely intelligent. He wasn't "controlling" them; THEY were using HIM to get what they wanted. The only submission involved was his

Agree. They are fearsome predators, so every time someone is left unharmed in their company it's because they've consciously forborn to kill them.  That said, it still does not answer the question why they would refrain from incinerating Tyrion; the Missandei analogy is not equivalent, given that he is a stranger to them -- unless he's not..!

I've been very vocal about my dislike for A+J=T, but I'll admit I'm more and more won over by the evidence.  Perhaps I'm imputing cleverness and subtlety to D&D they do not possess, however there were a few additional literary references I thought I picked up, as follows.

In season four there was a parallel set up between Tyrion and the dragons being unfairly locked up by their family, so when Tyrion remarks that dragons do not do well in captivity, he might as well be speaking from personal experience.  In addition, Tyrion was freed by a further family member, so perhaps there's a parallel there with Tyrion as the other family member of the dragons coming to free them.

Just before the dragons accept Tyrion handling them, he tells them the story about his childhood dream to have a dragon, saying it could be 'a little dragon like me.'  This, taken together with the immediately preceding scene in which Tyrion relates the history of how the Targaryens penned up the dragons until some of them were no bigger than 'cats' is quite suggestive.  From a certain perspective, assuming A+J=T, Tyrion is indeed a small dragon, and moreover a dragon (Targaryen) who looks like a cat (Lannister)!

We might even call those diminutive dragons born of long confinement and abuse:  Dwarf Dragons!

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@Fisch

Yes there are some AJT clues in the show! Notwithstanding last night's episode and Tyrion making friends with Rhaegal and Viserion (read posts above), in season 4 IRRC, in the aSoS scene between Tywin and Tyrion, the wordings of Tywin's change from '(...) since I can not prove you are not my son' to '(...) I raised you as my own son because you are a Lannister', thus possibly giving us a 'you are part of the family - I am not a kinslayer' reason for not killing Tyrion as a babe (Joanna IS a Lannister, remember), and not a 'you are really my son after all' as the novel implies (perhaps not GRRM's desired effect). Also, the timings and the selection of the scenes closely link the revealing of Tywin's sulking against Aerys (Joffrey's sending to bed by Tywin during the Council) to the possibility of Tyrion not being Tywin's son (the scene described above, in the same episode).

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17 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Agree. They are fearsome predators, so every time someone is left unharmed in their company it's because they've consciously forborn to kill them.  That said, it still does not answer the question why they would refrain from incinerating Tyrion; the Missandei analogy is not equivalent, given that he is a stranger to them -- unless he's not..!

I've been very vocal about my dislike for A+J=T, but I'll admit I'm more and more won over by the evidence.  Perhaps I'm imputing cleverness and subtlety to D&D they do not possess, however there were a few additional literary references I thought I picked up, as follows.

In the last season there was a parallel set up between Tyrion and the dragons being unfairly locked up by their family, so when Tyrion remarks that dragons do not do well in captivity, he might as well be speaking from personal experience.  In addition, Tyrion was freed by a further family member, so perhaps there's a parallel there with Tyrion as the other family member of the dragons coming to free them.

Just before the dragons accept Tyrion handling them, he tells them the story about his childhood dream to have a dragon, saying it could be 'a little dragon like me.'  This, taken together with the immediately preceding scene in which Tyrion relates the history of how the Targaryens penned up the dragons until some of them were no bigger than 'cats' is quite suggestive.  From a certain perspective, assuming A+J=T, Tyrion is indeed a small dragon, and moreover a dragon (Targaryen) who looks like a cat (Lannister)!

We might even call those diminutive dragons born of long confinement and abuse:  Dwarf Dragons!

Hehe... read the AJT OP entirely (the hidden sections...)!

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The thing is, I could give a fig whether or not Tyrion is announced as Aerys' bastard on the show.  D&D in all their brilliance might agree with many posters that 2 of the main characters having unknown dragon blood might be a bit redundant and chose to make the focus on Jon and not Tyrion.  That's fine if they want to do that.  What I am interested in, is that he is controlling a dragon and possibly riding one soon.  On the show there has been almost zero mention of valyrian dragonlords and bonding and dragon blood is needed to ride, etc etc.  So If the show does not stick to the same laws as the book in that respect.....whatever, it's fine, the show will butcher what it wants to butcher.  However him becoming a dragon rider on the show, is one of the strongest hints we AJT'ers could possibly add to the list of hints, history and foreshadowing that altogether prove AJT is true.

 

So yeah, the first step to him riding is the way he handled those 2 pissed off dragons last night. Whew I was nervous for him, given what happened to Quentyn, but his dragonblood from the book obviously gave him power on the show and it was awesome.

 

ETA: and how sick was Tyrion's speech while he unchained them?  Almost verbatim from the book about his serious love for dragons since childhood.  Which is something original to his character, book and show.

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3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Missandei is a Targaryen too? They aparently like her too. Dragons are intelligent creatures that can understand and think.

We need more proof for AJT right now like explaining Aerys and Joanna. They did nothing with them and their history. I'd like to think this is a hint that Tyrion might ride one of them but whether he's a Targaryen. We need more. They need to explain it and not just drop it out of nowhere "Iam a Targaryen" or so. Just like with RLJ...we need clues and explaining it.

Like UL said above, in all the short stories we found out that the dragons had stables and stable boys etc. So many people are able to be around the dragons without getting harmed.  The difference is the state these 2 dragons were in.  in the short stories all the dragons were tamed, already subdued by their riders. Rhaegal and Viserion are wild and mean and feel neglected at this point.  And Tyrion shut them down with a simple hand gesture when meeting them for the very first time.  It was impressive to say the least.  Also considering Dany has fed them people before on HBO.

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6 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

If that's all they needed this for, they could have used somebody else like Grey Worm and had his face burnt off in the attempt.

It made more sense to use Tyrion, because he was set up to have  prior knowledge of Dragons.

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4 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

@Fisch

Yes there are some AJT clues in the show! Notwithstanding last night's episode and Tyrion making friends with Rhaegal and Viserion (read posts above), in season 4 IRRC, in the aSoS scene between Tywin and Tyrion, the wordings of Tywin's change from '(...) since I can not prove you are not my son' to '(...) I raised you as my own son because you are a Lannister', thus possibly giving us a 'you are part of the family - I am not a kinslayer' reason for not killing Tyrion as a babe (Joanna IS a Lannister, remember), and not a 'you are really my son after all' as the novel implies (perhaps not GRRM's desired effect). Also, the timings and the selection of the scenes closely link the revealing of Tywin's sulking against Aerys (Joffrey's sending to bed by Tywin during the Council) to the possibility of Tyrion not being Tywin's son (the scene described above, in the same episode).

That is...a very short list.

The show still hasn't seen fit to include anything meaningful about Joanna's relationship with Aerys, or Tywin's relationship with Aerys, or really anything to do with Aerys outside what directly pertains to Robert's Rebellion or his death. If A+J does equal T, then it's hard for me to imagine that, dallying as they have, the showrunners can sell it as a credible reveal. IMO, it'll feel for many viewers as something that came out of nowhere, was a twist for the sake of a twist, and is ultimately cheap. And that may taint the reveal when it happens in the books, however much better it was plotted.

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8 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

If that's all they needed this for, they could have used somebody else like Grey Worm and had his face burnt off in the attempt.

Tyrion is one of the main characters who needs lots of screen time to justify the wage of Peter Dinklage. Obviously they would use Tyrion to free the dragons because what else are they going to show Tyrion doing? 

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1 hour ago, Fisch said:

That is...a very short list.

The show still hasn't seen fit to include anything meaningful about Joanna's relationship with Aerys, or Tywin's relationship with Aerys, or really anything to do with Aerys outside what directly pertains to Robert's Rebellion or his death. If A+J does equal T, then it's hard for me to imagine that, dallying as they have, the showrunners can sell it as a credible reveal. IMO, it'll feel for many viewers as something that came out of nowhere, was a twist for the sake of a twist, and is ultimately cheap. And that may taint the reveal when it happens in the books, however much better it was plotted.

The show list for R+L=J is about this long, and before season 5 basically non-existent.

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6 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Thanks for the link. I feel a little better now -- he seemed a bit sheepish over having lied. I still think it was unnecessary, but it is not that big a deal and I will try to let it drop now.

It was just so bad because we all knew they were all lying the whole time. I wonder what kind of 'lying to the press' counseling they had to put Kit through before all the lie-interviews?

'It all happened exactly as (I)we had forseen.'--The Emperor

 

So let's talk about this.  They are clearly combining Quentyn and BBP into TYrion's character.  But the only bit of Quentyn that made it in was the plan to go down and free the dragons.  The BBP part was the fact that the dragons are totally cool with him, even submissive and kind to a total stranger, who definitely has dragonlord blood.  Where else could the show be going with this besides, Tyrion riding a dragon, and what else could that mean for the books besides AJT?

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6 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So let's talk about this.  They are clearly combining Quentyn and BBP into TYrion's character.  But the only bit of Quentyn that made it in was the plan to go down and free the dragons.  The BBP part was the fact that the dragons are totally cool with him, even submissive and kind to a total stranger, who definitely has dragonlord blood.  Where else could the show be going with this besides, Tyrion riding a dragon, and what else could that mean for the books besides AJT?

I really don't think that the show writers cared even one bit about BBP and his arc. They have cut him as an unneeded character like many others, they wouldn't think about adapting such a minor thing as the dragons being ok with him. Tyrion managing to free the dragons easily like that is either D&D showing how knowledgeable and pro he or something else but definitely not adapting BBP in him. I personally believe it's nothing more than D&D giving Tyrion something to do and all that "dragons are more intelligent than some men talk" is just a way to allow Tyrion to free the dragons safely. If it's not and if it was really Targaryen blood in him, then Tyrion was kinda mistaken and since when show Tyrion is wrong about anything?

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There's no proof so far that show!Missandei doesn't have Valyrian blood. 

I'm more convinced than ever that AJT is going to be confirmed and a bunch of people are going to lose their minds over the idea that it supposedly "ruins" the relationship of Tyrion and Tywin instead of adding complexity to it. 

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